Immaculate Conception

[Constantine the Sinner]

No, it is not...and the website clearly explains that.

So the ministry is not officially Protestant? Or rather the website doesn't officially represent the ministry? Which is it?

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

So what would the parallel among Protestants be? Would it be Methodist, Baptist, Anglican, Christian Reformed, etc.? Certainly not. Those are different denominations and related to each other only in the loose sense of all being Protestant.

By contrast, your church is Catholic, along with the Roman Church, the Coptic, the Nestorian, Assyrian, Old Catholic, and some others. You simply cannot compare hundreds of different denominations to yours all by itself, so to be able to say that "all those" are divided but your church is not.

I truly do hope this is clear now so that we can get on to discussing something more important.

The difference is, Lutherans and Calvinists and Baptists and all other Protestants consider themselves to be One Church, they will partake of Communion with each other. The Orthodox, by contrast, do not consider themselves to be One Church with Catholics or anyone else who isn't Orthodox, and we will not take Communion with them.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

Theologically speaking, Orthodoxy is Catholic. Some churches are classified as Catholic and some are classified as Protestant. (and a few are called cults for reasons we need not go into here).

It's no more confusing than dividing all Christian denominations into ones claiming Apostolic Succession vs. ones that disavow it. Or liturgical churches vs. non-liturgical ones. Except that it's much better a way of classifying.

Catholic refers to a certain package of beliefs and Protestant means something similar, and almost every denomination of communion can be classified as one or the other--just as the US government did with all servicemen until recently and many other religious catalogers still do.

And there's no reason to be offended by it, either. I certainly do not feel misrepresented if someone says that I'm a Protestant and so is Billy Graham. We are...but we disagree on a lot. Similarly, you are a Catholic (but not a Roman Catholic) and so is the Pope. It doesn't mean that you and he believe 100% the same, but both of you have a lot in common that Billy Graham and I don't share with either of you.

No, Catholic refers to Complete, as it used in the Nicene Creed (which Lutherans use). We don't mean "Catholic" in the sense "we share beliefs with Rome,", anymore than you would mean "Christian" in the sense you share beliefs with Mormons (who also use the term). When we say "Catholic," we mean the Orthodox Catholic Church, not Rome. We consider ourselves to be the exclusive Catholic Church. "Catholic" is only applied informally by us to Rome, but not in the same sense we apply it to ourselves.

 

[All4Christ]

The difference is, Lutherans and Calvinists and Baptists and all other Protestants consider themselves to be One Church, they will partake of Communion with each other. The Orthodox, by contrast, do not consider themselves to be One Church with Catholics or anyone else who isn't Orthodox, and we will not take Communion with them.

It is very important when in a debate or discussion to represent everyone's beliefs an accurately. Not all Protestants have open communion. The LCMS, for example, practices closed communion.

Likewise, In regards to some other posts, you can't apply the same concept of the one catholic universal church in the Protestant world to mean that they all believe the same thing or that a website represents them all. It's just not the nature of the Protestant church. The viewpoint is very different, and the Orthodox understanding cannot be applied equally to the Protestant understanding.

I'm not agreeing with open communion, and I am not defending other people's beliefs. I do strongly believe we need to be accurate in our discussions, especially when we disagree.

 

[Albion]

You do collectively.

In a sense, that's true. And we would expect that you would include yourself, too, as a member of the body of Christ and the household of God.

But we had been speaking of denominations and you used the word in your own post, so it was in that sense that I was speaking there.

 

[Albion]

So the ministry is not officially Protestant? Or rather the website doesn't officially represent the ministry? Which is it?

That is correct. The website isn't officially anything and says so.

 

[Albion]

The difference is, Lutherans and Calvinists and Baptists and all other Protestants consider themselves to be One Church, they will partake of Communion with each other.

First, Calvinists is not a denomination. Second, it is not necessarily true that these that you've named DO practice open communion.

 

[Albion]

No, Catholic refers to Complete.

I was of course using the word as an identifiable theological position and not speaking of the origin of the word.

 

[FenderTL5]

It is very important when in a debate or discussion to represent everyone's beliefs an accurately. Not all Protestants have open communion. The LCMS, for example, practices closed communion.

Likewise, In regards to some other posts, you can't apply the same concept of the one catholic universal church in the Protestant world to mean that they all believe the same thing or that a website represents them all. It's just not the nature of the Protestant church. The viewpoint is very different, and the Orthodox understanding cannot be applied equally to the Protestant understanding.

I'm not agreeing with open communion, and I am not defending other people's beliefs. I do strongly believe we need to be accurate in our discussions, especially when we disagree.

Agree.
I spent 50~ years in baptist churches. You'd be hard pressed to find a baptist website that is agreeable to all baptists, much less other protestants. In the independent, fundamental church I grew up in, a change in pastor could change some doctrinal stances in the same church, with more or less the same membership (a pastoral change almost always resulted in some turnover in membership).

 

[bbbbbbb]

Agree.
I spent 50~ years in baptist churches. You'd be hard pressed to find a baptist website that is agreeable to all baptists, much less other protestants. In the independent, fundamental church I grew up in, a change in pastor could change some doctrinal stances in the same church, with more or less the same membership (a pastoral change almost always resulted in some turnover in membership).

That has been my observation as a non-Baptist, as well.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

First, Calvinists is not a denomination. Second, it is not necessarily true that these that you've named DO practice open communion.

Those who don't I would category as distinct and not hold them accountable for the theological positions of other Protestants. But Protestants who do share Communion, I consider collectively responsible for the teachings of their various churches.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

I was of course using the word as an identifiable theological position and not speaking of the origin of the word.

Orthodoxy is not a theological position that is more Papist or more Protestant, but is entirely distinct from both and precedes both by more than a thousand years. Most of our positions would not fit at all with either Catholicism or Protestantism, in fact our entire theological approach is very different. We have a Church and clergy for instance, but how we understand these two is in fact completely different from how Catholics do. Papist theology originally differed from us mainly on the point of the Filioque and the Pope, but since then has diverged enormously from us, and in fact we see Papists and Protestants as both closer to each other than either is to us.

 

[Major1]

No, Catholic refers to Complete, as it used in the Nicene Creed (which Lutherans use). We don't mean "Catholic" in the sense "we share beliefs with Rome,", anymore than you would mean "Christian" in the sense you share beliefs with Mormons (who also use the term). When we say "Catholic," we mean the Orthodox Catholic Church, not Rome. We consider ourselves to be the exclusive Catholic Church. "Catholic" is only applied informally by us to Rome, but not in the same sense we apply it to ourselves.

The word catholic literally means "universal," as in "the universal church." It originally was applied to all Christians because we are all part of the universal church in the way that we are all members of the Body of Christ. The Latin word is catholicus, and in Greek it is katholikos, from the Greek phrase meaning "on the whole, according to the whole or in general."

 

[Major1]

The difference is, Lutherans and Calvinists and Baptists and all other Protestants consider themselves to be One Church, they will partake of Communion with each other. The Orthodox, by contrast, do not consider themselves to be One Church with Catholics or anyone else who isn't Orthodox, and we will not take Communion with them.

I have to question your comment .......
" Lutherans and Calvinists and Baptists and all other Protestants consider themselves to be One Church, they will partake of Communion with each other."

It has been my experience that In large part, the Baptist denomination was born out of a desire for theological precision. The legacy of early Baptistic reformers is their evangelistic fervor. It has also been by observation that the Baptist denomination invites all believers in the Lord Jesus Christ to participate in communion. However, they will not join in the Catholic communion or any others who practice transubstantiation.

I have also seen two rather large Baptist churches who became Calvinist in their theology and they were voted out of the Southern Baptist Convention because of that change.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

It is very important when in a debate or discussion to represent everyone's beliefs an accurately. Not all Protestants have open communion. The LCMS, for example, practices closed communion.

Likewise, In regards to some other posts, you can't apply the same concept of the one catholic universal church in the Protestant world to mean that they all believe the same thing or that a website represents them all. It's just not the nature of the Protestant church. The viewpoint is very different, and the Orthodox understanding cannot be applied equally to the Protestant understanding.

I'm not agreeing with open communion, and I am not defending other people's beliefs. I do strongly believe we need to be accurate in our discussions, especially when we disagree.

If LCMS is not in Communion with the Church I'm talking about, then I am not referring to them by the term "Protestant". Likewise, when I am using "Catholic" to refer to the Church of Rome, I am not including Orthodox in that, even though we identify with the term.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

The word catholic literally means "universal," as in "the universal church." It originally was applied to all Christians because we are all part of the universal church in the way that we are all members of the Body of Christ. The Latin word is catholicus, and in Greek it is katholikos, from the Greek phrase meaning "on the whole, according to the whole or in general."

You are correct on your definition of the world, it means whole, entire, universal, complete. However, we don't believe "catholic" here means "the entirety of those who identify as Christian," but rather, "the complete Body of Christ". Because, you see, we don't believe simply identifying as Christian is sufficient to make you a part of the Body of Christ.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

I have to question your comment .......
" Lutherans and Calvinists and Baptists and all other Protestants consider themselves to be One Church, they will partake of Communion with each other."

It has been my experience that In large part, the Baptist denomination was born out of a desire for theological precision. The legacy of early Baptistic reformers is their evangelistic fervor. It has also been by observation that the Baptist denomination invites all believers in the Lord Jesus Christ to participate in communion. However, they will not join in the Catholic communion or any others who practice transubstantiation.

I have also seen two rather large Baptist churches who became Calvinist in their theology and they were voted out of the Southern Baptist Convention because of that change.

Catholics aren't Protestants so that isn't pertinent to my point.

They were voted out of the convention, but that doesn't mean they were excommunicated, that is, cut off from Communion with other baptists.

 

[Albion]

If LCMS is not in Communion with the Church I'm talking about, then I am not referring to them by the term "Protestant".

FWIW, I have no idea how that could make sense.

when I am using "Catholic" to refer to the Church of Rome, I am not including Orthodox in that, even though we identify with the term.

If it's clear that you're speaking of the Church of Rome, I think we'd all take that for granted.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

FWIW, I have no idea how that could make sense.

Very simple: 90% or more of Protestants in the world are functionally One Church. When I say "Protestant" I'm referring to that. That is the Church you both belong to do. I don't identify you with those who don't consider you a part of the One Church. Those people do not share an identity with you in this sense, and so I will only deal with them distinctly from you, not as part of your Church, because they aren't part of it.

 

[Major1]

Catholics aren't Protestants so that isn't pertinent to my point.

They were voted out of the convention, but that doesn't mean they were excommunicated, that is, cut off from Communion with other baptists.

Southern Baptists do not have an "excommunication" process as is thought of taking place in certain other faiths such as the Catholic church.

Certainly there is church discipline when a member stops attending church or is found in immorality. But those cases are almost always treated by counseling and prayer. Immorality and heresy rarely jeopardize
membership. Churches in practice deny their authority to judge the belief and behavior of individual members.

The cases I personally know of where excommunication and the cut off of communion was when a Catholic church member actually got saved and chose to leave the Catholic church. The catholic church then made sure that there was no family interaction what so ever.

Two years ago, I was at the funeral of such a young man. He was saved and the Catholic church told his parents they were not to have any fellowship with hi. The actual words said to him by his mother was.....
"You are dead to us and goin to hell".

That 40 year old man never spoke to his parents again and as I said died of cancer two years ago.