Immaculate Conception???

[chevyontheriver]

Why back to the drawing board? In Jesus' case, His Father was the sinless God, so Jesus was sinless, and it didn't matter that Mary was not.

Wasn't your argument against the sinlessness of Mary that it was unnecessary because sin is inherited from the father? But then we tell you that we never thought the sinlessness of Mary was necessary for Jesus to be born sinless.

 

[chilehed]

Why back to the drawing board?

Because your premise is that it's a Catholic idea that Mary had to be sinless in order to give birth to Christ, but that's not a Catholic idea at all. It's a Protestant idea about what Catholics believe.

 

[bcbsr]

This post is titled Immaculate Conception??? but the actual reason for my writing this is to correct the preconceived idea that caused the Romans Catholics to believe that it was necessary or fitting that Mary, herself, be born without sin, to bear Jesus. The fictional story that turned into a "holy tradition" was not necessary because Mary was a woman...

I also want to show why this is so important for us, so read to the end.

In the Garden of Eden, when Eve was deceived by the serpent and took a bite of the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, nothing happened to her. But when she gave the fruit to Adam and he took a bite, BOTH of their eyes were opened and they saw their nakedness.

Eve was deceived into thinking she would be like God, but Adam willfully sinned, knowing full well it was disobedience against God. This is why the original sin is always placed on Adam. And because Eve was deceived, God put the man as head over the woman. This is also why in the second commandment, Exodus 20:5 and Exodus 34:7, the mother is not mentioned, only the father. "For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me," Otherwise the commandment would have been "parents" to include the woman.

The theory of the immaculate conception is not found in scripture, but was thought up because of their human reasoning that the sins of the mother would have been passed on, when in actuality Jesus did not receive a carnal nature from His mother for the simple reason she was a woman, and with God as His Father, even as a child Jesus was sinless, therefore, even though He was tempted in all things, He never sinned.

This is also why God is always referred to as male, and not female, or even "it." It may also be why pagan religions have goddesses with a child. Satan counterfeits everything of God and reverses it, perverts it, or makes it upside down, like the upside down crucifix.

Now why is this important to us? Because when we are born again, we are born of God. Romans 6:2 says we are dead to sin. Romans 8:9 says we are not in the flesh/our carnal nature if we have the Holy Spirit in us (how we are born again). And this is why 1 John 3:5-9 is TRUTH we should test ourselves against:

5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Remember, that this life is our testing ground to be perfected. Hebrews 12:14 says "14 Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord"

Revelation 22:11 He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”

Another point along similar lines is if Mary had to have been without sin, wouldn't her mother also had to have been without sin? And you could continue on that loop all the way back to Eve. It just doesn't make logical sense to begin with.

 

[dqhall]

Because your premise is that it's a Catholic idea that Mary had to be sinless in order to give birth to Christ, but that's not a Catholic idea at all. It's a Protestant idea about what Catholics believe.

Mary was a virgin who was betrothed to marry Joseph. They had not consummated their union. It was not a sin for Mary to have Jesus conceived of the Holy Spirit. I would not argue that Mary was perfect. I would not want to argue about her imperfections either. Some assume all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Mary is assumed to be righteous.

 

[Fidelibus]

Unfortunately you are not the only person that doesn't know how to understand scripture and uses 1 John 1:8 to justify their own sin! The ignorance in the Church is rampant! And it starts in the pulpit! Anytime I post 1 John 3:5-9 someone posts 1 John 1:8. Was John confused and contradicting himself? [Staff edit]. Look at 1 John 1:6. Does that describe a Christian too? Wake up people! If your priest doesn't know the word of God, study for yourself!

Interesting..... So, do you consider your "understanding" and "interpretation" of Scripture absolute and without error? (infallible) If not, would you be willing to admit your "understanding" and "interpretation" of the passages you posted here (or Scripture in general) could be in error?

 

[1stcenturylady]

True. Yes, of course. But there is a common misunderstanding that the Immaculate Conception of Mary was 'necessary' so Jesus would in turn be born sinless. That is NOT the case. Never was Catholic teaching that Mary HAD TO BE sinless for Jesus to be sinless. Your presumption also was that it would be required, but it is not required. It is in the class of 'nice to have' and not 'needed'.

So they just made up the story because it would be nice? Forgive me, but that is worse than I thought. "Let's not have one God who is sinless, let's have two!"

 

[chilehed]

Mary was a virgin who was betrothed to marry Joseph. They had not consummated their union. It was not a sin for Mary to have Jesus conceived of the Holy Spirit. I would not argue that Mary was perfect. I would not want to argue about her imperfections either. Some assume all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Mary is assumed to be righteous.

I have no idea what this has to do with anything I said.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Wasn't your argument against the sinlessness of Mary that it was unnecessary because sin is inherited from the father? But then we tell you that we never thought the sinlessness of Mary was necessary for Jesus to be born sinless.

In part, but small. My main focus in the OP is on the Father God and US. That when we are born again of God, which is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, we are given that sinless nature He has.

1 John 3:5-9
5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Another point along similar lines is if Mary had to have been without sin, wouldn't her mother also had to have been without sin? And you could continue on that loop all the way back to Eve. It just doesn't make logical sense to begin with.

Actually, it would be her father would have had to be sinless. That's the partial point of the OP. "sins of the father" not mother, all the way back to the Creator. That's a better lineage than Joseph! LOL

 

[1stcenturylady]

Interesting..... So, do you consider your "understanding" and "interpretation" of Scripture absolute and without error? (infallible) If not, would you be willing to admit your "understanding" and "interpretation" of the passages you posted here (or Scripture in general) could be in error?

I have scriptural authority. What do you have? But as I have said, my main focus is on you and me. 1 John 3:5-9

5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

That is Father God, not Mother Nature. LOL

 

[Halbhh]

This post is titled Immaculate Conception??? but the actual reason for my writing this is to correct the preconceived idea that caused the Romans Catholics to believe that it was necessary or fitting that Mary, herself, be born without sin, to bear Jesus. The fictional story that turned into a "holy tradition" was not necessary because Mary was a woman...

I also want to show why this is so important for us, so read to the end.

In the Garden of Eden, when Eve was deceived by the serpent and took a bite of the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, nothing happened to her. But when she gave the fruit to Adam and he took a bite, BOTH of their eyes were opened and they saw their nakedness.

Eve was deceived into thinking she would be like God, but Adam willfully sinned, knowing full well it was disobedience against God. This is why the original sin is always placed on Adam. And because Eve was deceived, God put the man as head over the woman. This is also why in the second commandment, Exodus 20:5 and Exodus 34:7, the mother is not mentioned, only the father. "For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me," Otherwise the commandment would have been "parents" to include the woman.

The theory of the immaculate conception is not found in scripture, but was thought up because of their human reasoning that the sins of the mother would have been passed on, when in actuality Jesus did not receive a carnal nature from His mother for the simple reason she was a woman, and with God as His Father, even as a child Jesus was sinless, therefore, even though He was tempted in all things, He never sinned.

This is also why God is always referred to as male, and not female, or even "it." It may also be why pagan religions have goddesses with a child. Satan counterfeits everything of God and reverses it, perverts it, or makes it upside down, like the upside down crucifix.

Now why is this important to us? Because when we are born again, we are born of God. Romans 6:2 says we are dead to sin. Romans 8:9 says we are not in the flesh/our carnal nature if we have the Holy Spirit in us (how we are born again). And this is why 1 John 3:5-9 is TRUTH we should test ourselves against:

5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Remember, that this life is our testing ground to be perfected. Hebrews 12:14 says "14 Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord"

Revelation 22:11 He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”

While it's good to keep in mind several things you point out, also we can keep in mind Ezekiel chapter 18... no sins of the parents counted against the offspring.

 

[Micah888]

Because your premise is that it's a Catholic idea that Mary had to be sinless in order to give birth to Christ, but that's not a Catholic idea at all. It's a Protestant idea about what Catholics believe.

The Catholic idea was to make Mary the Queen of Heaven and Co-Redemptrix, therefore she had to be sinless. But Scripture does not support either of these ideas.

 

[Phil 1:21]

Because your premise is that it's a Catholic idea that Mary had to be sinless in order to give birth to Christ, but that's not a Catholic idea at all. It's a Protestant idea about what Catholics believe.

Catechism of the Catholic Church
The Immaculate Conception

490 To become the mother of the Savior, Mary "was enriched by God with gifts appropriate to such a role."132 The angel Gabriel at the moment of the annunciation salutes her as "full of grace".133 In fact, in order for Mary to be able to give the free assent of her faith to the announcement of her vocation, it was necessary that she be wholly borne by God's grace.

Catechism of the Catholic Church - "Conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary"

 

[1stcenturylady]

While it's good to keep in mind several things you point out, also we can keep in mind Ezekiel chapter 18... no sins of the parents counted against the offspring.

True. I truly believe God was being very symbolic in the second commandment for a greater truth. Hierarchy, and the fact that Jesus was sinless, not because Mary was sinless or not, but that God is, and when we are born again of the Spirit, we can be too. Even the 4th commandment was symbolic of our rest in Jesus. It points to grace.

These symbolic things in the Old Testament point to the REAL substance revealed in the New Testament.

 

[Micah888]

Catechism of the Catholic Church
The Immaculate Conception

While the CCC is somewhat vague, the teaching (according to New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia) is more explicit:

The formal active essence of original sin was not removed from her soul, as it is removed from others by baptism; it was excluded, it never was in her soul.

So, if we are to take this as stated, Mary was different from any other human being, and made just like Adam. Except, that the Bible does NOT teach any such thing. It is purely man-made.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I hope that some of you understand the spiritual message of the OP. So far, none of you have.

 

[chilehed]

The Catholic idea was to make Mary the Queen of Heaven and Co-Redemptrix, therefore she had to be sinless. But Scripture does not support either of these ideas.

You don't know what you're talking about.

 

[chilehed]

Catechism of the Catholic Church
The Immaculate Conception

490 To become the mother of the Savior, Mary "was enriched by God with gifts appropriate to such a role."132 The angel Gabriel at the moment of the annunciation salutes her as "full of grace".133 In fact, in order for Mary to be able to give the free assent of her faith to the announcement of her vocation, it was necessary that she be wholly borne by God's grace.

Catechism of the Catholic Church - "Conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary"

Notice that it doesn't say anything like "Mary had to be sinless in order to give birth to Christ".

 

[1stcenturylady]

Notice that it doesn't say anything like "Mary had to be sinless in order to give birth to Christ".

Just curious: What was RCC purpose of making Mary perpetually a virgin, when scripture implies only until she gave birth to Jesus?

 

[☦Marius☦]

The Catholic idea was to make Mary the Queen of Heaven and Co-Redemptrix, therefore she had to be sinless. But Scripture does not support either of these ideas.

“And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; and she was with child; and she cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.”

You can doubt that Mary is co-redemptrix, which isn't even RC dogma if I'm not mistaken- but I don't think you can argue that she isn't the Queen of heaven.

It is blasphemous to think that God would consumate with a woman out of wedlock, and therefore we must assume that Mary was the bride of God, and since the God is King, then Mary is queen.

The question is whether she was sinless however. The church fathers do not say and so the EO does not take an official stance. We certainly believe she was ever virgin, and sinless after she was purified by the conception of Christ, but beforehand is speculation.

Most Orthodox including myself believe she was in perfect submission early in childhood and that is why she was chosen, and why she was able to submit and become the perfect Eve. You must also think that in Order for Christ to keep the law and also obey his mother, which is part of the law- she could not have ever asked him to do something sinful, which in itself would be an argument for her latter sinlessness.