Immaculate Conception

[Albion]

What I mean to say is that you have a biased, revisionist education in history.

Now, that's what they call 'thinking on your feet!'

 

[Thursday]

Now, that's what they call 'thinking on your feet!'

In this formative period the Epistle to the Hebrews did not obtain a firm footing in the Canon of the UniversalChurch. AtRome it was not yet recognized as canonical, as shown by theMuratorian catalogue of Roman origin; Irenæus probably cites it, but makes no reference to a Pauline origin. Yet it wasknown at Rome as early as St. Clement, as the latter's epistleattests. The AlexandrianChurch admitted it as the work of St. Paul, and canonical. The Montanists favoured it, and the aptness with which vi, 4-8, lent itself to the Montanist andNovatianist rigour was doubtless one reason why it was suspect in the West. Also during this period the excess over the minimal Canon composed of the Gospels and thirteenepistles varied. The seven "Catholic" Epistles (James, Jude, I and II Peter, and the three of John) had not yet been brought into a special group, and, with the possible exception of the three of St. John, remained isolated units, depending for theircanonical strength on variable circumstances. But towards the end of the second century the canonical minimum was enlarged and, besides the Gospels and Pauline Epistles, unalterably embraced Acts, I Peter, I John (to which II and III John were probably attached), and Apocalypse. Thus Hebrews, James,Jude, and II Peter remained hovering outside the precincts ofuniversalcanonicity, and the controversy about them and the subsequently disputed Apocalypseform the larger part of the remaining history of the Canon of the New Testament. However, at the beginning of the third century the New Testament was formed in the sense that the content of its main divisions, what may be called its essence, was sharplydefined and universally received, while all the secondary books were recognized in some Churches. A singular exception to the universality of the above-described substance of the New Testament was the Canon of the primitive EastSyrianChurch, which did not co

 

[Root of Jesse]

I don't doubt there are some....sort of like catholics that don't agree with everything the RCC says. I believe there are a fair number of nuns who strongly disagree with the RCC approach to women being active in the church.
But please, give me a few major "contradictory things" that protestants believe....I hear this statement frequently but never followed up by anything of merit.

Give me a few nuns of any consequence who strongly disagree with the RCC approach to women being active in the Church. You might want do define "being active in the church", too.
Some Protestants believe in infant baptism, some don't. Some believe in Predestination, some don't, or believe in some variant thereof. Some believe that works are not necessary. Some believe that once saved, always saved. Shall I continue?

 

[Root of Jesse]

I disagree. All Christian doctrinal matters must be in the Bible — otherwise, they have no solid basis.

Says who? Show us the doctrine of the Trinity in the Bible. Not the definition, the doctrine. Show us the doctrine of the TOC of the Bible.

Never explicitly in one single verse, but you can put the pieces of the puzzle together and see that it is biblically clear. Matthew 28:19 suggests some sort of relation amongst the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit; Romans 1:7 says that the Father is God; 1 John 5:20 says that the Son (Jesus) is God; Acts of the Apostles 5:3-4 says that the Holy Spirit is God; and yet 1 Corinthians 8:4 tells us that there is only one God. Put these five passages together, and — there you go! — you have the Trinity in the Bible.

By this same principal, we can show many of the Marian dogmas.

I do not. I see us instructed to pray to the Father (Matthew 6:9). However, the Bible does not forbid praying to Jesus, and Stephen prayed to Jesus (Acts of the Apostles 7:59).

So, by the argument that it doesn't contradict Scripture, it's ok to do so? That's how we approve some of our doctrines, too. There is nothing in Catholic doctrine which contradicts Scripture.

 

[BobRyan]

Says who? Show us the doctrine of the Trinity in the Bible. .

Matthew 28 comes to mind.

 

[BobRyan]

You don't know the history of the early Church. History from a protestant perspective is less than half the story. You just stated several inaccurate things about the canon of the New Testament.

Learn something here:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03274a.htm

The formation of the New Testament canon (A.D. 100-220)
The idea of a complete and clear-cut canon of the New Testament existing from the beginning, that is from Apostolictimes, has no foundation in history. The Canon of the New Testament, like that of the Old, is the result of a development, of a process at once stimulated by disputes with doubters, both within and without the Church, and retarded by certainobscurities and natural hesitations, and which did not reach its final term until the dogmatic definition of the Tridentine Council.

The "elephant in the living room" being ignored in that quote - is that there was not one single person in the NT recorded as "waiting to read the NT letters of scripture until some generation of their unborn children came along to tell them what to read" --

And I think we all know that.

 

[BobRyan]

Scripture doesn't even tell you which books belong in scripture!!

Is that the "answer" to every doctrine not in the Bible???

 

[BobRyan]

The Early Church Fathers on
The Immaculate Conception


The Early Church Fathers referred to Mary as the second Eve. Where the first Eve was disobedient by sinning the second Eve (Mary) was obedient by not sinning. This is the natural conclusion to Genesis 3:15 where God says that He would put enmity between Satan and the woman (Mary). If Mary were to sin there would be no enmity or complete separation between her and Satan.

Justin Martyr

[Jesus] became man by the Virgin so that the course that was taken by disobedience in the beginning through the agency of the serpent might be also the very course by which it would be put down. Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent and bore disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her, for which reason the Holy One being born of her is the Son of God. And she replied, "Be it done unto me according to your word" (Luke 1:38) (Dialogue with Trypho 100 [A.D. 155]).

Irenaeus

Consequently, then, Mary the Virgin is found to be obedient, saying, "Behold, 0 Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me according to your word." Eve . . . who was then still a virgin although she had Adam for a husband — for in paradise they were both naked but were not ashamed; for, having been created only a short time, they had no understanding of the procreation of children . . . having become disobedient [sin], was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race; so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient [no sin], was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. . . . Thus, the knot of Eve's disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith (Against Heresies 3:22:24 [A.D. 189]).

Those examples do nothing at all for the doctrine of the "Immaculate conception of Mary by her mother".

They do not refer at all to Mary's mother OR to Mary's birth OR to any other choice Mary made apart from agreeing to that one proposal made to her via the Angel. The ONE act is compared to Eve's ONE act.

But Eve did commit sins AFTERward and so also did Mary - before AND after.

 

[BobRyan]

The angel called her "Full of Grace", and the Greek word means one who has always been in that state.

There's much more in the article.

How much sin do you think the Mother of God would be permitted?

Stephen was "full of grace" as well -- was he also born "sinless"??

Acts 6:8 "And Stephen FULL OF GRACE was performing GREAT wonders"

It does not pay to "make stuff up" -- coming up with a made-up rule that Mary "full of grace" means her mother gave birth to a sinless human - is a poorly thought through made-up rule.

 

[Thursday]

The "elephant in the living room" being ignored in that quote - is that there was not one single person in the NT recorded as "waiting to read the NT letters of scripture until some generation of their unborn children came along to tell them what to read" --

And I think we all know that.

There were some writings that were considered scripture by some Christians and not by others. Who decided who was right?

 

[Thursday]

Stephen was "full of grace" as well -- was he also born "sinless"??

Acts 6:8 "And Stephen FULL OF GRACE was performing GREAT wonders"

It does not pay to "make stuff up" -- coming up with a made-up rule that Mary "full of grace" means her mother gave birth to a sinless human - is a poorly thought through made-up rule.

It's a different word:


The Meaning of Kecharitomene: Full of Grace (Luke 1:28)

by pfairban at the Catholic-Convert.com discussion board

For a FULL ARTICLE on the Theology and History of the Immaculate Conception
This is kind of a return to an old thread. The main point here is that, just as the man Christ Jesus is excepted from original sin (including original sin as described in various places in Romans, with such statements by St. Paul as "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" and "death passed to all men because all have sinned") and just as that fact can be demonstrated from specific Scriptural verses when those verses are correctly understood, Mary is excepted from original sin and this fact can be demonstrated from specific verses. One well-known verse that shows this is Luke 1:28, and particularly the angel Gabriel's salutation to Mary: "Chaire, Kecharitomene" (translated in the Douay-Rheims and other Catholic versions as "Hail, Full of Grace" or "gratia plena" in the Latin Vulgate).

To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David: and the virgin’s name was Mary. And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. Who having heard, was troubled at his saying and thought with herself what manner of salutation this should be. And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God. (Luke 1:27-30 Douay-Rheims); [Latin Vulgate: ad virginem desponsatam viro cui nomen erat Ioseph de domo David et nomen virginis Maria et ingressus angelus ad eam dixit havegratia plena Dominus tecum benedicta tu in mulieribus quae cum vidisset turbata est in sermone eius et cogitabat qualis esset ista salutatio et ait angelus ei ne timeas Maria invenisti enim gratiam apud Deum....]

Tangent time: In the old thread, one of our wizened protestant fellow-travelers pointed out that the word Gabriel uses when saluting Mary, "Kecharitomene" is formed from the same root (charitoo) as a word used in one of the great early Christian hymns (I wish that the Catholic hymn writers would do a modern version, they actually are pretty good at doing Scripturally-based hymns). The hymn appears in the first chapter of Ephesians (ironically, the letter to the Ephesians was probably written by Luke, as well, but this hymn probably was not, it probably pre-existed the letter). There, the relevant stanza is

"for the praise of the glory of his grace that he granted us in the beloved" (Ephesians 1:6).

The variant of charitoo here is echaritosen. While Kecharitomene is, according to everything I've read, a perfect passive participle, echaritosen is an indicative active aorist. Kecharitomene means"having been" or "have already been" graced, according to this commentary on the Book of Zechariah -- talking about perfect passive participles in a different context and a different verse [brackets indicate where I am inserting "graced" for the word in the relevant text]:

"That which will accompany, and be a result of, Jewish recognition, is a direct quotation from the Septuagint in Ps. 118:26, 'Blessed be he that comes in the name of the LORD.' This verse also is better understood with a Greek analysis. The word Blessed, 'eulogamenos' is a perfect passive participle. It literally means 'having been blessed or praised.' The 'perfect' action of the participle is considered to have been completed before the time of the speaker. How long before is not a consideration but the Greek verbal idea is that the action has already been completed. Time is still secondary but perfected action must imply the past in relationship to the speaker. The person using the word is confessing that the one referred to has already been blessed [or graced]." (Zechariah and Jewish Renewal: From Gloom to Glory by Fred P. Miller, chapter 31on Zechariah 20)

Other examples of the perfect tense and what it means:

"There are seven tenses of the Greek verb. They are: the Aorist, Present, Imperfect, Future, Pluperfect, and Future Perfect. Let us exemplify the Perfect and Present tenses. In the words of the Greek grammarian J. Gresham Machen, 'The Greek perfect tense denotes the present state resultant upon a past action' (New Testament Greek for Beginners, p. 187). The perfect is used in Matthew 4:4,7,10 ('it is written'). Literally translated, 'It has been written in the past and is still in force.' Hence, Jesus expresses the continuing authority of God’s written law by using the perfect tense." ("How About the Greek Language?" from BibleQuestions.org)

"...Ephesians 2:8, 'For by grace are you saved through faith...' The word 'saved' is translated from the Greek word sesosmenoi, which is a perfect passive participle. It means that this salvation took place at some point in the past and is continuing on in the present...." ("The Lord is not Slack Concerning His Promise" from CephasMinistry.com)

In other words, the perfect tense in Greek is a past tense with a special meaning: it is used to refer to a past action which has effects felt in the present. So, here's what some modern, English-speaking scholars tell us "Kecharitomene" denotes, based purely on the definition of the word and its grammatical usage:

" 'Highly favoured' (kecharitomene). Perfect passive participle of charitoo and means endowed with grace (charis), enriched with grace as in Ephesians 1:6 . . . The Vulgategratiae plena [full of grace] "is right, if it means 'full of grace which thou hast received'; wrong, if it means 'full of grace which thou hast to bestow' "(A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament, p. 14)

"It is permissible, on Greek grammatical and linguistic grounds, to paraphrasekecharitomene as completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace." (Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament).

However, Luke 1:28 uses a special conjugated form of "charitoo." It uses "kecharitomene," while Ephesians 1:6 uses "echaritosen," which is a different form of the verb "charitoo." Echaritosenmeans "he graced" (or bestowed grace). Echaritosen signifies a momentary action, an action brought to pass (Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament, p. 166). Whereas,Kecharitomene, the perfect passive participle, shows a completeness with a permanent result.Kecharitomene denotes continuance of a completed action (H. W. Smyth, Greek Grammar[Harvard Univ Press, 1968], p. 108-109, sec 1852:b; also Blass and DeBrunner, p. 175).

And our friend's citation of what the term denotes:

"...to bestow grace, to show favor to someone...the divine favor for a special vocation...." (Fritz Rienecker/Cleon Rogers in their Linguistic Key to the Greek New Testament)

Ironically, that final definition is essentially coextensive with the Catholic understanding of the whyof Mary's sinlessness --

Supreme Reason for the Privilege: The Divine Maternity

"And indeed it was wholly fitting that so wonderful a mother should be ever resplendent with the glory of most sublime holiness and so completely free from all taint of original sin that she would triumph utterly over the ancient serpent. To her did the Father will to give his only-begotten Son -- the Son whom, equal to the Father and begotten by him, the Father loves from his heart -- and to give this Son in such a way that he would be the one and the same common Son of God the Father and of the Blessed Virgin Mary. It was she whom the Son himself chose to make his Mother and it was from her that the Holy Spirit willed and brought it about that he should be conceived and born from whom he himself proceeds."
(Pope Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus)

However, I still haven't really gotten to my argument: whatever the denotation of "chaire, Kecharitomene," its connotation, what it actually meant to ancient Greek-speakers, is why it is communicating precisely that Mary was immaculately conceived.

The Greek Fathers

Here are a number of ancient experts and what they say it means; each of them is a Greek-speaker from a culture basically identical to that of St. Luke; there are a couple repeats from the previous thread, but from them I give new material, too; the passages are expositions by the authors of the meaning of Luke 1:28, generally centered on chaire, Kecharitomene:

Gregory Thaumaturgus (205-270 AD):

O purest one
O purest virgin
where the Holy Spirit is, there are all things readily ordered.
Where divine grace is present
the soil that, all untilled, bears bounteous fruit
in the life of the flesh, was in possession of the incorruptible citizenship,
and walked as such in all manner of virtues, and lived a life more excellent than man's common standard
thou hast put on the vesture of purity
has selected thee as the holy one and the wholly fair;
and through thy holy, and chaste, and pure, and undefiled womb
since of all the race of man thou art by birth the holy one,
and the more honourable, and the purer, and the more pious than any other:
and thou hast a mind whiter than the snow, and a body made purer than any gold

Akathist hymn (5th or 6th century AD):

Hail, O you, through whom Joy will shine forth!
Hail, O you, through whom the curse will disappear!
Hail, O Restoration of the Fallen Adam!
Hail, O Redemption of the Tears of Eve!
Hail, O Peak above the reach of human thought!
Hail, O Depth even beyond the sight of angels!
Hail, O you who have become a Kingly Throne!
Hail, O you who carry Him Who Carries All!
Hail, O Star who manifest the Sun!
Hail, O Womb of the Divine Incarnation!
Hail, O you through whom creation is renewed!
Hail, O you through whom the Creator becomes a Babe!
Hail, O Bride and Maiden ever-pure!

Theodotus of Ancyra (early 5th century AD):

Hail, our desirable gladness;
Hail, O rejoicing of the churches;
Hail, O name that breathes out sweetness;
Hail, face that radiates divinity and grace;
Hail, most venerable memory;
Hail, O spiritual and saving fleece;
Hail, O Mother of unsetting splendor, filled with light;
Hail, unstained Mother of holiness;
Hail, most limpid font of the lifegiving wave;
Hail, new Mother, workshop of the birth.
Hail, ineffable mother of a mystery beyond understanding;
Hail, new book of a new Scripture, of which, as Isaiah tells, angels and men are faithful witnesses;
Hail, alabaster jar of sanctifying ointment;
Hail, best trader of the coin of virginity;
Hail, creature embracing your Creator;
Hail, little container containing the Uncontainable.
(Homily 4:3; PG 77:1391B-C; Gambero, page 267-8)

"In the place of Eve, an instrument of death, is chosen a Virgin, most pleasing to God and full of His grace, as an instrument of life. A Virgin included in woman's sex, but without a share in woman's fault. A Virgin innocent; immaculate; free from all guilt; spotless; undefiled; holy in spirit and body; a lily among thorns." (Theodotus, Hom 6 in S. Deiparam, No 11; PG 77:1427A) or another translation: "Innocent virgin, spotless, without defect, untouched, unstained, holy in body and in soul, like a lily flower sprung among thorns, unschooled in the wickedness of Eve, unclouded by womanly vanity...Even before the Nativity, she was consecrated to the Creator...Holy apprentice, guest in the Temple, disciple of the law, anointed by the Holy Spirit, clothed with divine grace as with a cloak, divinely wise in your mind; united to God in your heart...Praiseworthy in your speech, even more praiseworthy in your action...God in the eyes of men, better in the sight of God." (Theodotus, Hom 6:11; Gambero, page 268)

"What did the divine messenger do then? Perceiving the Virgin's interior dispositions and perspicacity in her outward appearance and admiring her just prudence, he began to weave her a kind of floral crown with two peaks: one of joy and one of blessing; then he addressed her in a thrilling speech of praise, lifting up his hand and crying out: 'Hail, O full of grace, the Lord is with you, you are blessed' (Lk 1:28), O most beautiful and most noble among women. The Lord is with you, O all-holy one, glorious and good. The Lord is with you, O worthy of praise, O incomparable, O more than glorious, all splendor, worthy of God, worthy of all blessedness....Through you, Eve's odious condition is ended; through you, abjection has been destroyed; through you, error is dissolved; through you, sorrow is abolished; through you, condemnation has been erased. Through you, Eve has been redeemed. He who is born of the holy [Virgin] is holy, holy and Lord of all the saints, holy and Giver of holiness.Wondrous is he who generated the Woman of wonder; Ineffable is he who precedes the Woman beyond words; Son of the Most High is he who springs from this highest creature, he who appears, not by man's willing it, but by the power of the Holy Spirit; he who is born is not a mere man, but God, the incarnate Word." (Theodotus, On the Mother of God and on the Nativity; Patrologia orientalis 19:330-1; Gambero, page 271)

According to Fr. Luigi Gambero, author of Mary and the Fathers of the Church, "This kind of apostrophe addressed to the Virgin occurs frequently in Greek homilies of the fifth century onward; it constitutes a literary form called chairetismoi, from the Greek word chaire, which translates as'hail' or 'rejoice' (cf. Luke 1:28)."

Romanos the Melodist (d. c. 560 AD):

Hail, untouched Virgin!
Hail, chosen spouse of God!
Hail holy one!
Hail, delightful and beautiful!
Hail, joyful sight!
Hail, unseeded earth!
Hail, uncontaminate!
Hail, Mother who knows not man!
Hail, Virgin Bride!

John the Theologian (c. 400 AD):

"[T]he Lord said to his Mother, �Let your heart rejoice and be glad, for every favor and every gift has been given to you from my Father in heaven and from me and from the Holy Spirit. Every soul that calls upon your name shall not be ashamed, but shall find mercy and comfort and support and confidence, both in the world that now is and in that which is to come, in the presence of my Father in the heavens’" (The Falling Asleep of Mary).

This previous one appears also to be a commentary on Luke 1:28, but that's debatable. Another one of my favorite expositions on the meaning of Kecharitomene occurs at this link, the rule for an 11th or early 12th century Greek monastery; it's too long to completely recite (see Typikon of Empress Irene Doukaina Komnene for the Convent of the Mother of God Kecharitomene in Constantinople, trans. Robert Jordan).

So, there you go, what pre-industrial Greek-speakers say "Kecharitomene" means in the context of Luke 1:28.

by pfairban at Catholic-Convert.com discussion board

http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/a116.htm

 

[Thursday]

Is that the "answer" to every doctrine not in the Bible???

The answer is that Jesus started a Church, he didn't write a book. He told those of us who were not leaders to listen to those he sent.

These leaders(the Church) then wrote down the teachings of Jesus.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Matthew 28 comes to mind.

That's not the doctrine. That's the definition. SMH

 

[The Portuguese Baptist]

That is your opinion. Your opinion is not shared by the early Christians.

And… So what? If they thought they could add revelation to Scripture, whose problem is that? Mine or theirs?

 

[Thursday]

And… So what? If they thought they could add revelation to Scripture, whose problem is that? Mine or theirs?

Jesus didn't write a book, he started a Church.

As has been mentioned, there are many doctrines of the Christian faith that are no explicit in scripture, such as the Trinity and the contents of the New Testament.

 

[The Portuguese Baptist]

Says who? Show us the doctrine of the Trinity in the Bible. Not the definition, the doctrine.

I have already shown you the doctrine of the Trinity in the Bible. What is the difference between the definition and the doctrine?

Show us the doctrine of the TOC of the Bible.

What is the TOC?

By this same principal, we can show many of the Marian dogmas.

I'm listening…

So, by the argument that it doesn't contradict Scripture, it's ok to do so?

Not exactly. If it contradicts Scripture, it is right out. If it does not, we should look into it further before doing it. Taking the example of praying to Jesus, Scripture does not specifically forbid it. However, since we are generally exhorted in the Bible to pray to the Father, it is my belief that it is better to pray to the Father, and it is not recommended to pray to Jesus. Nevertheless, since the Bible also nowhere condemns praying to Jesus, we cannot say that it is wrong.

That's how we approve some of our doctrines, too. There is nothing in Catholic doctrine which contradicts Scripture.

I disagree. Many Catholic doctrines contradict Scripture. Salvation from works contradicts Ephesians 2:8-9. Mary's perpetual virginity contradicts those passages that talk about Jesus' brothers (I don't have the reference right now, but will bring it if needed). Mary's immaculate conception contradicts Romans 3:10. I can get more, if necessary.

 

[Albion]

Jesus didn't write a book, he started a Church.

As has been mentioned, there are many doctrines of the Christian faith that are no explicit in scripture

You mentioned it, but that doesn't make it so.

such as the Trinity

The Trinity is about as explicit in Scripture as any Christian doctrine is. In any case, it's believed only because it is taught by Scripture, not for any other reason. Even the Nicene Creed, which provides the most famous confirmation of the Trinitarian belief, credits the Scriptures for guiding the council's attendees, nothing else.

 

[BobRyan]

You mentioned it, but that doesn't make it so.
The Trinity is about as explicit in Scripture as any Christian doctrine is. In any case, it's believed only because it is taught by Scripture, not for any other reason. Even the Nicene Creed, which provides the most famous confirmation of the Trinitarian belief, credits the Scriptures for guiding the council's attendees, nothing else.

Indeed. They do not say "The Trinity is not a doctrine you will find in the Bible. To know about it - we have to tell it to you because we just now made it up, because Peter's 27th successor just now told us about it"

 

[BobRyan]

Says who? Show us the doctrine of the Trinity in the Bible. Not the definition, the doctrine. Show us the doctrine of the TOC of the Bible.
.

Does the Bible have a "table of contents" -- "Doctrine"??

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

They say He had to have a sinless environment, but if that was true, He would've stayed in heaven.

That would have been my choice. I mean, who in their right mine would want to come back to this godless, sinful planet to be hung on a cross? Would y'all?

John 3:
12 "If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
13 "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.
14 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;…


Mar 15:15
and Pilate, wishing to content the multitude, released to them Barabbas and delivered up Jesus --
having scourged Him -- that He might be crucified.

................................

.