Immaculate Conception

[PeaceByJesus]

I don't follow you. Of course we should hold fast to the oral Word, which itself is the source of the N.T. Canon, which isn't mentioned in Scripture.

As Scripture exhorts, "In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth," (2 Timothy 2:25) thus after a night's sleep i will try some more, with more restraint.

When will Caths realize that SS does not require a list of all inspired writings since Scripture testifies to inspired writings of God being recognized as such resulting in a and a group/canon of such being established ( before the church began, and without an infallible magisterium. And which writings provided the theological and prophetic foundation for the church

Thus the Lord and apostles heavily referenced OT writings, and the status of these as Scripture is never seen being challenged by those who sat in the seat of Moses, and if these were recognized and established as being authoritative (even if not by all, nor today) then Scripture provides for recognition of more complementary, conflative writings being recognized and established as being of God, and thus for a fuller canon.

In contrast, Scripture nowhere testifies to believers treating created beings in Heaven as fitting objects of prayer, or of them being able to hear from Heaven the mental or oral corporate prayers, thus requiring both to somehow be in the same realm for two-way communication btwn such, and which was personal, not hearing corporate prayer in Heaven. And angels and elders offering up the prayers of saints as a memorial in the day of the Lord is not that.

Christ himself taught only orally.

Indeed, as did apostles, and SS preachers can enjoin obedience to their oral preaching, but which presupposes it is Scriptural, with the veracity of such preaching being subject to examination by Scripture, versus resting upon the premise of ensured personal or magisterial infallibility as with Rome, and only God.

But in further distinction,Rome also does not claim to speak under the inspiration God as with Scripture, nor to provide new revelation, as did some of apostolic preaching.

But we know what oral preaching was of God by its inclusion in Holy Writ, while Catholicism presumes that since some of the word of God was orally preached then it gives them freedom to declare what they will to be equal with Scripture, making such binding belief even over 1700 after something allegedly occurred, and is lacking in testimony from tradition!

Thus the tradition of Rome is a different animal than that of Scripture, and RCs cannot obey 2Thes. 2:15 as they cannot prove what Paul was specifically referring to, except as recorded in Scripture, which was the norm for anything called the word of God/the Lord, as a search of that phrase will show.

He said to the leaders of the Church: "whoever listens to you, listens to me. whoever rejects you, rejects me".

Which is more wresting of Scripture, as Lk. 10:16 was said to the 72 whom the Lord Himself sent forth who (except for the 12) are never named or shown to have successors, and which were given instructions and power to heal as testimony to their simple message that "the kingdom of God is come nigh unto you," not whatever they and their hypothetical formal successors declare is the word of God.

Thus these were not some "priests" performing "last rites" which typically is a precursor to death, while at best reference a few rare miracles of healing, but those whose preaching was presently accompanied by healing.

Yet on the other hand it did not exclude those who were not of the apostle's company from validly manifestly ministering in the name of the Lord, which sectarian spirit the Lord rebuked. (Mk. 9:38-40)

And as the evangelical gospel is testified to by miraculous regeneration with its profound transformative effects, and sometimes with others, then the judgment of Lk. 10:16 can apply to anyone who rejects such manifest Scriptural preaching of the gospel. But not such as the noble Bereans who "received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." (Acts 17:11) and thus would reject claims of Rome.

And he founded a Church, built on Rock.

Indeed, and in reproving exalting men, the Spirit warns, "other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ." (1 Corinthians 3:11)

And in contrast to Peter, that the LORD Jesus is the Rock (“petra”) or "stone" (“lithos,” and which denotes a large rock in Mk. 16:4) upon which the church is built is one of the most abundantly confirmed doctrines in the Bible (petra: Rm. 9:33; 1Cor. 10:4; 1Pet. 2:8; cf. Lk. 6:48; 1Cor. 3:11; lithos: Mat. 21:42; Mk.12:10-11; Lk. 20:17-18; Act. 4:11; Rm. 9:33; Eph. 2:20; cf. Dt. 32:4, Is. 28:16) including by Peter himself. (1Pt. 2:4-8) Rome's current catechism attempts to have Peter himself as the rock as well, but also affirms: “On the rock of this faith confessed by St Peter, Christ build his Church,” (pt. 1, sec. 2, cp. 2, para. 424) which understanding some of the so-called “church fathers” concur with.)

So naturally (and supernaturally) we would need to find out where the true Church is and hold fast to what she teaches.

And as the church is NOT the foundation for Truth, despite what Caths attempt to extrapolate out of 1Tim. 3:15, but instead supports and rests upon it, since it began upon the theological and prophetic foundation of Scripture, to which even the preaching of the apostles was subject to by noble lovers of Truth, then it is to that unique substantive wholly inspired body of Truth that we must look.

And in which we see that "church" as regards that which the Lord purchased with His own sinless shed blood (Acts 20:32) and is His bride, (Eph. 5:25-32) refers to the universal corporate church which only consists of true believers, while the visible churches invetably consist of wheat and tares, and cannot be the one true church.

And as concerns the latter, as the church of Rome is the most manifest examples of the deformation of the New church, then true believers need to separate from this unholy admixture. Which in addition to false teaching, even treats proabortion prohomosexual public figures as members in life and in death, thus manifesting her understanding of her laws, while papal teachings is that the one basic duty of RCs is to follow their pastors as docile sheep.

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. (2 Corinthians 6:14-16)

 

[patricius79]

More parrotted pseudo polemics, as the FACT is that 1Cor. 3:8ff refers to the loss of rewards due to the nature of what one built the church with, and only takes place at the Lord's return (1Cor. 4:5; 2Tim. 4:1,8; Rev.11:18; Mt. 25:31-46; 1Pt. 1:7; 5:4) versus purifying suffering commencing at death!
.

I know Paul says that if a person's work is burned up, that persons will suffer loss and be saved, but only as through fire. I don't see where the Bible says that does not refer to suffering after death. I know the Church teaches that the Immaculata consoles the souls in Purgatory (Hades).

 

[patricius79]

As Scripture exhorts, "In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth," (2 Timothy 2:25) thus after a night's sleep i will try some more, with more restraint.

When will Caths realize that SS does not require a list of all inspired writings since Scripture testifies to inspired writings of God being recognized as such resulting in a and a group/canon of such being established ( before the church began, and without an infallible magisterium. And which writings provided the theological and prophetic foundation for the church
)

Thanks for trying to be civil. Something we all need to work on.

As far as your second paragraph here, I perceive you are assuming that the writings of Paul, etc, are Scripture. But that is the very point that Paul and the other early writings never make. And they never even tell us that there is a New Testament. As far as the Old Testament, there again, they relied on the oral traditions and the Jewish Magisterium, however flawed. In the New Covenant, it is the Catholic Church's members who wrote the Scriptures, and the Catholic Church's Magisterium which defined the N.T. Canon., just as they also have teach that Mary is immaculately conceived, the Mediatrix of all Graces

 

[patricius79]

And as the church is NOT the foundation for Truth, despite what Caths attempt to extrapolate out of 1Tim. 3:15, but instead supports and rests upon it, since it began upon the theological and prophetic foundation of Scripture, to which even the preaching of the apostles was subject to by noble lovers of Truth, then it is to that unique substantive wholly inspired body of Truth that we must look.

And in which we see that "church" as regards that which the Lord purchased with His own sinless shed blood (Acts 20:32) and is His bride, (Eph. 5:25-32) refers to the universal corporate church which only consists of true believers, while the visible churches invetably consist of wheat and tares, and cannot be the one true church.

According to the Word of God, the Church is the Pillar and Foundation of the Truth, built on Simon Rock who is given the keys to the Kingdom; and is Christ's Body, the fullness of the One who fills all things in every way. The Church is the Mountain of the Lord's House . Mountains are visible. Bodies are visible. The Church is the light of the world. A City set on a Hill cannot be hid. The Bible describes a clearly visible Church with organization and ability to officially settle disputes, as at the Catholic Council of Jerusalem. Christ said that the Kingdom of Heaven is like a net which collected all kinds of fish, both good and bad. Though all in the Church on earth are sinners, the Church's holiness is preserved by Christ, especially through Immaculate Mary.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

According to the Word of God, the Church is the Pillar and Foundation of the Truth, built on Simon Rock.

So rather than actually interacting with what refutes this you simply post more propaganda!

The Bible describes a clearly visible Church with organization and ability to officially settle disputes, as at the Catholic Council of Jerusalem.

SS affirms the magisterial office, the Westminster Confession shows, but the Council of Jerusalem was not Catholic, as what was affirmed was the gospel of grace, purifying the heart by faith before baptism, (Acts 10:43-47; 15:7-11) and with James being the one who provided the Scripturally substantiated final judgment, confirmatory of Peter and Paul. With the veracity of which being due to Scriptural substantiation in word and in power.

the Church's holiness is preserved by Christ, especially through Immaculate Mary.

Every time you are shown to be in error then you resort to cultic parroting of RC propaganda, for which you will give an account for, while you have marginalized yourself as one who cannot be reasoned with due to your cultic devotion, while i am sorry if i seem to harsh. May God yet give RCs grace and mercy unto the acknowledging of the Truth.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

I know Paul says that if a person's work is burned up, that persons will suffer loss and be saved, but only as through fire. I don't see where the Bible says that does not refer to suffering after death. I know the Church teaches that the Immaculata consoles the souls in Purgatory (Hades).

If you could allow yourself to think outside the programming then you might see that the suffering is not that of perfection of character so that he could be with God, but that of "suffering loss" or rewards, and that such is saved despite this loss, not because of it, and which judgment awaits the return of Christ. Thus 1Co. 3:8ff cannot refer to Rome's Purgatory. Give it up!

I know the Church teaches

Which is all that matters for you, which is cultic, and the mindless recourse to that despite the reproof of Scripture is an argument against being an RC! May God grant you repentance in His mercy.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

Thanks for trying to be civil. Something we all need to work on.

As far as your second paragraph here, I perceive you are assuming that the writings of Paul, etc, are Scripture. But that is the very point that Paul and the other early writings never make. And they never even tell us that there is a New Testament. As far as the Old Testament, there again, they relied on the oral traditions and the Jewish Magisterium, however flawed. In the New Covenant, it is the Catholic Church's members who wrote the Scriptures, and the Catholic Church's Magisterium which defined the N.T. Canon., just as they also have teach that Mary is immaculately conceived, the Mediatrix of all Graces

Not again! One question: do you even read and consider what i laborious wrote before you simply reiterate the same refuted argument and assertions? I am finished with you.

 

[Root of Jesse]

You posted a provocative pilfered (non-attributed) polemic which called for a response.

Indeed.

Indeed.

Indeed.
Are they wrong about saints in heaven, or wherever they are?
Indeed.

Insofar as Scripturally manifest, which exposing the fallacious nature of RC propaganda helps to do, by God's grace.

Not for me.

No, i am not running for pope, but hope to point them to Christ and His wholly inspired word. Do you think what Rome promulgates in addition to Scripture is spoken under that same inspiration?

Well, you're just wrong, with all your "Indeeds". You cannot prove that any Catholic doctrine is contra-scripture. It may be extra-scriptural, but there are many things mentioned in Scripture which have no reference in Scripture.

Anyway, even if you hope to point someone to Christ, and we can debate what constitutes His wholly inspired word, you cannot. You can sow seeds, but you cannot make them grow. Some of what "Rome" promulgates is, INDEED, inspired by the Holy Spirit. Typically, it's when the Pope is teaching the entire Church on matters of faith and morals, a very narrow qualification.

 

[patricius79]

So rather than actually interacting with what refutes this you simply post more propaganda!

SS affirms the magisterial office, the Westminster Confession shows, but the Council of Jerusalem was not Catholic, as what was affirmed was the gospel of grace, purifying the heart by faith before baptism, (Acts 10:43-47; 15:7-11) and with James being the one who provided the Scripturally substantiated final judgment, confirmatory of Peter and Paul. With the veracity of which being due to Scriptural substantiation in word and in power.

Every time you are shown to be in error then you resort to cultic parroting of RC propaganda, for which you will give an account for, while you have marginalized yourself as one who cannot be reasoned with due to your cultic devotion, while i am sorry if i seem to harsh. May God yet give RCs grace and mercy unto the acknowledging of the Truth.

Scripture definitely shows a visible Catholic Church, founded on Simon Rock, whose role at the Council of Jerusalem was crucial. First there is much debate. After Rock speaks, the assembly fell silent. Rock doesn't quote Scripture, but cites his authority and the fact that the Holy Spirit has been given to the Gentiles. Previously if I remember right, Rock was given a special revelation concerning the Gentiles--not from Scripture Alone-- after which the first Gentiles were admitted to the Church. And James cites Rock in his decision, as well as a Scripture which doesn't talk about the issue of the law, and then he goes beyond Scripture with his judgment That primacy of Rock doesn't mean Rock has to dominate. As I understand it, the first Council (the Council of Jerusalem) was in response to a heresy taught by the flock of James, who were troubling the visible Catholic Church in the region. So in response, the visible Catholic Church settled the matter and then sent word to the local churches what the decision was. Visible Church. Visible Church authority passed on by those appointed by the Church.. At this time, I suppose that the Immaculate Mother of God was still in the world--this was before she was Assumed into Heaven--and was praying for the infant Catholic Church. Of course God works outside the sacraments. Scripture is clear that the ordinary way of salvation is through the sacrament of baptism--"they were saved through water. This prefigures baptism, which saves you now"--and the other sacraments, such as eating Christ's Flesh and Drinking His Blood (John 6:53). And that the Holy Spirit is given through the imposition of hands (Sacrament of Confirmation). For example, in Acts 8:17, or Acts 19:6, or Hebrews 6:1, Hebrews 6:2, which says instructions about laying on of hand is fundamental Christian doctrine along with faith, repentance, and the Resurrection! But God is always free to work on souls before baptism, and in extraordinary ways as well. As the Church's Catechism says, God has bound salvation to the sacrament of baptism, but He himself is not bound.

 

[BobRyan]

Scripture definitely shows a visible Catholic Church, founded on Simon Rock, whose role at the Council of Jerusalem was crucial. First there is much debate. After Rock speaks, the assembly fell silent. Rock doesn't quote Scripture, but cites his authority and the fact that the Holy Spirit has been given to the Gentiles. Previously if I remember right, Rock was given a special revelation concerning the Gentiles--not from Scripture Alone-- after which the first Gentiles were admitted to the Church. And James cites Rock in his decision, as well as a Scripture which doesn't talk about the issue of the law, and then he goes beyond Scripture with his judgment That primacy of Rock doesn't mean Rock has to dominate. .

1 Cor 3
10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation - Rock, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. 11 For no man can lay a foundation-ROCK other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man builds on the foundation-ROCK with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each man’s work will become evident

1 Cor 10
3 and all ate the same spiritual food; 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual Rock which followed them; and the Rock was Christ.

Matt 16
22 Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “God forbid it, Lord! This shall never happen to You.” 23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but man’s.”

Gal 2
11 Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; 12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. 13 And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy.

Acts 15
13 And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, “Men and brethren, listen to me: 14 Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:
16 ‘After this I will return
And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down;
I will rebuild its ruins,
And I will set it up;
17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
Says the Lord who does all these things.’
18 “Known to God from eternity are all His works. 19 Therefore I (JAMES) judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God, 20 but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

 

[Panevino]

If you could allow yourself to think outside the programming then you might see that the suffering is not that of perfection of character so that he could be with God, but that of "suffering loss" or rewards, and that such is saved despite this loss, not because of it, and which judgment awaits the return of Christ. Thus 1Co. 3:8ff cannot refer to Rome's Purgatory. Give it up!

I think you may? misunderstand the Catholic doctrine of purgatory.we don't think they are saved "because of the suffering" Purgatory does not save you. You are already "saved" if you are there and are being conformed completely To his will in the presence of God by grace. Like a furnace his immediate presence at the particular judgement refines.

 

[BobRyan]

I think you may? misunderstand the Catholic doctrine of purgatory.we don't think they are saved "because of the suffering" Purgatory does not save you. You are already "saved" if you are there and are being conformed completely To his will in the presence of God by grace. Like a furnace his immediate presence at the particular judgement refines.

1. Purgatory is an invented doctrine - not found in the Bible - about a bank of excess suffering contributed by the saints. And the idea of "venial" sins for which there is forgiveness from "hell" but not forgiveness from "bankruptcy" or "running out of gas" or "flunking a math test" or "losing your job" or other such "natural consequences" for having sinned. The idea is that since you died suddenly and did not live long enough to "lose your job" or to suffer some other such "consequence" for a given sin that normally would have happened - it all happens to you in purgatory, after which you will be allowed into heaven.
2. Indulgences are an invented aspect of the invented purgatory doctrine - which allows the RCC to be master of the checks that can be written against that spiritual bank of suffering and applied to the loved ones in purgatory because anyone with any love at all for their departed loved one - would want to get them out of the horrible condition in purgatory ASAP!.
3. Initially the result of all this made-up-story was to get money for the RCC by way of payment for indulgences. But today it is less about money and more about the fear of all the tortures one might have to suffer in made-up purgatory --- and the RCC being that source of mercy that might get you out.

When you have a blank check to "make stuff up" without any worry that someone will "study the scriptures daily to see IF those things are SO" Acts 17:11 there is no limit.

 

[Radrook]

I'm sure Mary would be shocked to see all the ostentatious worshipful attention she is receiving because she gave birth to Jesus. After all, she very humbly described herself as God's maidservant and nothing more. Neither is there any indication in the NT that she had become the intense focus of any special attention during the time described by the book of acts or in any of the letters sent to the early churches.

 

[katerinah1947]

I'm sure Mary would be shocked to see all the ostentatious worshipful attention she is receiving because she gave birth to Jesus. After all, she very humbly described herself as God's maidservant and nothing more. Neither is there any indication in the NT that she had become the intense focus of any special attention during the time described by the book of acts or in any of the letters sent to the early churches.

Hi,

Mary, the handmaiden of The Lord, even before the angel Gabriel, spoke to her, for God, rather than being appalled, is still probably doing The Will of God.

Thus things like Guadalupe, Lourdes and Fatima rather than appalling her, delight her, as That is God's Will with her.

That I know of the word, worship, and Mary, is only used by those, who know little, and make the mistake.

Pagans might be making that same mistake.

Mary is not worshipped, Mary is not appalled.

LOVE,

 

[patricius79]

1 Cor 3
10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation - Rock, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. 11 For no man can lay a foundation-ROCK other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man builds on the foundation-ROCK with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each man’s work will become evident

1 Cor 10
3 and all ate the same spiritual food; 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual Rock which followed them; and the Rock was Christ.

Matt 16
22 Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “God forbid it, Lord! This shall never happen to You.” 23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but man’s.”

Gal 2
11 Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; 12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. 13 And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy.

Acts 15
13 And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, “Men and brethren, listen to me: 14 Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:
16 ‘After this I will return
And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down;
I will rebuild its ruins,
And I will set it up;
17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
Says the Lord who does all these things.’
18 “Known to God from eternity are all His works. 19 Therefore I (JAMES) judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God, 20 but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

Right. So clearly in 1 Corinthians 3 Paul teaches that some will suffer loss and be saved, yet only as through fire. And in Scripture, Christ gives Simon a name--"Rock"--associated with God himself. Rock is a sinful human being like all the Apostles, yet he is given the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven. His role at the Council of Jerusalem, coming after much debate, silenced the opposition. James cites him in his decision. The Successors of Rock, the Popes, continue to teach the truth about God and the Immaculate Mother of God.

 

[Panevino]

1. Purgatory is an invented doctrine - not found in the Bible - about a bank of excess suffering contributed by the saints. And the idea of "venial" sins for which there is forgiveness from "hell" but not forgiveness from "bankruptcy" or "running out of gas" or "flunking a math test" or "losing your job" or other such "natural consequences" for having sinned. The idea is that since you died suddenly and did not live long enough to "lose your job" or to suffer some other such "consequence" for a given sin that normally would have happened - it all happens to you in purgatory, after which you will be allowed into heaven.

strawman.
Rather than relating to some kind of list of unaccomplished punishments,
Purgatory (faced with the power of God) refines a person of thier remnant attachments /inclinations to sin. Conforming them to the will of God.
FYI - Penances given after confession are not a punishment they are a form spiritual excercise to help the forgiven person to form their will better on their ongoing journey and strengthen their relationship with Jesus through prayer/fasting to help prevent them falling into the sin again.

2. Indulgences are an invented aspect of the invented purgatory doctrine - which allows the RCC to be master of the checks that can be written against that spiritual bank of suffering and applied to the loved ones in purgatory because anyone with any love at all for their departed loved one - would want to get them out of the horrible condition in purgatory ASAP!.
3. Initially the result of all this made-up-story was to get money for the RCC by way of payment for indulgences. But today it is less about money and more about the fear of all the tortures one might have to suffer in made-up purgatory --- and the RCC being that source of mercy that might get you out.

strawman
To be clear Indulgences do not deal with forgiveness of sin. They deal with the above mentioned excercises (so to speak) about dealing with consequences/inclinations to sin.
In the past, one of the spiritual exercises was giving alms along with prayer, pilgrimages, helping widows etc...these were all associated with "indulgences" which are part of forming our will.

The use of Alms did get abused in some areas, and the Church acknowledged it and put a stop to it. But the use of alms for the forgiveness of sins was never doctrine.

When you have a blank check to "make stuff up" without any worry that someone will "study the scriptures daily to see IF those things are SO" Acts 17:11 there is no limit.

 

[Panevino]

1 Cor 3
10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation - Rock, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. 11 For no man can lay a foundation-ROCK other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man builds on the foundation-ROCK with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each man’s work will become evident

1 Cor 10
3 and all ate the same spiritual food; 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual Rock which followed them; and the Rock was Christ.

Please understand that Catholics do not deny that Christ is the Rock.
But we also acknowledge that as with other roles Jesus allows participation in his priesthood.
As Christ is called a corner stone with body of Christ being subordinate stones.

1 Peter 2:5-7
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

Likewise the apostles have a role in the foundation
Ephesians 2:20
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Catholics recognize this significance of the apostles and in particular Peter as the chief apostle in founding the church and have comfort in calling him rock with obvious understanding that it is subordinate to Christ as the rock.

Matt 16

22 Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “God forbid it, Lord! This shall never happen to You.” 23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but man’s.”

Gal 2
11 Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; 12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. 13 And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy.

These are not a concern for Catholic understanding of the papacy.
Popes are human like Peter was.

Acts 15

13 And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, “Men and brethren, listen to me: 14 Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:
16 ‘After this I will return
And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down;
I will rebuild its ruins,
And I will set it up;
17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
Says the Lord who does all these things.’
18 “Known to God from eternity are all His works. 19 Therefore I (JAMES) judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God, 20 but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

I understand "They were silent " is a euphemism for it was settled

 

[PeaceByJesus]

Well, you're just wrong, with all your "Indeeds". You cannot prove that any Catholic doctrine is contra-scripture.

Of course I can and have, but for faithful devout RCs since autocratically presumes ensured perpetual (conditional) magisterial infallibility - which itself is a novel unScriptural presumption - then no amount of evidence can be allowed to warrant a guilty verdict. Scripture,tradition and history only mean what she says in any conflict.

Some of what "Rome" promulgates is, INDEED, inspired by the Holy Spirit. Typically, it's when the Pope is teaching the entire Church on matters of faith and morals, a very narrow qualification

Wrong. Inspiration signifies a special positive Divine influence and assistance by reason of which the human agent is not merely preserved from liability to error but is so guided and controlled that what he says or writes is truly the word of God, that God Himself is the principal author of the inspired utterance; but infallibility merely implies exemption from liability to error. God is not the author of a merely infallible, as He is of an inspired, utterance; the former remains a merely human document. - Catholic Encyclopedia>Infallibility[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]

Merely being correct is not the same thing as speaking the actual inspired word of God, which has a unique anointing.

For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. (Hebrews 4:4; cf. Gn. 2:2)

Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. (Hebrews 4:7)

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. (Hebrews 4:12)

 

[katerinah1947]

Hi,

Another way to look at The Immaculate Conception, is words from the Apparition at Lourdes:

Bernadette hurried off toward the presbytery, repeating the Lady's strange words, so as not to forget them. She met Fr. Peyramale and left him dumbfounded with the words "I am the Immaculate Conception"; he realised that the Lady had indeed answered his request for her name. Although the message of Lourdes was now complete, Bernadette again saw Mary on the Wednesday after Easter, April 7, remaining in an ecstasy for about three quarters of an hour.


Reference:


http://www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/approved/appariti/lourdes.html

Bernadette and Lourdes - 1858

The apparitions at Lourdes took place only four years after the proclamation of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception, in 1854, and given their nature it is only natural to see a strong link between the two.

On Thursday 11 February 1858, fourteen year old Bernadette Soubirous saw a beautiful young girl in a niche at a rocky outcrop called Massabielle, about a half mile outside the town. She was near a wild rose bush and surrounded by a brilliant light and a golden cloud, smiling, with her arms extended towards Bernadette, who took out her rosary beads.


LOVE,

 

[katerinah1947]

Hi,

A historical account on The Determination of The Immaculate Conception from Dayton University:

http://campus.udayton.edu/mary/resources/kimmac.html

LOVE,