Immaculate Conception?

[JackRT]

Why so many repeated posts? Is this a problem with the site or just a couple of people with no sense of propriety?

 

[Hank77]

Jesus is fully man, and fully God.

I believe it is true that: the Holy Spirit's seed and Mary's seed produced Jesus?

For Jesus to be sinless, would Mary need to be either:
a) Saved and or Filled with the Holy Spirit
b) Sinless

I can't see, God in the flesh could be conceived if Mary was a sinner.

This is how I understand it......
Why wasn't Jesus born with original sin? | carm

 

[Bluerose31]

i believe Jesus is fully man and fully God.

 

[Bluerose31]

i believe Jesus is fully man and fully God.

 

[Hank77]

Why so many repeated posts? Is this a problem with the site or just a couple of people with no sense of propriety?

It's a problem with the site.
I overcame it by copying my post before posting it (just in case), posting it once even though it doesn't appear to be posting, go out of the thread and then coming back in. It does post when I do that.

 

[Hank77]

Well ...double post!

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

How can Mary be perfect/sinless in light of passages stating such as "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" "there is none that is good, no, not one" "God has concluded them all under sin that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world become guilty before Him" and a plethora of such passages? How are these interpreted to exclude Mary?

Everything in scripture talks about Christ. So you can not compare the birth of Christ to anything else or anyone else.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Jesus is fully man, and fully God.

I believe it is true that: the Holy Spirit's seed and Mary's seed produced Jesus?

For Jesus to be sinless, would Mary need to be either:
a) Saved and or Filled with the Holy Spirit
b) Sinless

I can't see, God in the flesh could be conceived if Mary was a sinner.

Actually you forgot the other choices and the only correct choices.

c) Human
d) Female
e) Virgin

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

This is how I understand it......
Why wasn't Jesus born with original sin? | carm

I don't agree with that.

Jesus was fully man and fully God.

Jesus was sinless.

But he came from his mother Mary, and from the Holy Spirit/God.

I would say Mary needed to be at least saved, or have the Holy Spirit. Or maybe even sinless, in order to give birth to our Lord.

I'm not saying we should worship or pray to Mary, But this is the birth of God himself.

 

[John Hyperspace]

Everything in scripture talks about Christ. So you can not compare the birth of Christ to anything else or anyone else.

So is it, "When the scripture says everyone is a sinner and all the world guilty before God; that doesn't mean Mary since she gave birth to Jesus" is that the actual rationale for dismissing the passages as applying to, everyone? Seems like pretty specious reasoning but, okay.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

This is how I understand it......
Why wasn't Jesus born with original sin? | carm

I don't agree with that.

Jesus was fully man and fully God.

Jesus was sinless.

But he came from his mother Mary, and from the Holy Spirit/God.

I would say Mary needed to be at least saved, or have the Holy Spirit. Or maybe even sinless, in order to give birth to our Lord.

I'm not saying we should worship or pray to Mary, But this is the birth God himself.

Actually you forgot the other choices and the only correct choices.

c) Human
d) Female
e) Virgin

I am asking this:

How can Christ be born from a sinner?

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

So is it, "When the scripture says everyone is a sinner and all the world guilty before God; that doesn't mean Mary since she gave birth to Jesus" is that the actual rationale for dismissing the passages as applying to, everyone? Seems like pretty specious reasoning but, okay.

I completely understand what your saying, I am a Calvinist Baptist, and I believe God has an elect that he effectually calls. I believe every person is a sinner, unable to come to Christ without him opening your heart.

But the birth of Christ, is VERY different. everything in the OT, the prophets, the law, the temple, the sacrifices, were ALL about Him. God was so very specific about every little detail.

How much more specific would it be for the Birth of Christ? He was born in a manager/Barn, the Bethlehem star lead wise magi to him, they presented him with gifts, an angel choir appeared to shepards, there was a census in that time, which forced Joseph to leave and go to Bethlehem, so the scriptures would be fulfilled.

I don't see how a sinner could give birth to our Lord, it doesn't make sense to me. In light of all the ceremonial laws, etc

 

[Neogaia777]

Jesus is fully man, and fully God.

I believe it is true that: the Holy Spirit's seed and Mary's seed produced Jesus?

For Jesus to be sinless, would Mary need to be either:
a) Saved and or Filled with the Holy Spirit
b) Sinless

I can't see, God in the flesh could be conceived if Mary was a sinner.

Luke 1:6 says Zechariah and Elizabeth (John's parents) walked upright and blamelessly before God and were righteous and obeyed the commands of God. So, they may have not actually been sinners, as some or most were. And, it is probably the same with Mary and Joseph (I would assume anyway) as well...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Jesus is fully man, and fully God.

I believe it is true that: the Holy Spirit's seed and Mary's seed produced Jesus?

For Jesus to be sinless, would Mary need to be either:
a) Saved and or Filled with the Holy Spirit
b) Sinless

I can't see, God in the flesh could be conceived if Mary was a sinner.

Luke 1:6 says Zechariah and Elizabeth (John's parents) walked upright and blamelessly before God and were righteous and obeyed the commands of God. So, they may have not actually been sinners, as some or most were. And, it is probably the same with Mary and Joseph (I would assume anyway) as well...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

.

 

[Neogaia777]

Luke 1:6 says Zechariah and Elizabeth (John's parents) walked upright and blamelessly before God and were righteous and obeyed the commands of God. So, they may have not actually been sinners, as some or most were. And, it is probably the same with Mary and Joseph (I would assume anyway) as well...

God Bless!

 

[John Hyperspace]

I completely understand what your saying, I am a Calvinist Baptist, and I believe God has an elect that he effectually calls. I believe every person is a sinner, unable to come to Christ without him opening your heart.

But the birth of Christ, is VERY different. everything in the OT, the prophets, the law, the temple, the sacrifices, were ALL about Him. God was so very specific about every little detail.

How much more specific would it be for the Birth of Christ? He was born in a manager/Barn, the Bethlehem star lead wise magi to him, they presented him with gifts, an angel choir appeared to shepards, there was a census in that time, which forced Joseph to leave and go to Bethlehem, so the scriptures would be fulfilled.

I don't see how a sinner could give birth to our Lord, it doesn't make sense to me. In light of all the ceremonial laws, etc

I'm not sure how you think the ceremonial laws intdicate a perfect Mary. Obviously I don't know anything about Holy Spirit makes literal virgin births; doesn't seem to be in scripture. But scripture is seemingly, stating that, everyone is guilty, and no one is perfect except God. I also read verses that seem to clearly state that the law could not make anything perfect, and was profitless for any form of causing a state of being sinless. It is said of Mary "full of grace" and grace does indeed seem to make it possible for one to be "perfect" and "sinless" by the non-imputation of sin by grace. So maybe this is something of it? But it seems to me that Mary would require the atonement of Christ in some way, in order to be called "perfect" so maybe a kind of, retroactive application of the atonement of Christ? I don't know it's a weird situation for sure; and I admit to knowing little to nothing about literal occurrences of such an unprecedented possibility of category.

 

[Neogaia777]

Sorry about the duplicate posts (computer issues)...

 

[Neogaia777]

Sorry about the duplicate posts, I'm having trouble with my computer or the site...

 

[Neogaia777]

Sorry about the duplicate posts, I'm having trouble with my computer or the site...

 

[kepha31]

How can Mary be perfect/sinless in light of passages stating such as "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God"

That is a rather juvenile approach the the word "all" as it is used in the Bible, because "all" does not always mean "every single one".
Rom. 3:23 - Some use this verse "all have sinned" in an attempt to prove that Mary was also with sin. But "all have sinned " only means that all are subject to original sin. Mary was spared from original sin by God, not herself. The popular analogy is God let us fall in the mud puddle, and cleaned us up afterward through baptism. In Mary's case, God did not let her enter the mud puddle.

Rom. 3:23 - "all have sinned" also refers only to those able to commit sin. This is not everyone. For example, infants, the retarded, and the senile cannot sin.

Rom. 3:23 - finally, "all have sinned," but Jesus must be an exception to this rule. This means that Mary can be an exception as well. Note that the Greek word for all is "pantes."

1 Cor. 15:22 - in Adam all ("pantes") have died, and in Christ all ("pantes") shall live. This proves that "all" does not mean "every single one." This is because not all have died (such as Enoch and Elijah who were taken up to heaven), and not all will go to heaven (because Jesus said so).

Rom. 5:12 - Paul says that death spread to all ("pantes") men. Again, this proves that "all" does not mean "every single one" because death did not spread to all men (as we have seen with Enoch and Elijah).

Rom. 5:19 - here Paul says "many (not all) were made sinners." Paul uses "polloi," not "pantes." Is Paul contradicting what he said in Rom. 3:23? Of course not. Paul means that all are subject to original sin, but not all reject God.

"there is none that is good, no, not one" "God has concluded them all under sin that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world become guilty before Him" and a plethora of such passages? How are these interpreted to exclude Mary?

Rom. 3:10-11 - some also use this verse to prove that all human beings are sinful and thus Mary must be sinful. But see Psalm 14 which is the basis of the verse.

Psalm 14 - this psalm does not teach that all humans are sinful. It only teaches that, among the wicked, all are sinful. The righteous continue to seek God.

Psalm 53:1-3 - "there is none that does good" expressly refers to those who have fallen away. Those who remain faithful do good, and Jesus calls such faithful people "good."

Rom. 9:11 - God distinguished between Jacob and Esau in the womb, before they sinned. Mary was also distinguished from the rest of humanity in the womb by being spared by God from original sin.

Luke 1:47 - Mary calls God her Savior. Some use this to denigrate Mary. Why? Of course God is Mary's Savior! She was freed from original sin in the womb (unlike us who are freed from sin outside of the womb), but needed a Savior as much as the rest of humanity.

Luke 1:48 - Mary calls herself lowly. But any creature is lowly compared to God. For example, in Matt. 11:29, even Jesus says He is lowly in heart. Lowliness is a sign of humility, which is the greatest virtue of holiness, because it allows us to empty ourselves and receive the grace of God to change our sinful lives.
Mary was 100% full of grace, not 99.9%.

 

[John Hyperspace]

That is a rather juvenile approach the the word "all"

Okay, so we establish that you think understanding a word as it means, is juvenile. Seems like really specious reasoning to me.

Rom. 3:23 - "all have sinned" also refers only to those able to commit sin. This is not everyone. For example, infants, the retarded, and the senile cannot sin.

Okay, so, Mary is not in the category of the last three, but the first one, so?

Rom. 3:23 - finally, "all have sinned," but Jesus must be an exception to this rule.

Well, the verse says "fallen short of the glory of God" so Jesus is in the verse. I take it you would agree that Jesus is the express image of God, the Word made flesh; so, He is the "glory of God" that "all" are being contrasted with as having "fallen short". So Mary is still in there.

This means that Mary can be an exception as well.

Only if Mary is the express image of God, the glory of God. But if you believe that then we've got a much bigger proposition than "sinless"

1 Cor. 15:22 - in Adam all ("pantes") have died, and in Christ all ("pantes") shall live. This proves that "all" does not mean "every single one." This is because not all have died (such as Enoch and Elijah who were taken up to heaven), and not all will go to heaven (because Jesus said so).

Okay now you're putting a lot of doctrinal assumptions into your passages. I'm not sure I would agree with what you're interpreting and claiming in that statement.

Rom. 5:19 - here Paul says "many (not all) were made sinners." Paul uses "polloi," not "pantes." Is Paul contradicting what he said in Rom. 3:23? Of course not. Paul means that all are subject to original sin, but not all reject God.

I would propose that "all" does mean "many" but "many" doesn't necessarily mean "all"; so, no contradiction and no exceptions.

Rom. 3:10-11 - some also use this verse to prove that all human beings are sinful and thus Mary must be sinful. But see Psalm 14 which is the basis of the verse.

Psalm 53:1-3 - "there is none that does good" expressly refers to those who have fallen away. Those who remain faithful do good, and Jesus calls such faithful people "good."

That doesn't seem at all what is being said: Paul cites it:

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Rom. 9:11 - God distinguished between Jacob and Esau in the womb, before they sinned. Mary was also distinguished from the rest of humanity in the womb by being spared by God from original sin.

Okay that's begging the question.

I think the biggest problem is such as:

Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
Ro 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

So the question would be, by what means would Mary be "perfect" if not by the law (through which perfection is impossible):

Heb 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

so it seems it could only by by the grace of God to not impute any sin to her. But, in this case, Mary's perfection is of the same as any believer who is made "righteous" and "perfect" by virtue of belief:

Ro 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

And we do see Mary fully believing the message. So if Mary was "sinless" it seems to me she was like everyone under grace: a sinner made perfect by faith, allowing no imputation of sin:

Ro 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Other than that, I don't see any possible justification of sinless Mary (except through doctrines of tradition, naturally - but I don't know that the OP was looking for tradition? If so, easily enough proven by tradition)

 

[faroukfarouk]

Jesus is fully man, and fully God.

I believe it is true that: the Holy Spirit's seed and Mary's seed produced Jesus?

For Jesus to be sinless, would Mary need to be either:
a) Saved and or Filled with the Holy Spirit
b) Sinless

I can't see, God in the flesh could be conceived if Mary was a sinner.

'By one man sin entered into the world' (Romans 5.12). Sin does not enter through the mother. An often used phrase regarding the birth of the Lord Jesus through Mary is 'of her substance, sin apart'.

'My spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour' (Luke 1.47). Mary too needed a Saviour.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Jesus is fully man, and fully God.

I believe it is true that: the Holy Spirit's seed and Mary's seed produced Jesus?

For Jesus to be sinless, would Mary need to be either:
a) Saved and or Filled with the Holy Spirit
b) Sinless

I can't see, God in the flesh could be conceived if Mary was a sinner.

'By one man sin entered into the world' (Romans 5.12). Sin does not enter through the mother. An often used phrase regarding the birth of the Lord Jesus through Mary is 'of her substance, sin apart'.

'My spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour' (Luke 1.47). Mary too needed a Saviour.

 

[FireDragon76]

Jesus is fully man, and fully God.

I believe it is true that: the Holy Spirit's seed and Mary's seed produced Jesus?

For Jesus to be sinless, would Mary need to be either:
a) Saved and or Filled with the Holy Spirit
b) Sinless

At different points in his life, Luther seems to have believed either one of those options, that she was either conceived without sin, or she became holy at the Annunciation, so that Jesus had a purified human nature free from the corruption of original sin. At the time, it was not a settled matter of Catholic dogma, so Luther's views are not really that unusual for a Catholic.

Either way, you have a quite different view from many modern Protestants.