• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Immaculate Conception

Status
Not open for further replies.

kepha31

Regular Member
Jun 15, 2007
1,819
595
73
✟51,939.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
In Relationship
Never suggested such a thing. My only comment was regarding your quoting of Aquinas in support of the Catholic dogma of the Immaculate Conception when he himself opposed the dogma. You seem to have read into that an awful lot of additional stuff which I had not, and would not have suggested. I have not read Aquinas for a long time but do remember some things clearly. You give the impression that you yourself have only read the bits quoted in the articles you link to.
You are the one claiming Aquinas opposed the dogma (before the dogma was developed.) when the facts show he did no such thing. This is my last comment on the matter, you can have the last word.

A: What the Protestant apologist (or you) said is a classic example of a half-truth. Evangelicals often use the fact that Aquinas (unlike others of his age) did not believe that Mary was entirely sanctified from the moment of her conception to imply that she committed actual, personal sin–as Protestants assert. However, nothing could be further from the truth. Even though Aquinas did not claim that Mary was sanctified from the moment of her conception, he did claim that she was sanctified before her birth, and so never committed personal sin (for unborn children commit no personal sin; cf. Rom. 9:11

For a Protestant (or you) to knowingly push this claim is deceptive on three fronts:

1) It suggests that Aquinas’s views ought to be held to (on those rare occasions) when he disagrees with what the Church has since established as true, but the views of no one theologian, even an Aquinas, may be held in preference to what the Church later establishes. Aquinas’s views–as he himself would insist–simply cease to count as evidence concerning what a Catholic should believe once the Church has infallibly determined otherwise.

2) The fact is that Aquinas did hold to Mary’s entire personal sinlessness, which is what Protestants really object to. They are not concerned about what Aquinas was looking at–whether she was free from each and every stain of original sin during a window of time prior to her birth. That is a trivial matter to them compared to the question of whether Mary committed actual, personal sin during her life. That is what they are obsessed about and which will get them hopping up and down issuing charges of heresy, claiming that a sinless life makes Mary out to be God (as if it would make us God when we have been entirely sanctified and are leading totally sinless lives). When Protestants say that Aquinas didn’t believe in the Immaculate Conception but fail to say that he believed in her sinless life, they are picking at something that is from their position a nit and omitting the fact that Aquinas is not on their in the thing which really concerns them.

3) Since Protestants (or you) have identified the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception with the doctrine of Mary’s personal sinlessness, it is deceptive of them to say that Aquinas did not believe in the Immaculate Conception because this will imply to their audience–and to anyone else who doesn’t have a good grasp on the doctrine–that he believed Mary sinned, which is simply not true. They will thus mislead their audience into thinking Aquinas said something he didn’t, and to do that knowingly is deception, plain and simple.

In any event, here is what Aquinas said (Summa Theologiae III:27:4):

“I answer that, God so prepares and endows those, whom He chooses for some particular office, that they are rendered capable of fulfilling it, according to 2 Cor. 3:6 : ‘(Who) hath made us fit ministers of the New Testament.’ Now the Blessed Virgin was chosen by God to be His Mother. Therefore there can be no doubt that God, by His grace, made her worthy of that office, according to the words spoken to her by the angel (Lk. 1:30 ,31 ): ‘Thou hast found grace with God: behold thou shalt conceive,’ etc. But she would not have been worthy to be the Mother of God, if she had ever sinned. First, because the honor of the parents reflects on the child, according to Prov. 17:6 : ‘The glory of children are their fathers’: and consequently, on the other hand, the Mother’s shame would have reflected on her Son. Secondly, because of the singular affinity between her and Christ, who took flesh from her: and it is written (2 Cor. 6:15 ): ‘What concord hath Christ with Belial?’ Thirdly, because of the singular manner in which the Son of God, who is the ‘Divine Wisdom’ (1 Cor. 1:24 ) dwelt in her, not only in her soul but in her womb. And it is written (Wis. 1:4 ): ‘Wisdom will not enter into a malicious soul, nor dwell in a body subject to sins.’​

“We must therefore confess simply that the Blessed Virgin committed no actual sin, neither mortal nor venial; so that what is written (Cant 4:7 ) is fulfilled: ‘Thou art all fair, O my love, and there is not a spot in thee,’ etc. “

Thus you should never tolerate someone to say that Aquinas endorsed the idea that Mary was sinful. He absolutely and unequivocally did not, and you should ask any Protestant who says this whether he has actually read what Aquinas said on the subject or whether he is repeating erroneous claims made in anti-Catholic sources. If he is doing the latter, he is repeating gossip. If he is doing the former, and really does know what Aquinas said, then he is being deceptive.

Aquinas on the Immaculate Conception

enough of this.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Mountainmike
Upvote 0

Geralt

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 9, 2016
793
259
GB
✟67,832.00
Country
Philippines
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
'mary was sinless or became sinless' - it's invented doctrine grounded in speculation & mysticism.
unbiblical and heresy. dont waste your time.

Hello,

I don't come from a Catholic background, and would appreciate hearing some of the scriptures and church doctrine that outlines the immaculate conception. It's a topic of which I am fairly ignorant, and even the purpose of the doctrine (as I understand it) is probably off-base.

Thank you, and God bless
 
Upvote 0

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
23,796
14,246
59
Sydney, Straya
✟1,428,294.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
You are the one claiming Aquinas opposed the dogma (before the dogma was developed.) when the facts show he did no such thing. This is my last comment on the matter, you can have the last word.

A: What the Protestant apologist (or you) said is a classic example of a half-truth. Evangelicals often use the fact that Aquinas (unlike others of his age) did not believe that Mary was entirely sanctified from the moment of her conception to imply that she committed actual, personal sin–as Protestants assert. However, nothing could be further from the truth. Even though Aquinas did not claim that Mary was sanctified from the moment of her conception, he did claim that she was sanctified before her birth, and so never committed personal sin (for unborn children commit no personal sin; cf. Rom. 9:11

For a Protestant (or you) to knowingly push this claim is deceptive on three fronts:

1) It suggests that Aquinas’s views ought to be held to (on those rare occasions) when he disagrees with what the Church has since established as true, but the views of no one theologian, even an Aquinas, may be held in preference to what the Church later establishes. Aquinas’s views–as he himself would insist–simply cease to count as evidence concerning what a Catholic should believe once the Church has infallibly determined otherwise.

2) The fact is that Aquinas did hold to Mary’s entire personal sinlessness, which is what Protestants really object to. They are not concerned about what Aquinas was looking at–whether she was free from each and every stain of original sin during a window of time prior to her birth. That is a trivial matter to them compared to the question of whether Mary committed actual, personal sin during her life. That is what they are obsessed about and which will get them hopping up and down issuing charges of heresy, claiming that a sinless life makes Mary out to be God (as if it would make us God when we have been entirely sanctified and are leading totally sinless lives). When Protestants say that Aquinas didn’t believe in the Immaculate Conception but fail to say that he believed in her sinless life, they are picking at something that is from their position a nit and omitting the fact that Aquinas is not on their in the thing which really concerns them.

3) Since Protestants (or you) have identified the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception with the doctrine of Mary’s personal sinlessness, it is deceptive of them to say that Aquinas did not believe in the Immaculate Conception because this will imply to their audience–and to anyone else who doesn’t have a good grasp on the doctrine–that he believed Mary sinned, which is simply not true. They will thus mislead their audience into thinking Aquinas said something he didn’t, and to do that knowingly is deception, plain and simple.

In any event, here is what Aquinas said (Summa Theologiae III:27:4):

“I answer that, God so prepares and endows those, whom He chooses for some particular office, that they are rendered capable of fulfilling it, according to 2 Cor. 3:6 : ‘(Who) hath made us fit ministers of the New Testament.’ Now the Blessed Virgin was chosen by God to be His Mother. Therefore there can be no doubt that God, by His grace, made her worthy of that office, according to the words spoken to her by the angel (Lk. 1:30 ,31 ): ‘Thou hast found grace with God: behold thou shalt conceive,’ etc. But she would not have been worthy to be the Mother of God, if she had ever sinned. First, because the honor of the parents reflects on the child, according to Prov. 17:6 : ‘The glory of children are their fathers’: and consequently, on the other hand, the Mother’s shame would have reflected on her Son. Secondly, because of the singular affinity between her and Christ, who took flesh from her: and it is written (2 Cor. 6:15 ): ‘What concord hath Christ with Belial?’ Thirdly, because of the singular manner in which the Son of God, who is the ‘Divine Wisdom’ (1 Cor. 1:24 ) dwelt in her, not only in her soul but in her womb. And it is written (Wis. 1:4 ): ‘Wisdom will not enter into a malicious soul, nor dwell in a body subject to sins.’​

“We must therefore confess simply that the Blessed Virgin committed no actual sin, neither mortal nor venial; so that what is written (Cant 4:7 ) is fulfilled: ‘Thou art all fair, O my love, and there is not a spot in thee,’ etc. “

Thus you should never tolerate someone to say that Aquinas endorsed the idea that Mary was sinful. He absolutely and unequivocally did not, and you should ask any Protestant who says this whether he has actually read what Aquinas said on the subject or whether he is repeating erroneous claims made in anti-Catholic sources. If he is doing the latter, he is repeating gossip. If he is doing the former, and really does know what Aquinas said, then he is being deceptive.

Aquinas on the Immaculate Conception

enough of this.
I know that the dogma of the immaculate conception and Mary's personal sinlessness are two completely separate issues. I have never said anything against Mary's personal sinlessness nor against Aquinas' teaching of the same. You have completely misread my comment and intentions. You need to make yourself a nice cup of tea and spend some time away from the forums.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: FenderTL5
Upvote 0

Constantine the Sinner

Well-Known Member
Aug 11, 2016
2,059
676
United States
✟38,759.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Celibate
My dear friend. There is not one single verse that says what you posted or even suggests what you posted to be Biblically true. NO NOT ONE.

What you posted is completely fabricated by the Catholic church. If that is not true then would you please post the Bible verse to confirm your comment.
I cannot show you such a verse, because such a verse does noes not exist. I fundamentally disagree with your postulate that nothing happened that it is not explicitly chronicled in the Bible, and I am unsure whence this postulate is derived--certainly not from the Bible.
 
Upvote 0

Constantine the Sinner

Well-Known Member
Aug 11, 2016
2,059
676
United States
✟38,759.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Celibate
Mary being espoused and Christ entrusting Mary to John are two separate events separated by 33 years. One does not support the other.

That is of course your choice of course but I am sticking to the Biblical account..
You are sticking to an interpretation of the Biblical account (the account of Christ's siblings) that is relatively recent: Christ's siblings were always in the past understood to be from Joseph's prior marriage. You are innovating a new way to read the Bible that has zero ancient basis. This is changing doctrine (teaching), and therefore I must reject it. The Spirit of Truth does not change His teachings over time, the Spirit of Truth doesn't waffle. Were Protestants in the past not guided by the Spirit of Truth?
 
Upvote 0

Major1

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2016
10,551
2,837
Deland, Florida
✟211,285.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
You are sticking to an interpretation of the Biblical account (the account of Christ's siblings) that is relatively recent: Christ's siblings were always in the past understood to be from Joseph's prior marriage. You are innovating a new way to read the Bible that has zero ancient basis. This is changing doctrine (teaching), and therefore I must reject it. The Spirit of Truth does not change His teachings over time, the Spirit of Truth doesn't waffle. Were Protestants in the past not guided by the Spirit of Truth?

My dear friend, there is absolutely NO evidence that Joseph was married before Mary and had children.

Please understand that the Bible itself is almost 2000 years old and in the Bible there is NO record of Joseph ever being married. So honestly, it is not a new theory but is instead a very old Bible teaching.

Now, because you have never heard it stated really has nothing to do with it at all. You have been exposed to Catholic teachings and not Protestant. All I ask is that you read both and then come to a logical conclusion.

If you want to believe that Joseph was married and had children, then feel free to believe that. HOWEVER do not accept that thinking that it is in the Bible because it is not.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Phil 1:21
Upvote 0

Constantine the Sinner

Well-Known Member
Aug 11, 2016
2,059
676
United States
✟38,759.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Celibate
My dear friend, there is absolutely NO evidence that Joseph was married before Mary and had children.

Please understand that the Bible itself is almost 2000 years old and in the Bible there is NO record of Joseph ever being married. So honestly, it is not a new theory but is instead a very old Bible teaching.

Now, because you have never heard it stated really has nothing to do with it at all. You have been exposed to Catholic teachings and not Protestant. All I ask is that you read both and then come to a logical conclusion.

If you want to believe that Joseph was married and had children, then feel free to believe that. HOWEVER do not accept that thinking that it is in the Bible because it is not.
The Bible is not, and never was remotely intended to be, a chronicle of Joseph's life.

Original Protestant teachings, which you have departed from, agree with me. You represent neo-Protestant teaching, not Protestant doctrine per se.
 
Upvote 0

Major1

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2016
10,551
2,837
Deland, Florida
✟211,285.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
The Bible is not, and never was remotely intended to be, a chronicle of Joseph's life.

Original Protestant teachings, which you have departed from, agree with me. You represent neo-Protestant teaching, not Protestant doctrine per se.

Of course it wasn't!

The Bible is a book which tells us how to have a relationship with God. That is not in questions.

The point however is that Catholic apologetics try to use Joseph and say that he has children by a previous marriage and those children are the "Brothers" we see in the Scriptures. The Catholic church fabricated that story in order to formulate the perpetual virginity of Mary.

The point is that there is NO Scriptures to support that fabrication whatsoever!!!!!!

Unfortunately I have to disagree. I am a real right wing Protestant and If it is not in the Bible it is not to be a Doctrine....IMO.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Phil 1:21
Upvote 0

Major1

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2016
10,551
2,837
Deland, Florida
✟211,285.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I cannot show you such a verse, because such a verse does noes not exist. I fundamentally disagree with your postulate that nothing happened that it is not explicitly chronicled in the Bible, and I am unsure whence this postulate is derived--certainly not from the Bible.

And that is exactly my point. The CAthoic church has fabricated doctrines which ARE NOT found in the Scriptures.
 
Upvote 0

Constantine the Sinner

Well-Known Member
Aug 11, 2016
2,059
676
United States
✟38,759.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Celibate
And that is exactly my point. The CAthoic church has fabricated doctrines which ARE NOT found in the Scriptures.
Just because a teaching about someone's life is not chronicled in the NT, does not mean it was fabricated. Especially since the NT is not intended to be a chronicle of lives.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,127
33,263
✟584,002.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Original Protestant teachings, which you have departed from, agree with me. You represent neo-Protestant teaching, not Protestant doctrine per se.
I am not sure that's fair to say. When early Protestant leaders accepted some of the Marian beliefs or this one--that Joseph was old and a widower--we are not talking about doctrine but about custom, and they were never incorporated into any confessional statements. These are educated guesses or, at best, what some people call "pious opinions." But when we turn to the Catholic/Orthodox POV, we ARE talking about official teachings.
 
Upvote 0

Constantine the Sinner

Well-Known Member
Aug 11, 2016
2,059
676
United States
✟38,759.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Celibate
I am not sure that's fair to say. When early Protestant leaders accepted some of the Marian beliefs or this one--that Joseph was old and a widower--we are not talking about doctrine but about custom, and they were never incorporated into any confessional statements. These are educated guesses or, at best, what some people call "pious opinions." But when we turn to the Catholic/Orthodox POV, we ARE talking about official teachings.
And the doctrine that Christ's siblings are Mary's children has more or less become an official teaching of Protestantism today, which it was not before, and in fact conflicted with original Protestant belief.

I think a lot of Catholics believe Joseph was also always a virgin, and Christ's cousins are called his siblings. The understanding they were from Joseph's prior marriage is mostly an Orthodox teaching.
 
Upvote 0

Constantine the Sinner

Well-Known Member
Aug 11, 2016
2,059
676
United States
✟38,759.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Celibate
I am not sure that's fair to say. When early Protestant leaders accepted some of the Marian beliefs or this one--that Joseph was old and a widower--we are not talking about doctrine but about custom, and they were never incorporated into any confessional statements. These are educated guesses or, at best, what some people call "pious opinions." But when we turn to the Catholic/Orthodox POV, we ARE talking about official teachings.
And the doctrine that Christ's are Mary's has more or less become an official teaching of Protestantism today, which it was not before, and in fact conflicted with original Protestant belief.

I think a lot of Catholics believe Joseph was also always, and Christ's cousins are called his siblings. The understanding they were from Joseph's prior marriage is mostly an Orthodox teaching.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,127
33,263
✟584,002.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
And the doctrine that Christ's sibalings Mary's children has more or less become an official teaching of Protestantism today, which it was not before, and in fact conflicted with original Protestant belief.
It's not an "official teaching of Protestantism."

I think a lot of Catholics believe Joseph was also always, and Christ's cousins are called his siblings. The understanding they were from Joseph's prior marriage is mostly an Orthodox teaching.

Hmm. Maybe so, but I've heard it from many Catholics. It's the easiest approach to explaining away Jesus having brothers and sisters, so if they did not employ this theory, they'd be left with the argument that brothers did not really mean brothers but something else instead.
 
Upvote 0

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
23,796
14,246
59
Sydney, Straya
✟1,428,294.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Plus the vast majority of Catholic devotional artwork depicts Joseph as a young man. The idea that Joseph also remained a virgin has its origin in St Jerome, however it is completely at odds with the ancient witness.
 
Upvote 0

FenderTL5

Κύριε, ἐλέησον.
Site Supporter
Jun 13, 2016
5,671
6,638
Nashville TN
✟771,985.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
It's not an "official teaching of Protestantism."
I'm not disagreeing with your comment, just noting it has been expressed rather dogmatically by some in these threads recently and a few modern commentaries have been cited as references.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: prodromos
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,127
33,263
✟584,002.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Thank you for adjusting your statement. Of course, some persons will say such things. My criticism was only about the statement that it's official teaching and, further, that that is the case with all Protestant churches. Neither of those is correct to say.
 
Upvote 0

FenderTL5

Κύριε, ἐλέησον.
Site Supporter
Jun 13, 2016
5,671
6,638
Nashville TN
✟771,985.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
Thank you for adjusting your statement. Of course, some persons will say such things. My criticism was only about the statement that it's official teaching and, further, that that is the case with all Protestant churches. Neither of those is correct to say.
Adjusting? that one remains unedited (which I will certainly confess is a a rarity for me).

Of course there are no 'official teaching of all protestants'. Even among the things all protestants seemingly have in common there is broad disagreement. For example the Five Solas; you have even pointed out the differing definitions of what 'Sola Scriptura' means (or can mean).
(edit to add {see what I mean}): the definition of the Reformation is not exactly the same as how the term is used commonly today.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.