Immigrants take over California.

[TLK Valentine]

Ah, yes! It goes something like, "Don't mess with Texas, including crossing over the border onto our property and vandalizing and stealing". Although I'm pretty sure Texans aren't the only people in America who are opposed to trespassers doing things like that. https://www.texasmonthly.com/politics/the-battle-for-the-border/

And the people of Texas hate that so much, they'll happily and dutifully hand over their land to the feds for the promise to stop it... and a few magic beans.

Need I remind you that this is the same Texas that mobilized their National Guard to safeguard against an "invasion" from our own government?

Texas Governor Deploys State Guard To Stave Off Obama Takeover

But of course, that was a couple of years ago... I'm sure that by now Texas has learned its proper place... at Donald's feet.

 

[TLK Valentine]

They will now enter with impunity.

Why?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Why?

Precedent.

 

[MrSpikey]

In the Constitution of that State, yes.

Ok, so you view State constitutions as part of the "[C]onstitutional system, which is the basis of the American republic."

Surely then, you should be supporting the voting arrangements in these States, rather than decrying e.g. 'Pure "democracy" (voting)' as "'mob rule', which seems to be the case in California"?

 

[MrSpikey]

Do you believe that nations of people are actual things that really exist?

<Snip>

Yes, these are things that exist. Citizenship can be acquired via birth or other arrangements, depending on the nation.

But it could be that you do recognize the existence of nations, in which case explanation is possible.

Yes, I'm hopeful you will eventually provide an explanation as to what you think distinguishes Americans from "Americans", as highlighted in your posts, that I've asked for a couple of times now.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Precedent.

What precedent, and how does it apply here?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

What precedent, and how does it apply here?

The precedent of granting amnesty every time the illegals begin to pile up and become an issue.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Ok, so you view State constitutions as part of the "[C]onstitutional system, which is the basis of the American republic."

Surely then, you should be supporting the voting arrangements in these States, rather than decrying e.g. 'Pure "democracy" (voting)' as "'mob rule', which seems to be the case in California"?

Many states have ballot initiatives (referendums), but they often only serve the narrow interests of special interest groups.

" ....California imported direct democracy almost a century ago as a “safety valve” in case government should become corrupt. The process began to malfunction only relatively recently. With Proposition 13, it stopped being a valve and instead became almost the entire engine."

"....Madison and Hamilton warn against the dangerous “passions” of the mob and the threat of “minority factions” (ie, special interests) seizing the democratic process."

The perils of extreme democracy

 

[MoonlessNight]

<Snip>

Yes, these are things that exist. Citizenship can be acquired via birth or other arrangements, depending on the nation.

I asked about nations, not citizenship. The fact that you seem to think that the terms are synonymous heavily implies that you believe that no, nations are not real (with only political states being real).

Yes, I'm hopeful you will eventually provide an explanation as to what you think distinguishes Americans from "Americans", as highlighted in your posts, that I've asked for a couple of times now.

And I can only give you the explanation if you let me know the context you are working from. You never answered me if the German instructor in my hypothetical example was really "Japanese" in every extent that his native neighbors were. This is an important question to answer, as it will show whether you can see the distinction that I'm getting at the first place.

If you lack the necessary context to understand the explanation, it would be like trying to explain to somehow colorblind how a red dot and a green dot are different. No matter how you explain it he won't be able to see the difference, and will likely assume that you mean something other than what you really are saying, because he will try to interpret the problem in terms of differences that he can see.

Here's another example which might help to see if you get the distinction between nation and state: Does it make sense in any way to say that the Jews in diaspora are members of the nation of Israel, or of the Hebrew? Or are they merely members of the countries in which they claim citizenship?

 

[FireDragon76]

California's economy is dependent on cheap labor. Lots of businesses there, esp. agriculture, don't want to lose cheap migrant labor. So they have more friendly attitudes towards illegal and undocumented immigrants.

 

[TLK Valentine]

The precedent of granting amnesty every time the illegals begin to pile up and become an issue.

Sounds like you've got the causal relationship backwards -- first they pile up, then we grant amnesty.

Even if it was that simple (and it's not), how does granting a path (and not a short or easy one) to citizenship for people we've all agreed are not guilty of any crime they committed, willingly turned themselves over to the government, have followed every rule we set out for them, and have contributed more to the economy and tax system (in confirmed dollars) than our own president, make things worse?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Sounds like you've got the causal relationship backwards -- first they pile up, then we grant amnesty.

Even if it was that simple (and it's not), how does granting a path (and not a short or easy one) to citizenship for people we've all agreed are not guilty of any crime they committed, willingly turned themselves over to the government, have followed every rule we set out for them, and have contributed more to the economy and tax system (in confirmed dollars) than our own president, make things worse?

Pile up followed by amnesty followed by pile up followed by amnesty, etc. Place the commas anywhere you want.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Pile up followed by amnesty followed by pile up followed by amnesty, etc. Place the commas anywhere you want.

But the amnesties aren't causing the "pile ups" -- eliminating them stops nothing.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

But the amnesties aren't causing the "pile ups" -- eliminating them stops nothing.

I believe amnesty-leading-to-citizenship will create incentive to come to America, legally if possible, illegally if necessary.

 

[TLK Valentine]

I believe amnesty-leading-to-citizenship will create incentive to come to America, legally if possible, illegally if necessary.

I believe opportunity and prosperity will create far more incentive to come to America, legally if possible, illegally if necessary.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I believe opportunity and prosperity will create far more incentive to come to America, legally if possible, illegally if necessary.

I think you can combine those incentives. The main thing is to limit their entry. We have more foreigners now that can possibly properly assimilate.

 

[TLK Valentine]

I think you can combine those incentives. The main thing is to limit their entry. We have more foreigners now that can possibly properly assimilate.

I think one is negligible in light of the other. The main thing is that America is far more resilient than some people give it credit for.

 

[Aldebaran]

And the people of Texas hate that so much, they'll happily and dutifully hand over their land to the feds for the promise to stop it... and a few magic beans.

Probably for a sale of their property. Let's see if they go along with it or not.

Need I remind you that this is the same Texas that mobilized their National Guard to safeguard against an "invasion" from our own government?

Texas Governor Deploys State Guard To Stave Off Obama Takeover

Thanks for showing what Obama's policies and attitude toward them caused. Wasn't much of a uniter, was he?

But of course, that was a couple of years ago... I'm sure that by now Texas has learned its proper place... at Donald's feet.

Don't be bitterly clinging to Obama and his thankfully past administration. Let's move forward, shall we?

 

[Aldebaran]

I believe opportunity and prosperity will create far more incentive to come to America, legally if possible, illegally if necessary.

Just as a bank that has more money in its vault is more likely to attract robbers.

 

[Speedwell]

I think you can combine those incentives. The main thing is to limit their entry. We have more foreigners now that can possibly properly assimilate.

How many is that, then? What do you mean by "assimilate?"