Immaculate Conception - Why Did It Take 1,854 Years to Discover This Doctrine?

[Hentenza]

I was hoping for something new and original.

I was hoping that you could answer it with something new and original.

 

[sunlover1]

Yes, the Church teaches all are born with original sin but never included Mary in that.

Okay, thanks.

You do not have to be God to be born or created without original sin. Adam and Eve can attest to that along with all the Angels in Heaven.

I don't see the logic here.
She's not an angel.
And Adam and Eve...
There's an obvious distinction.
So why doesn't mary need
to be included?
She did need a saviour right?

Well one would think that if God personally tells you: "I will put enmity between you and the Woman, between your seed and Her Seed." then he really is trying to say something here.

Yes, and there's always been enmity
between the devil and men.

You must realize that John was not writing to Mary but to a certain area where he was during that time.

You believe it wasnt for all of us, but
just those who he was speaking/writing to
at that moment?
So when he said that if we say we
are without sin, we're a liar, that was
only for those ppl back then?

She knew Her place in God's plan. The Oral Word of God tells us She did not sin and can be backed up implicitly by the Written Word.

Didn't Mary call Jesus her Lord and Saviour?

 

[sunlover1]

There are several verses in the bible that contradict the belief that Mary did not have any children besides Jesus and therefore, remained a virgin.
Some of the verses are:
Mat 1:24-25 - "And Joseph arose from his sleep, and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took as his wife, and kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus."

Mat 12:46-47 "While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Yourbrothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You."


Mat 13:55- "Is not this the carpenters son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?"


Mark 6:2-3 - "And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, "Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands? "Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?"

John 2:12 - "After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother, and His brothers, and His disciples; and there they stayed a few days."


Acts 1-14- "These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers."


1 Cor 9:4-5 - "Do we not have a right to eat and drink? Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles, and the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?"


Gal 1:19- "But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lords brother."

The contention of the Catholic church is the greek word "adelphos" for brother or "adelphe" for sister can also be used to refer to "cousins". The problem with this argument is that the context of the passages will also change and not make sense. For example in Mat 13:55, carpenter is literaly understood as Joseph, and mother is literaly understood as Mary, so the use of "cousins" switches contextual meanings in the middle of a sentence.

In order to fully understand the use of the greek words in question, you have to also look at Psalm 69 which is clearly a messianic psalm. Jesus quotes Psalm 69:4 in John 15:25 and Psalm 69:9 in John 2:16-17. Psalm 69-4-9 reads:
"Those who hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of my head; Those who would destroy me are powerful, being wrongfully my enemies, What I did not steal, I then have to restore. 5O God, it is Thou who dost know my folly, And my wrongs are not hidden from Thee. 6May those who wait for Thee not be ashamed through me, O Lord God of hosts; May those who seek Thee not be dishonored through me, O God of Israel, 7Because for Thy sake I have borne reproach; Dishonor has covered my face. 8I have become estranged from my brothers, and an alien to my mothers sons. 9For zeal for Thy house has consumed me, And the reproaches of those who reproach Thee have fallen on me."

This messianic psalm clearly shows that Jesus had brothers. The answer is inescapable. Biblically Mary had other children which biblically invalidates the belief that Mary remained a virgin.

I was hoping that you could answer it with something new and original.

They were cousins.
Mary had His cousins
tagging along all the
time, must be their
mom was a career
woman.
JK.
I don't know, I thought
your verses were pretty
clear Hentenza.
There are a lot of them.
I could see 'cousin' if there
weren't so many.

imo,
sunlover

 

[Hentenza]

All Have Sinned does not apply to Jesus or Mary as both the Written and Oral Word of God assures us.

Where? Cite the verse that proves that.

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

Where? Cite the verse that proves that.

exactly.

 

[Hentenza]

They were cousins.
Mary had His cousins
tagging along all the
time, must be their
mom was a career
woman.
JK.
I don't know, I thought
your verses were pretty
clear Hentenza.
There are a lot of them.
I could see 'cousin' if there
weren't so many.

imo,
sunlover

Well, you know how many "cousins" Jesus had. Must have been a large cousin family.

 

[Kepha]

Mat 1:24-25 - "And Joseph arose from his sleep, and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took as his wife, and kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus."

This was refuted many times in threads like these.

For example in Mat 13:55, carpenter is literaly understood as Joseph, and mother is literaly understood as Mary, so the use of "cousins" switches contextual meanings in the middle of a sentence.

There is nothing being switched here but if it proves anything is how dangerous the Bible alone theory can be in corrupting God's words. If you read later on down in Mat 27:56 you will see that these were the son's of Mary, who was the wife of Zebedee and not Joseph which again is proof of showing you that to use the word brothers as the strict sense being blood only, could be very eronious when trying to prove that Mary, the Mother of God, had children.

56: Among whom was Mary Magdalen, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee.

In order to fully understand the use of the greek words in question, you have to also look at Psalm 69 which is clearly a messianic psalm. Jesus quotes Psalm 69:4 in John 15:25 and Psalm 69:9 in John 2:16-17. Psalm 69-4-9 reads:

"Those who hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of my head; Those who would destroy me are powerful, being wrongfully my enemies, What I did not steal, I then have to restore. 5O God, it is Thou who dost know my folly, And my wrongs are not hidden from Thee. 6May those who wait for Thee not be ashamed through me, O Lord God of hosts; May those who seek Thee not be dishonored through me, O God of Israel, 7Because for Thy sake I have borne reproach; Dishonor has covered my face. 8I have become estranged from my brothers, and an alien to my mothers sons. 9For zeal for Thy house has consumed me, And the reproaches of those who reproach Thee have fallen on me."

This messianic psalm clearly shows that Jesus had brothers. The answer is inescapable. Biblically Mary had other children which biblically invalidates the belief that Mary remained a virgin.

Nice try. If this entire Psalms applies to Christ then it seems your Jesus sinned. Check out verse 6 of that chapter.

God, you know my folly; my faults are not hidden from you.

 

[Kepha]

Where? Cite the verse that proves that.

Show me where it doesn't. Ive read nothing so far that proves this except your own fallible interpretation of Scripture.

 

[Hentenza]

This was refuted many times in threads like these.


There is nothing being switched here but if it proves anything is how dangerous the Bible alone theory can be in corrupting God's words. If you read later on down in Mat 27:56 you will see that these were the son's of Mary, who was the wife of Zebedee and not Joseph which again is proof of showing you that to use the word brothers as the strict sense being blood only, could be very eronious when trying to prove that Mary, the Mother of God, had children.

56: Among whom was Mary Magdalen, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee.




Nice try. If this entire Psalms applies to Christ then it seems your Jesus sinned. Check out verse 6 of that chapter.

God, you know my folly; my faults are not hidden from you.

6May those who wait for Thee not be ashamed through me, O Lord God of hosts; May those who seek Thee not be dishonored through me, O God of Israel, "

Now where does the psalmist say that Jesus sinned. Isn't he speaking of himself? Are you know going to attack the psalmist? mmmm.... Based on verse 4 he also stole, are you now going to accuse Jesus of stealing? Your argument is a smoke screen.

 

[Hentenza]

Show me where it doesn't. Ive read nothing so far that proves this except your own fallible interpretation of Scripture.

You won't cite it because there isn't one. I have already cited the verses that prove that Mary was not kept chaste. So your only avenue left is to throw insults at me. That sure enhances your position...not!

 

[sunlover1]

6May those who wait for Thee not be ashamed through me, O Lord God of hosts; May those who seek Thee not be dishonored through me, O God of Israel, "

Now where does the psalmist say that Jesus sinned. Isn't he speaking of himself? Are you know going to attack the psalmist? mmmm.... Based on verse 4 he also stole, are you now going to accuse Jesus of stealing? Your argument is a smoke screen.

Hi there.
What did you believe Hent?
you were catholic longer than I
was.
What made you stop believing
what Kepha believes?
Or didn't you to begin with?

Just curious.
I was never taught that Mary
was without sin, so I hadnt
thought about it.

thanks,
sunlover

 

[Kepha]

6May those who wait for Thee not be ashamed through me, O Lord God of hosts; May those who seek Thee not be dishonored through me, O God of Israel, "

It is in that chapter. Read and you will see. Check out verse 5 then.

Now where does the psalmist say that Jesus sinned. Isn't he speaking of himself? Are you know going to attack the psalmist? mmmm.... Based on verse 4 he also stole, are you now going to accuse Jesus of stealing? Your argument is a smoke screen.

You started this off on assuming it was speaking of Christ in that verse. I pointed to you to a verse where it is impossible to be talking about Jesus. Your only comeback was to cite a verse you knew well enough I was not speaking of. There is no smoke screen here. Blame your preachers for leading you to believe it was a palsm speaking entirely about Christ.

 

[Kepha]

Hi there.
What did you believe Hent?
you were catholic longer than I
was.
What made you stop believing
what Kepha believes?
Or didn't you to begin with?

Just curious.
I was never taught that Mary
was without sin, so I hadnt
thought about it.

thanks,
sunlover

Hi Sunlover but from many ex Catholics I come in contact with, most never had a good understand on what the Church taught or why which is why they were easily lead away. Dont take offense to that, but that is my observance.

 

[Kepha]

You won't cite it because there isn't one. I have already cited the verses that prove that Mary was not kept chaste. So your only avenue left is to throw insults at me. That sure enhances your position...not!

Where have I insulted you? You have not cited anything that without a doubt proves Mary sinned. I'm sorry you feel you have but you have not.

 

[Hentenza]

Hi there.
What did you believe Hent?
you were catholic longer than I
was.
What made you stop believing
what Kepha believes?
Or didn't you to begin with?

Just curious.
I was never taught that Mary
was without sin, so I hadnt
thought about it.

thanks,
sunlover

Hi Sunlover,

I was taught that Mary was without sin, but when I read my Catholic issues bible it contradicted the teaching. When I asked, I was given the "word of mouth" Catholic doctrine. When I questioned that, I was basically told to go pray a million Hail Mary's and repent for my unbelief. I don't remember finishing the Hail Mary's. LOL!

God bless

 

[Kepha]

Okay, thanks.
I don't see the logic here.
She's not an angel.
And Adam and Eve...
There's an obvious distinction.
So why doesn't mary need
to be included?
She did need a saviour right?

You said She was not God so then absolutely needed to have sin on Her soul. I was making a point that not all of God's creatures are created with Sin.

Yes, and there's always been enmity
between the devil and men.

To the point where this enmity is written right along side Christ's enmity between Satan and Himself? God is trying to tell us something big here.

You believe it wasnt for all of us, but
just those who he was speaking/writing to
at that moment?
So when he said that if we say we
are without sin, we're a liar, that was
only for those ppl back then?

No, I am saying He did not have Mary in mind nor he may not have even had us in mind when he wrote this since it was most likely directed at a certain group. It's like when our Priest preaches this verse to us yet would never feel as if he would have to include her either since it was about us and not Her.

Didn't Mary call Jesus her Lord and Saviour?

Yes, we have already went over this though and it seems as usual, threads like this never end.

 

[Kepha]

Hi Sunlover,

I was taught that Mary was without sin, but when I read my Catholic issues bible it contradicted the teaching. When I asked, I was given the "word of mouth" Catholic doctrine. When I questioned that, I was basically told to go pray a million Hail Mary's and repent for my unbelief. I don't remember finishing the Hail Mary's. LOL!

God bless

From the way you laugh at how easily you gave up on praying the Rosary, it sure sounds like you didnt seek the answers with a sincere heart on why the Church teaches this but you were already duped by the illigical theory of sola Scritpure long before.

 

[ScottBot]

I was hoping that you could answer it with something new and original.

Why would I need to. All of you positions have been answered over and over again since the dawn of Christianity. History gives perspective.

 

[ScottBot]

Hi Sunlover,

I was taught that Mary was without sin, but when I read my Catholic issues bible it contradicted the teaching. When I asked, I was given the "word of mouth" Catholic doctrine. When I questioned that, I was basically told to go pray a million Hail Mary's and repent for my unbelief. I don't remember finishing the Hail Mary's. LOL!

God bless

That would be funny if it wasn't so fraught with error and offensive.

 

[Hentenza]

It is in that chapter. Read and you will see. Check out verse 5 then.

Verse 5-"5O God, thou knowest my foolishness; and my sins are not hid from thee."

Same issue, the sins are psalmist not Jesus. Didn't the Catholic church show you how to interpret a passage?

You started this off on assuming it was speaking of Christ in that verse. I pointed to you to a verse where it is impossible to be talking about Jesus. Your only comeback was to cite a verse you knew well enough I was not speaking of. There is no smoke screen here. Blame your preachers for leading you to believe it was a palsm speaking entirely about Christ.

So Psalm 69 is not messianic? You quoted verse Mat 27:56, but look at what is being said in context. Mat 27:55-56

"55And many women were there beholding afar off, which followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering unto him: 56Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedees children."



Matthew is mere discribing who among women were at the crucifixion. The verse is merely telling who was there. The mother of the Zebedees is not Mary. That is why the phrases are separated by "and". The and does not refer to Mary being the mother of the Zabedees children, it simply says that the mother of the Zebedees children was also there.


I'll tell my preacher to attend the Catholic church so that he can get a proper interpretation...not!