Immaculate Conception???

[1stcenturylady]

Actually, given your premise of sin only being passed on by the male, it blows your particular novel argument against the Immaculate Conception back to the drawing board.

For if it is only 'fitting' in Catholic theology that Mary be sinless, and not 'required' that Mary be sinless, all you posted proves nothing about the Immaculate Conception. You would have to go back to the more 'traditional' Protestant prooftexts against the Immaculate Conception.

But I use the term 'traditional' in a more limited way because even Luther believed in the Immaculate Conception, so the modern Protestant view isn't really all that traditional.

I don't see any sin in Catholics believing the Immaculate Conception tradition. That is not a problem for me. It just wasn't necessary to make up the story in the first place, but it is harmless.

It is how being born of God applies to US that matters.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I don't see any sin in Catholics believing the Immaculate Conception tradition. That is not a problem for me. It just wasn't necessary to make up the story in the first place, but it is harmless.

It is how being born of God applies to US that matters.

Point is it is not 'necessary' at all, but it is 'fitting'. God can make sinless people out of clay so making a sinless Son from a sinful Mary would not have been anything hard at all.

 

[chevyontheriver]

How do you understand 1 John 3:5-9 then?

Well, I sin from time to time, actually on a regular basis. I need to keep going back to God for a cleanup all the time. That's my lived experience. I go astray and I am pulled back and I go astray again. Wash, rinse, dry, wear, repeat. I think it is wonderful that you do not sin, but I'm not there yet.

 

[PaulCyp1]

Yes, one can come up with all kinds of misguided arguments, which is why there are over 6,000 conflicting denominations of Protestantism. However, the fact remains that Jesus Christ founded ONE Church 2,000 years ago, said it was to remain ONE, and promised that ONE Church, and no other, "The Holy Spirit will guide you into ALL truth", and "WHATSOEVER you bind upon Earth is bound in Heaven", and "He who hears you hears Me". Therefore, either Jesus lied, or the Immaculate Conception is bound in Heaven, guaranteed true by Jesus Christ Himself.

 

[Sketcher]

Yes, one can come up with all kinds of misguided arguments, which is why there are over 6,000 conflicting denominations of Protestantism. However, the fact remains that Jesus Christ founded ONE Church 2,000 years ago, said it was to remain ONE, and promised that ONE Church, and no other, "The Holy Spirit will guide you into ALL truth", and "WHATSOEVER you bind upon Earth is bound in Heaven", and "He who hears you hears Me". Therefore, either Jesus lied, or the Immaculate Conception is bound in Heaven, guaranteed true by Jesus Christ Himself.

Or you're mistaken about what Jesus meant by his church.

 

[joymercy]

Yes, she did need a savior, and she had a savior.
And she was the first to admit it: My spirit rejoices in God my Savior. She never sinned; that is true.

But that is not to say that she did not need a savior. How could she be sinless without a savior?

The problem that comes up here is how everyone thinks about the salvific power of God as running along our cosmic timeline. It doesn’t.

God exists outside of time, and thus, to say that Mary could be born without sin even before her Son, who made that very thing possible, was born is not nonsense.

Jesus Christ is, after all, the “Lamb of God who was slain from the foundation of the world.” And by “foundation,” we mean beginning, and by “world,” we mean universe.

Thus, Christ, being God, sacrificed himself before the universe was ever made, because with God, there is no time.

And thus, Mary can be saved by her Son’s sacrifice even before she is born

 

[chilehed]

...the actual reason for my writing this is to correct the preconceived idea that caused the Romans Catholics to believe that it was necessary that Mary, herself, be born without sin, in order to be worthy to conceive Jesus.

Then you wasted a lot of time correcting something that's not actually a teaching of the Catholic Church.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Well, I sin from time to time, actually on a regular basis. I need to keep going back to God for a cleanup all the time. That's my lived experience. I go astray and I am pulled back and I go astray again. Wash, rinse, dry, wear, repeat. I think it is wonderful that you do not sin, but I'm not there yet.

I certainly was weak before being baptized with the Holy Spirit. In fact, I went to church for nearly 30 years before that happened. In fact, I couldn't stop willfully sinning, but when the Holy Spirit entered me, an overwhelming joy and strength of character happened in an instant, and I haven't willfully sinned since. That is what is meant in 1 John 3:5-9 and Romans 6:2. After that the Holy Spirit keeps watering the fruit He planted in us. If it can happen for me, it can happen for you too.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Then you wasted a lot of time correcting something that's not actually a teaching of the Catholic Church.

Well, you would know if it applies or not.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Point is it is not 'necessary' at all, but it is 'fitting'. God can make sinless people out of clay so making a sinless Son from a sinful Mary would not have been anything hard at all.

But doesn't Immaculate Conception refer to Mary's birth? Or to Jesus' birth? I thought it was a story that Mary was born without sin. True or not?

 

[1stcenturylady]

There is nothing to figure out. Only the Lord Jesus Christ was sinless. For every other human being God says "ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God" and "that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God." (Rom 3:19,23).

Read past Romans 3 and you will see that through Jesus He makes it possible by putting His Own Spirit into us, that we can overcome willful sinning. Romans 6 says we are dead to sin. Do you believe that?

 

[1stcenturylady]

Actually, given your premise of sin only being passed on by the male, it blows your particular novel argument against the Immaculate Conception back to the drawing board.

For if it is only 'fitting' in Catholic theology that Mary be sinless, and not 'required' that Mary be sinless, all you posted proves nothing about the Immaculate Conception. You would have to go back to the more 'traditional' Protestant prooftexts against the Immaculate Conception.

But I use the term 'traditional' in a more limited way because even Luther believed in the Immaculate Conception, so the modern Protestant view isn't really all that traditional.

Why back to the drawing board? In Jesus' case, His Father was the sinless God, so Jesus was sinless, and it didn't matter that Mary was not.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Yes, one can come up with all kinds of misguided arguments, which is why there are over 6,000 conflicting denominations of Protestantism. However, the fact remains that Jesus Christ founded ONE Church 2,000 years ago, said it was to remain ONE, and promised that ONE Church, and no other, "The Holy Spirit will guide you into ALL truth", and "WHATSOEVER you bind upon Earth is bound in Heaven", and "He who hears you hears Me". Therefore, either Jesus lied, or the Immaculate Conception is bound in Heaven, guaranteed true by Jesus Christ Himself.

So as a person in the ONE Church is 1 John 3:5-9 true for you?

 

[1stcenturylady]

Yes, she did need a savior, and she had a savior.
And she was the first to admit it: My spirit rejoices in God my Savior. She never sinned; that is true.

But that is not to say that she did not need a savior. How could she be sinless without a savior?

The problem that comes up here is how everyone thinks about the salvific power of God as running along our cosmic timeline. It doesn’t.

God exists outside of time, and thus, to say that Mary could be born without sin even before her Son, who made that very thing possible, was born is not nonsense.

Jesus Christ is, after all, the “Lamb of God who was slain from the foundation of the world.” And by “foundation,” we mean beginning, and by “world,” we mean universe.

Thus, Christ, being God, sacrificed himself before the universe was ever made, because with God, there is no time.

And thus, Mary can be saved by her Son’s sacrifice even before she is born

Nice theory, and novel, but is there scripture to back it up specifically?

 

[Micah888]

Read past Romans 3 and you will see that through Jesus He makes it possible by putting His Own Spirit into us, that we can overcome willful sinning. Romans 6 says we are dead to sin. Do you believe that?

That's not the point. It is the matter of being conceived and born sinless. Only Christ Himself was supernaturally conceived and was ABSOLUTELY sinless.

For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens (Heb 7:26).

 

[1stcenturylady]

That's not the point. It is the matter of being conceived and born sinless. Only Christ Himself was supernaturally conceived and was ABSOLUTELY sinless.

For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens (Heb 7:26).

Can you answer my question if you believe Romans 6:2? How about 1 John 3:5-9? Does it describe you?

 

[TuxAme]

That does not necessarily make it true. If Mary was sinless, she would not have spoken of "God MY Savior".

So Mary's sinlessness came from someone besides God, then? Is that what you're saying? Someone else is her savior?

You can save someone before they fall into a pit, you know.

 

[TuxAme]

How do you understand 1 John 3:5-9 then?

1 John 1:8?

It's a disservice to everyone to orphan verses.

 

[1stcenturylady]

1 John 1:8?

It's a disservice to everyone to orphan verses.

Except you don't know the difference between a verse about an unsaved person without the Holy Spirit of Truth that needs the next verse to be saved and freed from all sin, and John's verses describing those in Christ that are already saved because they confessed their sin and were cleansed once and for all of their past sins. And then no longer sin. Good grief! But you are right to NOT orphan verses that go together with the next verse!

Unfortunately you are not the only person that doesn't know how to understand scripture and uses 1 John 1:8 to justify their own sin! The ignorance in the Church is rampant! And it starts in the pulpit! Anytime I post 1 John 3:5-9 someone posts 1 John 1:8. Was John confused and contradicting himself? [Staff edit]. Look at 1 John 1:6. Does that describe a Christian too? Wake up people! If your priest doesn't know the word of God, study for yourself!

1 John 1:8-9
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and there is no truth in us. 9 But if we confess our sins to God, he will keep his promise and do what is right: he will forgive us our sins and purify us from all our wrongdoing.

Do you understand what that means? It means you are no longer a SINNER.

For your information verse 7 is about a Christian. Notice they have the light/Holy Spirit of Truth

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Study to show thyself approved. "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Friend, just keep sinning and see where you end up.

Revelation 22:11
11 He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”

Two paths to chose from. The narrow path leads to heaven. The wide path leads to hell.

You must be born again of God with a new nature that does not sin. Romans 6:2; Romans 8:9

1 John 3:5-9
5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

 

[chevyontheriver]

But doesn't Immaculate Conception refer to Mary's birth? Or to Jesus' birth? I thought it was a story that Mary was born without sin. True or not?

True. Yes, of course. But there is a common misunderstanding that the Immaculate Conception of Mary was 'necessary' so Jesus would in turn be born sinless. That is NOT the case. Never was Catholic teaching that Mary HAD TO BE sinless for Jesus to be sinless. Your presumption also was that it would be required, but it is not required. It is in the class of 'nice to have' and not 'needed'.