Immaculate Conception

[Rick Otto]

All the points lead...~
How much sin do you think the Mother of God would be permitted?

How much would be unforgiven?

 

[Rick Otto]

Protestants believe all sorts of contradictory things, yet they all read the same bible.

Doesn't sound like the fullness of truth to me.

Right. They don't pretend to have a uniformity that doesn't exist.
Pretense is a core ingredient for catholicism.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Protestants believe all sorts of contradictory things, yet they all read the same bible.

Doesn't sound like the fullness of truth to me.

I don't doubt there are some....sort of like catholics that don't agree with everything the RCC says. I believe there are a fair number of nuns who strongly disagree with the RCC approach to women being active in the church.
But please, give me a few major "contradictory things" that protestants believe....I hear this statement frequently but never followed up by anything of merit.

 

[The Portuguese Baptist]

It is implied. Not everything that is true is in the bible.

I disagree. All Christian doctrinal matters must be in the Bible — otherwise, they have no solid basis.

Where do you see the Trinity mentioned in the bible?

Never explicitly in one single verse, but you can put the pieces of the puzzle together and see that it is biblically clear. Matthew 28:19 suggests some sort of relation amongst the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit; Romans 1:7 says that the Father is God; 1 John 5:20 says that the Son (Jesus) is God; Acts of the Apostles 5:3-4 says that the Holy Spirit is God; and yet 1 Corinthians 8:4 tells us that there is only one God. Put these five passages together, and — there you go! — you have the Trinity in the Bible.

Where do you see us instructed to pray to Jesus in the bible?

I do not. I see us instructed to pray to the Father (Matthew 6:9). However, the Bible does not forbid praying to Jesus, and Stephen prayed to Jesus (Acts of the Apostles 7:59).

 

[Thursday]

I disagree. All Christian doctrinal matters must be in the Bible — otherwise, they have no solid basis.



Never explicitly in one single verse, but you can put the pieces of the puzzle together and see that it is biblically clear. Matthew 28:19 suggests some sort of relation amongst the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit; Romans 1:7 says that the Father is God; 1 John 5:20 says that the Son (Jesus) is God; Acts of the Apostles 5:3-4 says that the Holy Spirit is God; and yet 1 Corinthians 8:4 tells us that there is only one God. Put these five passages together, and — there you go! — you have the Trinity in the Bible.



I do not. I see us instructed to pray to the Father (Matthew 6:9). However, the Bible does not forbid praying to Jesus, and Stephen prayed to Jesus (Acts of the Apostles 7:59).

So then, do we agree that there are many things that are true about our faith that are not explicitly stated in scripture.

 

[The Portuguese Baptist]

[…] Elizabeth greets Mary in Luke 1:43
"And who am I that the mother of my Lord should come and visit me?"

Mary is the mother of Jesus is she not?

Mary as the mother of Jesus? Er… I find it more accurate to say that Mary was the mother of Jesus whilst we lived on Earth. Jesus had existed before Mary did, so she cannot quite be his mother as we would think about it.

Ultimately, though, that does not prove that she is the mother of God. She cannot be, because that would imply that she would have had to exist before God — when, in fact, it was the contrary: God existed before her. Saying that she is the mother of God would imply that she would also be the mother of the Father of Jesus (thus, the grandmother of Jesus? — or perhaps the wife of the Holy Spirit, because she was pregnant as a result of the Holy Spirit's work (Matthew 1:20)?).

Clearly, when Elizabeth told Mary that she was the mother of her Lord, she was thinking only about Jesus and only in earthly terms.

here would be an analogy, like all analogies it is flawed and incomplete, but it does get a point across
if a King marries a peasant woman and she has a son, that woman is the "mother of the prince" even though he gains none of his "princeliness" from his mother, she is still his mother

That analogy fails on too many points. Is Mary the Father's wife? Did Mary exist before Jesus?

 

[The Portuguese Baptist]

So then, do we agree that there are many things that are true about our faith that are not explicitly stated in scripture.

Yes, we agree on that. However, that is beside the point. There is a difference between being ‘biblical’ and being ‘biblically explicit’. Not all doctrines need to be biblically explicit, but they all need to be biblical. The Trinity is not biblically explicit, but it is biblical. However, the Immaculate Conception is not biblical at all.

 

[Thursday]

Yes, we agree on that. However, that is beside the point. There is a difference between being ‘biblical’ and being ‘biblically explicit’. Not all doctrines need to be biblically explicit, but they all need to be biblical. The Trinity is not biblically explicit, but it is biblical. However, the Immaculate Conception is not biblical at all.

That is your opinion. Your opinion is not shared by the early Christians.

 

[Thursday]

Right. They don't pretend to have a uniformity that doesn't exist.
Pretense is a core ingredient for catholicism.

The uniformity that Jesus promised, you mean?

You are correct. Jesus only started one Church and to that Church he gave the promise that it would be led in the fullness of truth.

 

[Albion]

So then, do we agree that there are many things that are true about our faith that are not explicitly stated in scripture.

There may be. Jesus might have had red hair, for instance. We could call that a "truth." But it's not in Scripture.

The point is that a "truth" is not a doctrine. How to bake cookies is also not in the Bible, but who says that the Church has an obligation to make some baking technique an official teaching binding upon all church members?

 

[Albion]

That is your opinion. Your opinion is not shared by the early Christians.

How "early?" and "which Christians?"

 

[Thursday]

I don't doubt there are some....sort of like catholics that don't agree with everything the RCC says.

This is a different issue. Catholics who don't accept Church teaching don't change Church teaching, they are just disobedient sheep.

The point is that the Church is unified in doctrinal teachings. If you want to know what the Church teaches you can look it up.

 

[Thursday]

How "early?" and "which Christians?"

Those who wrote about the issue.

 

[Thursday]

There may be. Jesus might have had red hair, for instance. We could call that a "truth." But it's not in Scripture.

The point is that a "truth" is not a doctrine. How to bake cookies is also not in the Bible, but who says that the Church has an obligation to make some baking technique an official teaching binding upon all church members?

Do you believe that doctrine of the Trinity is true?

Do you believe that the books of the New Testament are scriptural?

 

[Albion]

Those who wrote about the issue.

I didn't think you knew.

 

[Albion]

Do you believe that doctrine of the Trinity is true?

Yes.

Do you believe that the books of the New Testament are scriptural?

Yes. I also believe that Scripture, as God's word, contains all that is necessary for salvation and all that the institutional church may require of its members.

 

[Thursday]

I didn't think you knew.

I do know. Do you want me to provide some quotes?

Can you find any early Christians who rejected the immaculate conception?

 

[Thursday]

Yes.


Yes. I also believe that Scripture, as God's word, contains all that is necessary for salvation and all that the institutional church may require of its members.

Scripture doesn't even tell you which books belong in scripture!!

 

[Albion]

I do know. Do you want me to provide some quotes?

I wouldn't have asked the questions if I didn't expect an answer.

 

[Albion]

Scripture doesn't even tell you which books belong in scripture!!

We are guided by them because they are divine revelation--and even your own church says this--not because of the process by which we came to recognize what they are.