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Immaculate Conception?

PrettyboyAndy

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Jesus is fully man, and fully God.

I believe it is true that: the Holy Spirit's seed and Mary's seed produced Jesus?

For Jesus to be sinless, would Mary need to be either:
a) Saved and or Filled with the Holy Spirit
b) Sinless

I can't see, God in the flesh could be conceived if Mary was a sinner.
 

JackRT

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At a very early date the Christian church developed the theory / dogma of Original Sin based largely on the mythology of the creation as found in Genesis. Not realizing any better, they accepted the story as literal history. We all know, or should know, that the theory of Original Sin is based on the notion that we are a fallen race, unworthy of God because of the sin of our primeval parents Adam and Eve. St Augustine further developed the theory by stating that the stain of the Original Sin was passed on to the children through the seed of the father.

This concept further confirmed the notion in the early church that sex was inherently evil and to be discouraged except for procreation. What is interesting as well is that Genesis is a Jewish scripture and the Jews never developed the theory of Original Sin. Moreover, the rather earthy Jewish attitude toward sex lacks entirely the Christian distaste for it.

The notion that Original Sin was passed on through the father's seed, somewhat like a spiritual HIV virus, turns out to have been inherently flawed. We must realize, that at that point in history, it was believed that the father, and the father only, contributed what we would today call the genetic make up of the child. What they called the male seed was regarded as containing an entire nascent human being. As a consequence, they regarded any wastage of the seed as tatamount to murder. This explains why masturbation, coitus interuptus and even wet dreams were considered to be serious sins. The role of the woman was solely that of providing the warm nurturing environment for the developing child. She had no genetic contribution to make. Since she contributed nothing to the make up of the child, she could, of course, not be the agency through which Original Sin was passed on. Of course the mother herself was cursed with Original Sin but this flaw in her was not felt to have any bearing on the state of the child.

Now when we link these notions to the Nativity story we get further complications. Mary was believed to have become pregnant through the agency of God. God of course contributed the seed (genetic material) and Mary's role for the next nine months was as a nurturing womb. Jesus was born sinless because of course God was sinless. The stain of the Original Sin did not afflict him. It did not matter that Mary was afflicted with the sin.

This entire theory fell apart about 200 years ago when it was discovered by microscopic studies that the mother did indeed contribute genetically to the child. She of course supplied the egg cell to be fertilized by the male sperm.

This realization seems to have provided a good deal of the impetus for the Roman Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. If Mary through her egg contributed to the genetic make up of Jesus then she too could pass on Original Sin. The Immaculate Conception solved this problem quite neatly by stating that Mary herself must have been concieved immaculately (without sin) through the agency of the grace of Jesus somehow applied retroactively.
 
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kepha31

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Jesus is fully man, and fully God.

I believe it is true that: the Holy Spirit's seed and Mary's seed produced Jesus?

For Jesus to be sinless, would Mary need to be either:
a) Saved and or Filled with the Holy Spirit
b) Sinless

I can't see, God in the flesh could be conceived if Mary was a sinner.
Actually, it wasn't necessary that God intervene with Mary's conception to prevent original sin, He did so because it was fitting. Eve was created without sin, the New Eve was conceived without sin, so a precedent exists.
 
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CrystalDragon

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Actually, it wasn't necessary that God intervene with Mary's conception to prevent original sin, He did so because it was fitting. Eve was created without sin, the New Eve was conceived without sin, so a precedent exists.


If Mary was conceived without sin, then why couldn't everyone be?
 
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Jack Isaacks

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Jesus is fully man, and fully God.

I believe it is true that: the Holy Spirit's seed and Mary's seed produced Jesus?

For Jesus to be sinless, would Mary need to be either:
a) Saved and or Filled with the Holy Spirit
b) Sinless

I can't see, God in the flesh could be conceived if Mary was a sinner.
Andy, I respectfully ask you if you know what the Roman doctrine of the IC actually says and means?

Orthodoxy has many problems with it, at least as defined by Pius IX, which I will not list here.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
 
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JackRT

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If Mary was conceived without sin, then why couldn't everyone be?

Personally, I find the theory of original sin to be very problematic. Genesis can be interpreted in several ways including being a coming of age story that some call "original blessing".
 
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CrystalDragon

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Personally, I find the theory of original sin to be very problematic. Genesis can be interpreted in several ways including being a coming of age story that some call "original blessing".


I've never heard the original blessing possibility, but that's an optimistic way of looking at it. :)
 
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JackRT

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I've never heard the original blessing possibility, but that's an optimistic way of looking at it. :)

I do not read the Genesis myth as a fall from an original state of perfection into sin and death. The first couple were completely innocent and naïve creatures. They were certainly capable of making a mistake but, without knowing good from evil, they lacked even the ability to sin. That ability came only with them eating of the "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil". To me the story is a "coming of age story". Our mythical first couple graduated from animal status into to fully self aware human beings capable of making moral judgements. This is not an Original Sin story but rather an Original Blessing story that should be celebrated. We are not a people fallen from an original state of perfection into sin and death. What we are is a people that is still evolving. We are no longer "just animals" but something more.

Why the expulsion from Eden? In the mythology, I believe it to be symbolic that mankind was no longer a naïve creature living in moral ignorance but had become real men and women living in a world where there was real good and evil.

In the words of John Spong: "Every living thing, plant and animal is programmed to survive. What is true of all these living things is also true of human life. The only difference is that we human beings are self-conscious, while plants and animals are not. If survival is our highest goal, self-centeredness is inevitable and thus this quality becomes a constant part of the human experience. Traditionally, the church has called this "original sin" and has explained it with the myth of the fall. That was simply wrong. Survival is a quality found in life itself. There was no fall. Self-centered, survival driven, self-conscious creatures is simply who we are. There is thus no such thing as "original sin" from which we need to be rescued by a divine invader. So much of traditional Christianity assumes this false premise."
 
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Hank77

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If Mary was conceived without sin, then why couldn't everyone be?
More to the point why wouldn't God just cause Jesus to be conceived without sin? What would be the point in Mary being conceived without sin?
 
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Hank77

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If Mary was conceived without sin, then why couldn't everyone be?
More to the point why wouldn't God just cause Jesus to be conceived without sin? What would be the point in Mary being conceived without sin?
 
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kepha31

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At a very early date the Christian church developed the theory / dogma of Original Sin based largely on the mythology of the creation as found in Genesis. Not realizing any better, they accepted the story as literal history.
That isn't true. Good luck finding a reference.
We all know, or should know, that the theory of Original Sin is based on the notion that we are a fallen race, unworthy of God because of the sin of our primeval parents Adam and Eve. St Augustine further developed the theory by stating that the stain of the Original Sin was passed on to the children through the seed of the father.
"[T]his concupiscence, I say, which is cleansed only by the sacrament of regeneration, does undoubtedly, by means of natural birth, pass on the bond of sin to a man's posterity, unless they are themselves loosed from it by regeneration." Augustine, On Marriage and Concupiscence, 1:23 (A.D. 420).
"a man's posterity" means future generations, it doesn't exclude women.

This concept further confirmed the notion in the early church that sex was inherently evil and to be discouraged except for procreation.
Sex was evil to the Gnostic heretics. They were the ones Paul was talking about who "forbade marriage" in 1 Tim. 4:3. What is interesting as well is that Genesis is a Jewish scripture and the Jews never developed the theory of Original Sin. Moreover, the rather earthy Jewish attitude toward sex lacks entirely the Christian distaste for it.
You mean the Puritan distaste for it, an offshoot of Calvinism. Marriage has always been a sacrament since God established it in Genesis.
Devout Catholics Have Better Sex, Study Says
Group says Catholics have more enjoyable sex, more often.

The notion that Original Sin was passed on through the father's seed, somewhat like a spiritual HIV virus, turns out to have been inherently flawed. We must realize, that at that point in history, it was believed that the father, and the father only, contributed what we would today call the genetic make up of the child. What they called the male seed was regarded as containing an entire nascent human being.
No early church father taught that.
As a consequence, they regarded any wastage of the seed as tatamount to murder. This explains why masturbation, coitus interuptus and even wet dreams were considered to be serious sins.
I think you are confused.
Gen. 38:8-10 - Onan is killed by God for practicing contraception (in this case, withdrawal) and spilling his sperm on the ground.
Gen. 38:9 - also, the author's usage of the graphic word "seed," which is very uncharacteristic for Hebrew writing, further highlights the reason for Onan's death.
The sin is contraception, not murder.
Lev.18:22-23;20:13 - wasting seed with non-generative sexual acts warrants death. Many Protestant churches, which have all strayed from the Catholic Church, reject this fundamental truth (few Protestants and Catholics realize that contraception was condemned by all of Christianity - and other religions - until the Anglican church permitted it in certain cases at the Lambeth conference in 1930. This opened the floodgates of error).

The role of the woman was solely that of providing the warm nurturing environment for the developing child. She had no genetic contribution to make. Since she contributed nothing to the make up of the child, she could, of course, not be the agency through which Original Sin was passed on. Of course the mother herself was cursed with Original Sin but this flaw in her was not felt to have any bearing on the state of the child.
Sorry, but that's a straw man fallacy. Where did Jesus get His humanity from?

Now when we link these notions to the Nativity story we get further complications. Mary was believed to have become pregnant through the agency of God. God of course contributed the seed (genetic material) and Mary's role for the next nine months was as a nurturing womb. Jesus was born sinless because of course God was sinless. The stain of the Original Sin did not afflict him. It did not matter that Mary was afflicted with the sin.
No, it didn't matter, but God saw it was fitting.

This entire theory fell apart about 200 years ago when it was discovered by microscopic studies that the mother did indeed contribute genetically to the child. She of course supplied the egg cell to be fertilized by the male sperm.
They didn't have microscopes in the 1st century??? What stupid Catholics!

This realization seems to have provided a good deal of the impetus for the Roman Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. If Mary through her egg contributed to the genetic make up of Jesus then she too could pass on Original Sin. The Immaculate Conception solved this problem quite neatly by stating that Mary herself must have been concieved immaculately (without sin) through the agency of the grace of Jesus somehow applied retroactively.[/QUOTE]
The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception hinges on the Word of God delivered by an angel, "Hail Mary! Full of Grace!!!"
The question is WHEN this occurred.
 
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frettr00

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kepha31

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At a very early date the Christian church developed the theory / dogma of Original Sin based largely on the mythology of the creation as found in Genesis. Not realizing any better, they accepted the story as literal history.
That isn't true. Good luck finding a reference.
We all know, or should know, that the theory of Original Sin is based on the notion that we are a fallen race, unworthy of God because of the sin of our primeval parents Adam and Eve. St Augustine further developed the theory by stating that the stain of the Original Sin was passed on to the children through the seed of the father.
"[T]his concupiscence, I say, which is cleansed only by the sacrament of regeneration, does undoubtedly, by means of natural birth, pass on the bond of sin to a man's posterity, unless they are themselves loosed from it by regeneration."
Augustine, On Marriage and Concupiscence, 1:23 (A.D. 420).
"a man's posterity" means future generations, it doesn't exclude women from original sin.
This concept further confirmed the notion in the early church that sex was inherently evil and to be discouraged except for procreation.
Sex was evil to the Gnostic heretics. They were the ones Paul was talking about who "forbade marriage" in 1 Tim. 4:3. What is interesting as well is that Genesis is a Jewish scripture and the Jews never developed the theory of Original Sin. Moreover, the rather earthy Jewish attitude toward sex lacks entirely the Christian distaste for it.
You mean the Puritan distaste for it, an offshoot of Calvinism. Marriage has always been a sacrament since God established it in Genesis.
Devout Catholics Have Better Sex, Study Says
Group says Catholics have more enjoyable sex, more often.

The notion that Original Sin was passed on through the father's seed, somewhat like a spiritual HIV virus, turns out to have been inherently flawed. We must realize, that at that point in history, it was believed that the father, and the father only, contributed what we would today call the genetic make up of the child. What they called the male seed was regarded as containing an entire nascent human being.
No early church father taught that.
As a consequence, they regarded any wastage of the seed as tatamount to murder. This explains why masturbation, coitus interuptus and even wet dreams were considered to be serious sins.
I think you are confused.
Gen. 38:8-10 - Onan is killed by God for practicing contraception (in this case, withdrawal) and spilling his sperm on the ground.
Gen. 38:9 - also, the author's usage of the graphic word "seed," which is very uncharacteristic for Hebrew writing, further highlights the reason for Onan's death.
The sin is contraception, not murder.
Lev.18:22-23;20:13 - wasting seed with non-generative sexual acts warrants death. Many Protestant churches, which have all strayed from the Catholic Church, reject this fundamental truth (few Protestants and Catholics realize that contraception was condemned by all of Christianity - and other religions - until the Anglican church permitted it in certain cases at the Lambeth conference in 1930. This opened the floodgates of error).
The role of the woman was solely that of providing the warm nurturing environment for the developing child. She had no genetic contribution to make. Since she contributed nothing to the make up of the child, she could, of course, not be the agency through which Original Sin was passed on. Of course the mother herself was cursed with Original Sin but this flaw in her was not felt to have any bearing on the state of the child.
Your theory is flawed. Where did Jesus get His humanity from?
Now when we link these notions to the Nativity story we get further complications. Mary was believed to have become pregnant through the agency of God. God of course contributed the seed (genetic material) and Mary's role for the next nine months was as a nurturing womb. Jesus was born sinless because of course God was sinless. The stain of the Original Sin did not afflict him. It did not matter that Mary was afflicted with the sin.
No, it didn't matter, but God saw it was fitting.
This entire theory fell apart about 200 years ago when it was discovered by microscopic studies that the mother did indeed contribute genetically to the child. She of course supplied the egg cell to be fertilized by the male sperm.
They didn't have microscopes in the 1st century??? What stupid Catholics!
This realization seems to have provided a good deal of the impetus for the Roman Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. If Mary through her egg contributed to the genetic make up of Jesus then she too could pass on Original Sin. The Immaculate Conception solved this problem quite neatly by stating that Mary herself must have been conceived immaculately (without sin) through the agency of the grace of Jesus somehow applied retroactively.
The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception hinges on the Word of God delivered by an angel, "Hail Mary! Full of Grace!!!"
The question is WHEN she was full of grace. It's a title, not just an adjective clause.
 
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Albion

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Jesus is fully man, and fully God.

I believe it is true that: the Holy Spirit's seed and Mary's seed produced Jesus?

For Jesus to be sinless, would Mary need to be either:
a) Saved and or Filled with the Holy Spirit
b) Sinless

I can't see, God in the flesh could be conceived if Mary was a sinner.
Sure, he could. But God, being God, wouldn't have any sin either way.
 
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Bluerose31

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Jesus is fully man, and fully God.

I believe it is true that: the Holy Spirit's seed and Mary's seed produced Jesus?

For Jesus to be sinless, would Mary need to be either:
a) Saved and or Filled with the Holy Spirit
b) Sinless

I can't see, God in the flesh could be conceived if Mary was a sinner.

I think Mary was perfect and so was Jesus. I am Christian Catholic. I feel Mary may have been impregnated by Gods spirit and that Jesus was perfect.
 
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Bluerose31

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Jesus is fully man, and fully God.

I believe it is true that: the Holy Spirit's seed and Mary's seed produced Jesus?

For Jesus to be sinless, would Mary need to be either:
a) Saved and or Filled with the Holy Spirit
b) Sinless

I can't see, God in the flesh could be conceived if Mary was a sinner.

I think Mary was perfect and so was Jesus. I am Christian Catholic. I feel Mary may have been impregnated by Gods spirit and that Jesus was perfect.
 
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Bluerose31

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Jesus is fully man, and fully God.

I believe it is true that: the Holy Spirit's seed and Mary's seed produced Jesus?

For Jesus to be sinless, would Mary need to be either:
a) Saved and or Filled with the Holy Spirit
b) Sinless

I can't see, God in the flesh could be conceived if Mary was a sinner.

I think Mary was perfect and so was Jesus. I am Christian Catholic. I feel Mary may have been impregnated by Gods spirit and that Jesus was perfect.
 
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Bluerose31

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Jesus is fully man, and fully God.

I believe it is true that: the Holy Spirit's seed and Mary's seed produced Jesus?

For Jesus to be sinless, would Mary need to be either:
a) Saved and or Filled with the Holy Spirit
b) Sinless

I can't see, God in the flesh could be conceived if Mary was a sinner.

I think Mary was perfect and so was Jesus. I am Christian Catholic. I feel Mary may have been impregnated by Gods spirit and that Jesus was perfect.
Jesus is fully man, and fully God.

I believe it is true that: the Holy Spirit's seed and Mary's seed produced Jesus?

For Jesus to be sinless, would Mary need to be either:
a) Saved and or Filled with the Holy Spirit
b) Sinless

I can't see, God in the flesh could be conceived if Mary was a sinner.
I think Mary was perfect and so was Jesus. I am Christian Catholic. I feel Mary may have been impregnated by Gods spirit and that Jesus was perfect.
 
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John Hyperspace

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How can Mary be perfect/sinless in light of passages stating such as "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" "there is none that is good, no, not one" "God has concluded them all under sin that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world become guilty before Him" and a plethora of such passages? How are these interpreted to exclude Mary?
 
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prodromos

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That was God's original plan. Had He made us robots there would never have been so many problems.
Indeed, this is one of the many issues we Orthodox have with the Catholic dogma. It takes away Mary's virtue.
 
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