Immaculate Conception - Why Did It Take 1,854 Years to Discover This Doctrine?

[StTherese]

That would make her The Lamb of God.
Only Jesus was born without sin.

...and no that wouldn't make her the lamb of God...but the vessel through which God chose to bring us the Lamb of God.

 

[Rick Otto]

Born without original sin, just like Jesus.
Only we know she ain't just like Jesus, is she?
His bein' her baby made her a "vessel". She didn't have to be anything other than a virgin according to God.

Did you know the Pope who called together the council to define the IC kidnapped a Jewish baby & raised him to be a Catholic priest, because a Catholic housemaid had baptized him?
Have you read any accounts of that council, who was 'against' & who was 'for'? How the council was manipulated & the issue of the IC was used as a front for getting Infallability approved?

Were you aware that that same pope was the one dealing with the severe loss of temporal power, needing Napolean to rescue him from the Italian nationalists?

Probably not, and all beside the point for you, I bet.

 

[StTherese]

Born without original sin, just like Jesus.
Only we know she ain't just like Jesus, is she?

What about Adam and Eve??? They were created without original sin and yet they were not "just like Jesus" were they?

Did you know the Pope who called together the council to define the IC kidnapped a Jewish baby & raised him to be a Catholic priest, because a Catholic housemaid had baptized him?
Have you read any accounts of that council, who was 'against' & who was 'for'? How the council was manipulated & the issue of the IC was used as a front for getting Infallability approved?

Were you aware that that same pope was the one dealing with the severe loss of temporal power, needing Napolean to rescue him from the Italian nationalists?

Probably not, and all beside the point for you, I bet.

Regardless whether or not any of that is true (which I doubt), the Church is protected by the Holy Spirit from teaching error. Although the Church is made of sinners...she is made holy through Christ.

 

[Rick Otto]

If example is the best teacher, it would seem error abounds.
The Church is composed of saints with a sin problem, not sinners with a salvation problem.

It's like describing Cleveland as a football town with a drinking problem. It's not. It's a drinking town with a football problem!

Adam and Eve weren't born.
Jesus was.

 

[IamAdopted]

What about Adam and Eve??? They were created without original sin and yet they were not "just like Jesus" were they?

Regardless whether or not any of that is true (which I doubt), the Church is protected by the Holy Spirit from teaching error. Although the Church is made of sinners...she is made holy through Christ.

Yes Adam and Eve were created out of the dust of the earth for Adam and Eve from His side.. Then from that day forward it is called procreation.. For God gave Adam dominion.. Been that way ever since. Sin entered we see when Adam ate.. Therefore scripture tells us that through Adam sin came. Through Christ life came. Nothing about EVE or Mary.. For every scripture testifies of Christ.. Never has of Mary. Mary was the mother of Jesus according to the flesh.. But His Father was and is and will always be God.. Jesus is God in the flesh.. He is God. There is no sin in Him and He is truth.. This is the Only man born without sin. He is God.

 

[StTherese]

If example is the best teacher, it would seem error abounds.
The Church is composed of saints with a sin problem, not sinners with a salvation problem.

It's like describing Cleveland as a football town with a drinking problem. It's not. It's a drinking town with a football problem!

Adam and Eve weren't born.
Jesus was.

Yes Adam and Eve were created out of the dust of the earth for Adam and Eve from His side.. Then from that day forward it is called procreation.. For God gave Adam dominion.. Been that way ever since. Sin entered we see when Adam ate.. Therefore scripture tells us that through Adam sin came. Through Christ life came. Nothing about EVE or Mary.. For every scripture testifies of Christ.. Never has of Mary. Mary was the mother of Jesus according to the flesh.. But His Father was and is and will always be God.. Jesus is God in the flesh.. He is God. There is no sin in Him and He is truth.. This is the Only man born without sin. He is God.

I feel like you are both missing the point of what I am saying.
Did Mary need a savior? Yes. She WAS born from sinful man...but, God saved her at her conception by the merits of Christ. This has been the teaching of the Church from the beginning.

How could God have been born to a sinful woman? If you think about it...the more we receive Jesus, the less sin has a hold on us. When we receive communion, we must examine ourselves to be sure that we are not attached to sin or that we have not committed a sin without repentance and absolution. We are told that if we receive Him unworthily, that we are responsible for the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ. It would be a sacrilege...imagine how much more so, to give birth to God; to raise Him and nurture Him.



God can do whatever He wants. You can not say it is impossible for God to save Mary at her conception...especially when if fact, He did.

 

[IamAdopted]

I feel like you are both missing the point of what I am saying.
Did Mary need a savior? Yes. She WAS born from sinful man...but, God saved her at her conception by the merits of Christ. This has been the teaching of the Church from the beginning.

How could God have been born to a sinful woman? If you think about it...the more we receive Jesus, the less sin has a hold on us. When we receive communion, we must examine ourselves to be sure that we are not attached to sin or that we have not committed a sin without repentance and absolution. We are told that if we receive Him unworthily, that we are responsible for the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ. It would be a sacrilege...imagine how much more so, to give birth to God; to raise Him and nurture Him.



God can do whatever He wants. You can not say it is impossible for God to save Mary at her conception...especially when if fact, He did.

Show me this in scripture please.. For Christ works had not been done yet. So therefore how Could Mary be saved from sin at conception? The CC might teach this but I don't see this in scripture.. We are to take what we hear and line it up to Gods standard.. His word..

 

[StTherese]

Show me this in scripture please.. For Christ works had not been done yet. So therefore how Could Mary be saved from sin at conception? The CC might teach this but I don't see this in scripture.. We are to take what we hear and line it up to Gods standard.. His word..

Well, to start with, the Bible is a book of letters and epistles inspired by God and compiled by the Catholic Church. We should look to the Church for the correct interpretations and understanding of the sciptures. They must be read in light of the intention of the inspired writers which has been handed down through the Church established by Christ by the Holy Spirit. Our personal interpretations mean nothing. Could we come to the correct understanding?...of course...but is it possible to misinterpret when left to our own intellects...yes...thus the need for the Church in such matters.


http://www.catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp
The Catholic Church was commissioned by Christ to teach all nations and to teach them infallibly—guided, as he promised, by the Holy Spirit until the end of the world (John 14:26, 16:13). The mere fact that the Church teaches that something is definitely true is a guarantee that it is true (cf. Matt. 28:18-20, Luke 10:16, 1 Tim. 3:15).


Consider an analogy: Suppose a man falls into a deep pit, and someone reaches down to pull him out. The man has been "saved" from the pit. Now imagine a woman walking along, and she too is about to topple into the pit, but at the very moment that she is to fall in, someone holds her back and prevents her. She too has been saved from the pit, but in an even better way: She was not simply taken out of the pit, she was prevented from getting stained by the mud in the first place. This is the illustration Christians have used for a thousand years to explain how Mary was saved by Christ. By receiving Christ’s grace at her conception, she had his grace applied to her before she was able to become mired in original sin and its stain.

 

[IamAdopted]

Well, to start with, the Bible is a book of letters and epistles inspired by God and compiled by the Catholic Church. We should look to the Church for the correct interpretations and understanding of the sciptures. They must be read in light of the intention of the inspired writers which has been handed down through the Church established by Christ by the Holy Spirit. Our personal interpretations mean nothing. Could we come to the correct understanding?...of course...but is it possible to misinterpret when left to our own intellects...yes...thus the need for the Church in such matters.


http://www.catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp
The Catholic Church was commissioned by Christ to teach all nations and to teach them infallibly—guided, as he promised, by the Holy Spirit until the end of the world (John 14:26, 16:13). The mere fact that the Church teaches that something is definitely true is a guarantee that it is true (cf. Matt. 28:18-20, Luke 10:16, 1 Tim. 3:15).


Consider an analogy: Suppose a man falls into a deep pit, and someone reaches down to pull him out. The man has been "saved" from the pit. Now imagine a woman walking along, and she too is about to topple into the pit, but at the very moment that she is to fall in, someone holds her back and prevents her. She too has been saved from the pit, but in an even better way: She was not simply taken out of the pit, she was prevented from getting stained by the mud in the first place. This is the illustration Christians have used for a thousand years to explain how Mary was saved by Christ. By receiving Christ’s grace at her conception, she had his grace applied to her before she was able to become mired in original sin and its stain.

uh huh.. So now show me in scripture again where God reveals to us that Mary was conceived with out sin.

 

[Rick Otto]

THat realy helped clarify. You were right, I didn't grasp exactly what you were saying, but I'm not sure I could believe it makes sense. I mean Regeneration simutaneous with Conception... it is a lot to integrate, foe me, at this point, at least. I need to meditate on that for awhile, I must admit. I will have to examine my thoughts on that, it might require some re-thinking on my part.
Give me a reality check, refresh me, is the IC a required belief? A doctrine? Or an optional belief, (dogma or tradition?) I'm confused (again).

Still, tho sis, ya gotta admit that it is a turnaround for you to play the "impossible" card re: God being born of a "sinful" woman. I concede the appeal of the idea - purity- aka holiness of "the vessel", but I hit a speed bump on the idea that she needed saving if she was sinless,... hope you understand. The world is also a "vessel" in a larger sense, and it didn't need a sin-free prep job...(?)

That was a realy good explanation you gave.
Thanks for schoolin' me!

 

[LivingWordUnity]

uh huh.. So now show me in scripture again where God reveals to us that Mary was conceived with out sin.

It says in the Bible that nothing unclean (i.e. stained with sin) shall enter into Heaven.

Revelation 21:27
"But nothing unclean shall enter it"

If nothing unclean shall enter into Heaven, why would God enter into anything that is unclean?

Also, why would God require Mary to be a virgin if God did not require her to be pure before entering into her womb?

 

[Rick Otto]

You mean like a barn out back of an Inn, a 'synagogue of Satan', or a tax collecter's house full of prostitutes & winebibbers, or a Samaritan town & the company of an adultress at its well, or just a sin riddled world?

BTW, was Mary's womb Heaven?
I missed the memo on that.

I think He wanted a virgin birth to circumvent Original Sin, that is His method of achieving a sin-free baby, not IC.

 

[sunlover1]

Rick tries to confuse us with logic.

 

[Axion]

This is why sin came through ADam and not eve.. For Mary was born of mans seed. Jesus was not.. He came from the Father. So therefore since Mary was born of mans seed she was born in sin.. Jesus came from Heaven and is God therefore He has no sin.

The idea that sin cannot be passed on by a woman is a strange notion, - which of course is nowhere stated in scripture.

Jesus took human flesh and a human nature from Mary. Neither could have been sinful. This is why all Christians prior to recent times were in agreement that Mary was without sin when she received Jesus. The only arguments were at precisely what point Mary was made sinless.

 

[IamAdopted]

You mean like a barn out back of an Inn, a 'synagogue of Satan', or a tax collecter's house full of prostitutes & winebibbers, or a Samaritan town & the company of an adultress at its well, or just a sin riddled world?

BTW, was Mary's womb Heaven?
I missed the memo on that.

I think He wanted a virgin birth to circumvent Original Sin, that is His method of achieving a sin-free baby, not IC.

The virgin birth was to be a sign...

 

[IamAdopted]

The idea that sin cannot be passed on by a woman is a strange notion, - which of course is nowhere stated in scripture.

Jesus took human flesh and a human nature from Mary. Neither could have been sinful. This is why all Christians prior to recent times were in agreement that Mary was without sin when she received Jesus. The only arguments were at precisely what point Mary was made sinless.

You think that God is capable of keeping Mary from original sin but Not Himself?? Well this is quite interesting to say the least..

 

[LivingWordUnity]

You mean like a barn out back of an Inn, a 'synagogue of Satan', or a tax collecter's house full of prostitutes & winebibbers, or a Samaritan town & the company of an adultress at its well, or just a sin riddled world?

BTW, was Mary's womb Heaven?
I missed the memo on that.

I think He wanted a virgin birth to circumvent Original Sin, that is His method of achieving a sin-free baby, not IC.

You missed this question that I wanted someone to answer:

Why would God require Mary to be a virgin if God did not require her to be pure before entering into her womb?

 

[IamAdopted]

It says in the Bible that nothing unclean (i.e. stained with sin) shall enter into Heaven.

Revelation 21:27
"But nothing unclean shall enter it"

If nothing unclean shall enter into Heaven, why would God enter into anything that is unclean?

Also, why would God require Mary to be a virgin if God did not require her to be pure before entering into her womb?

Because Mary is not Heaven..

 

[IamAdopted]

You missed this question that I wanted someone to answer:

Why would God require Mary to be a virgin if God did not require her to be pure before entering into her womb?

Because this was a prophecy fulfilled. It was a sign from God.
Isa 7:13 Then he said, "Listen now, O house of David! Is it too slight a thing for you to try the patience of men, that you will try the patience of my God as well?
Isa 7:14 "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel.

 

[Rick Otto]

You missed this question that I wanted someone to answer:

Why would God require Mary to be a virgin if God did not require her to be pure before entering into her womb?

She was pure in the sense He intended.
"Virgin" means pure, in that sense.
The whole "requirements thing"(The Law), if you'll pardon the expression, was a "object lesson" in how imperfect, and unable to satisfy(fulfill) God's requirements(Law), mankind is. Her virginity was visible, and thus, as Iamadopted pointed out, a sign, whereas purity in the sense of sinlessnes (the IC)was so invisible it took until 1854 to define it.