Immaculate Conception

[kepha31]

The discussion is misdirected if citing individual people who may have accepted the idea of the Immaculate Conception as true continues on and on. There are many ideas concerning the afterlife, the saints, the end times, and more, that are held by individuals at the same time as other individuals in the same church take the opposite positions on them. That's not the issue.

Regardless of what Luther thought about this matter of the Immaculate Conception, Luther never made it an article of faith, did not include it in his catechisms, and no Lutheran church has made it into a must-believe doctrine. The issue, IOW, is that one denomination, the Roman Catholic Church, has done just that--made it into a dogma binding upon all members.

Because it's the truth.

 

[FenderTL5]

I welcome any input from our Orthodox friends to clarify these matters for us. Neither you nor I can claim to know Orthodoxy.

Orthodox wiki on Immaculate Conception.
"Most Orthodox reject the dogma of the Immaculate Conception as unnecessary..
Orthodoxy does not see ancestral sin as an inheritance of guilt or a stain, so there is no reason for the miraculous removal of either."

 

[prodromos]

That's not entirely true. They think the guilt of the Original Sin stayed with Adam and Eve but we have the consequences. You should do some homework before misrepresenting the Orthodox like you misrepresent Catholicism

It is entirely true. You misrepresent Orthodoxy.

Historically, the Orthodox have been inconsistent on this matter.

Rubbish

If there is no original sin, why do we need a savior?

We all need to be saved from death.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Orthodox wiki on Immaculate Conception.
"Most Orthodox reject the dogma of the Immaculate Conception as unnecessary..
Orthodoxy does not see ancestral sin as an inheritance of guilt or a stain, so there is no reason for the miraculous removal of either."

Thank you for confirming my previous statements.

 

[bbbbbbb]

It is entirely true. You misrepresent Orthodoxy.

Rubbish

We all need to be saved from death.

Thank you for your excellent post.

 

[kepha31]

We all need to be saved from death.

Which is the consequence of Original Sin that you don't accept.

 

[prodromos]

Which is the consequence of Original Sin that you don't accept.

I don't even know how to respond to this nonsense. I recommend you read up on Orthodox theology from Orthodox sources instead of relying on Radio Replies.

 

[prodromos]

Which is the consequence of Original Sin that you don't accept.

Oh, and every year we celebrate the death and subsequent bodily assumption of the virgin Mary, something the Catholic Church used to do before they found it didn't quite jive with their novel "immaculate conception" doctrine.

 

[Phil 1:21]

If there is no original sin, why do we need a savior?

Come on; this is Christianity 101 stuff.

 

[kepha31]

I don't even know how to respond to this nonsense. I recommend you read up on Orthodox theology from Orthodox sources instead of relying on Radio Replies.

Sorry, I wasn't aware that this orthodox site was in error. Original Sin - Questions & Answers

 

[kepha31]

Oh, and every year we celebrate the death and subsequent bodily assumption of the virgin Mary, something the Catholic Church used to do before they found it didn't quite jive with their novel "immaculate conception" doctrine.

Was Bernadette Soubirous deluded? The story is here:

St. Bernadette Soubirous - Saints & Angels - Catholic Online

Some excerpts:
"...During her sixteenth vision, which Bernadette claims to have experienced for over an hour, was on March 25. Bernadette claimed she had asked the woman her name, but her question was only met with a smile. Bernadette asked again, three more times, and finally the woman said, "I am the Immaculate Conception..."

...Church authorities and the French government rigorously interviewed the girl, and by 1862 they confirmed she spoke truth. Since Bernadette first caused the spring to produce clean water, 69 cures have been verified by the Lourdes Medical Bureau, and after what the Church claimed were "extremely rigorous scientific and medical examinations," no one was able to explain what caused the cures...

...The Lourdes Commission that initially examined Bernadette, ran an analysis on the water but were only able to determine it contained a high mineral content. Bernadette believed it was faith and prayer that was responsible for curing the sick.
St. Bernadette Soubirous - Saints & Angels - Catholic Online

Scientific Evidence for Miracles page 1: examination of the Lourdes rules for miracel acceptence.

No private revelation is required for belief, but the Church can deem certain ones worthy of belief.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Oh, and every year we celebrate the death and subsequent bodily assumption of the virgin Mary, something the Catholic Church used to do before they found it didn't quite jive with their novel "immaculate conception" doctrine.

You are quite correct, as usual. Here is the sculptural depiction of the burial of the Virgin Mary in the portal of the Catholic Cathedral of Strasbourg -

There are innumerable such depictions of her burial in Catholic iconography until, as you said, Catholic theology progressed via the dogma of the Immaculate Conception. Here is an interesting article - Virgin Mary, the - burial, body, funeral, life, history

 

[kepha31]

You are quite correct, as usual. Here is the sculptural depiction of the burial of the Virgin Mary in the portal of the Catholic Cathedral of Strasbourg -

There are innumerable such depictions of her burial in Catholic iconography until, as you said, Catholic theology progressed via the dogma of the Immaculate Conception. Here is an interesting article - Virgin Mary, the - burial, body, funeral, life, history

So what. The last few popes have said Mary physically died. It's not a problem for Catholics. Your link or sculpture doesn't disprove any Marian teachings. And no, prodromos is not correct. Post #71 seems to have your running off in a different direction.

St. Thomas Aquinas — 'To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible.'

 

[bbbbbbb]

So what. The last few popes have said Mary physically died. It's not a problem for Catholics. Your link or sculpture doesn't disprove any Marian teachings. And no, prodromos is not correct. Post #71 seems to have your running off in a different direction.

St. Thomas Aquinas — 'To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible.'

Also true. The Catholic Church, including its Popes, has blown in both directions, frequently at the same time, regarding the problem of whether Mary could have died. If you look into it here - Assumption of Mary - Wikipedia I think you may find much of interest.

 

[prodromos]

You said, regarding death:

Which is the consequence of Original Sin that you don't accept.

The Orthodox site you cite says:

Orthodoxy believes that, while everyone bears the consequences of the first sin, the foremost of which is death, only Adam and Eve are guilty of that sin.

I suggest you get some reading glasses.

 

[prodromos]

Was Bernadette Soubirous deluded?

Quite likely. Personal sanctity is no guarantee against error.

 

[prodromos]

So what. The last few popes have said Mary physically died. It's not a problem for Catholics.

It isn't a problem that your popes teach contradictory things? Particularly when it is Catholic doctrine that your popes are preserved from teaching error?

St. Thomas Aquinas — 'To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible.'

Odd that you would quote one of the strongest opponents to the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception.

 

[kepha31]

It isn't a problem that your popes teach contradictory things? Particularly when it is Catholic doctrine that your popes are preserved from teaching error?

Whether or not Mary died is not doctrinal, and Catholics are free to accept either one. Popes are entitled to their opinions, and based on what I've read from the last few popes, they say she did die.
Here's a hair for you to split _________________________

Odd that you would quote one of the strongest opponents to the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception.

“I answer that, God so prepares and endows those, whom He chooses for some particular office, that they are rendered capable of fulfilling it, according to 2 Cor. 3:6 : ‘(Who) hath made us fit ministers of the New Testament.’ Now the Blessed Virgin was chosen by God to be His Mother. Therefore there can be no doubt that God, by His grace, made her worthy of that office, according to the words spoken to her by the angel (Lk. 1:30 ,31 ): ‘Thou hast found grace with God: behold thou shalt conceive,’ etc. But she would not have been worthy to be the Mother of God, if she had ever sinned. First, because the honor of the parents reflects on the child, according to Prov. 17:6 ‘The glory of children are their fathers’: and consequently, on the other hand, the Mother’s shame would have reflected on her Son. Secondly, because of the singular affinity between her and Christ, who took flesh from her: and it is written (2 Cor. 6:15 ‘What concord hath Christ with Belial?’ Thirdly, because of the singular manner in which the Son of God, who is the ‘Divine Wisdom’ (1 Cor. 1:24) dwelt in her, not only in her soul but in her womb. And it is written Wis. 1:4 ‘Wisdom will not enter into a malicious soul, nor dwell in a body subject to sins.’
Summa Theologiae III:27:4​

Even though Aquinas did not claim that Mary was sanctified from the moment of her conception, he did claim that she was sanctified before her birth, and so never committed personal sin (for unborn children commit no personal sin.

Thus you should never tolerate someone to say that Aquinas endorsed the idea that Mary was sinful. He absolutely and unequivocally did not, and you should ask any Protestant/Orthodox who says this whether he has actually read what Aquinas said on the subject or whether he is repeating erroneous claims made in anti-Catholic sources. If he is doing the latter, he is repeating gossip. If he is doing the former, and really does know what Aquinas said, then he is being deceptive.
Aquinas on the Immaculate Conception

 

[kepha31]

Quite likely. Personal sanctity is no guarantee against error.

That's a slick dodge from post 71, and I said nothing about personal sanctity, but only an idiot would say Bernadette wasn't. I suppose the Medical Committee are all deluded as well.

St. Bernadette Soubirous - Saints & Angels - Catholic Online

Scientific Evidence for Miracles page 1: examination of the Lourdes rules for miracle acceptance.

 

[FenderTL5]

Even though Aquinas did not claim that Mary was sanctified from the moment of her conception, he did claim that she was sanctified before her birth..

Where is the 'before her birth' part? I don't see that in the Aquinas quote (yes I read the entire blog linked as well). Is it elsewhere?

Just curious here.
fwiw, without the supporting quote - I still don't see Aquinas supporting I/C. It would seem that he would be arguing for being sinless but not specifically I/C.