Immaculate Conception - Why Did It Take 1,854 Years to Discover This Doctrine?

[IamAdopted]

The Annotation for Luke 1:28 in the 1582 Catholic Rheims Translation of the Bible in to English says:" 28Full of grace) Note the excellence prerogatives of our B. Lady, and abhor those Heretics which make her no better than other vulgar woman, and therefor to take from her fullness of grace, they say here, Hail freely beloved, contraire to all significations of the Greek word

Now where do you see Jesus calling any woman vulgar? Even Jesus Himself called her woman. Give me a break. LOL..

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

Now where do you see Jesus calling any woman vulgar? Even Jesus Himself called her woman. Give me a break. LOL..

I would switch versions of the Bible..THAT IS vulgar! What is up with that?

 

[sunlover1]

I would switch versions of the Bible..THAT IS vulgar! What is up with that?

No, Jesus was never vulgar:

John 2:3-4
3 And when they wanted wine,
the mother of Jesus saith unto him,
They have no wine.
4 Jesus saith unto her,
Woman, what have I to do with thee?
mine hour is not yet come.

 

[Renton405]

Now where do you see Jesus calling any woman vulgar? Even Jesus Himself called her woman. Give me a break. LOL..

you totally ignored that "Highly favored one" is a corrupt translation.. Only the earlier versions have full of grace translated.. also the latin version has full of grace..

"Kejaritómene" - is filled with grace/full of grace in greek.. not highly favored one, that is a modern incorrected translation common in he NIV and other new bibles..


And no, Jesus addressing Mary as "Woman" is not vulgar.. someone who is blinded by liberal femenism would see it that way.. but if you did the OT would be a million times worse for you then..

 

[Rick Otto]

"Immaculate Conception - Why Did It Take 1,854 Years to Discover This Doctrine? "

-I was just wonderin'...

 

[ScottBot]

As long as one realizes that the word vulgar means common, it does not mean vile or offensive.

 

[ScottBot]

Yes, it was answered a long, long time ago. Many of the posters here just don't like the answer, so continue to ask the question until someone says something they like.

 

[Renton405]

"Immaculate Conception - Why Did It Take 1,854 Years to Discover This Doctrine? "

-I was just wonderin'...

yea it did, didn't you read the first page of the thread?? Its just most protestants love to nit pick on Catholic theology because their prideful, so it will continue to go on ..

 

[simonthezealot]

Its just most protestants love to nit pick on Catholic theology ..

For good reason, it bucks scripture...

 

[IamAdopted]

you totally ignored that "Highly favored one" is a corrupt translation.. Only the earlier versions have full of grace translated.. also the latin version has full of grace..

"Kejaritómene" - is filled with grace/full of grace in greek.. not highly favored one, that is a modern incorrected translation common in he NIV and other new bibles..


And no, Jesus addressing Mary as "Woman" is not vulgar.. someone who is blinded by liberal femenism would see it that way.. but if you did the OT would be a million times worse for you then..

I did not say that Jesus addressed Mary in a vulgar way at all. I was addressing the other post where someone said that other woman other than mary were vulgar. Jesus called Mary Woman. Jesus never called any woman a names such as vulgar.. I had to leave so I didn't get to finish what I wanted to about the post that someone put up there. Sorry for all the confusion and mess I may have caused.

 

[ScottBot]

For good reason, it bucks scripture...

PKB

 

[simonthezealot]

PKB

The list of bucking scripture is to immense to list.
And why do it, for you guys have the maxim that things don't need to be of scripture anyway.
And your wrong saying "pkb" the reformed way is the scriptural way.
The catholic way is the ways of man.

 

[Kepha]

Actually it is enough. For we take Gods word as written as told to do.

We are told to hold on to both oral and written, and not just limit God's word to Written only as being sufficient.

You have misread this scripture. He did not say in there all went out. He said people went out to Him from.

I copied from an online Bible and didn't misread anything since I'm not saying they all actually went out. You are also not making sense whether it is from or not.
People came from All of Judea and the region. All in your understanding of the word should mean that the entire Judea, every square inch of it, people came from which is highly doubtful. Mine simply means allot or many from that region or people came from much of that region.

Here is another:

Mt. 23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom:..........again, not likely Jesus went to every speck of square inch in Galilee teaching in thier synagogues.

This was the Pharasee's talking. We know how honost they were.

They said the entire world and not ones who didn't bow. Sure we may understand they didnt mean every single human on earth but nevertheless, the word 'all' or 'whole' world was in there. They had no reason to be dishonest and decieving since if you read that verse, they were discussing it amongst each other who knew better. They were exagerating obviously. We know this for a fact unless they all lived in a box and really meant the entire world including themselves. One again. All doesnt mean All as in the perfect literal sense.

All Have Sinned does not apply to Jesus or Mary as both the Written and Oral Word of God assures us.

 

[sunlover1]

All Have Sinned does not apply to Jesus or Mary as both the Written and Oral Word of God assures us.

You've proven that all doesn't necessarily
mean all.
Good job.

As far as 'all have sinned' not applying to
Jesus you're right because it's stated.

Hebrews 4:15
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.


As far as mary, not stated.
Jesus is the only exception and even
though all doesnt mean all.
It does say in the Bible that anyone
who says they are without sin is a liar.
I used to be catholic and 'all' were
born with original sin.
(that's what I was taught anyhow)

Mary wasn't God, Jesus is.
She's not in His league,
blessed though she is
and full of grace.
She's a human woman
who was greatly blessed.

1 John 1:8
8 If we say that we have no sin,
we deceive ourselves,
and the truth is not in us.

That means all of us 'mortals'
Mary included, you'd think.

sunlover

 

[ScottBot]

The list of bucking scripture is to immense to list.
And why do it, for you guys have the maxim that things don't need to be of scripture anyway.
And your wrong saying "pkb" the reformed way is the scriptural way.
The catholic way is the ways of man.

....in your opinion. My opinion is vice versa. So here we are....

 

[Hentenza]

There are several verses in the bible that contradict the belief that Mary did not have any children besides Jesus and therefore, remained a virgin.
Some of the verses are:
Mat 1:24-25 - "And Joseph arose from his sleep, and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took as his wife, and kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus."

Mat 12:46-47 "While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Yourbrothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You."


Mat 13:55- "Is not this the carpenters son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?"


Mark 6:2-3 - "And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, "Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands? "Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?"

John 2:12 - "After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother, and His brothers, and His disciples; and there they stayed a few days."


Acts 1-14- "These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers."


1 Cor 9:4-5 - "Do we not have a right to eat and drink? Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles, and the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?"


Gal 1:19- "But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lords brother."

The contention of the Catholic church is the greek word "adelphos" for brother or "adelphe" for sister can also be used to refer to "cousins". The problem with this argument is that the context of the passages will also change and not make sense. For example in Mat 13:55, carpenter is literaly understood as Joseph, and mother is literaly understood as Mary, so the use of "cousins" switches contextual meanings in the middle of a sentence.

In order to fully understand the use of the greek words in question, you have to also look at Psalm 69 which is clearly a messianic psalm. Jesus quotes Psalm 69:4 in John 15:25 and Psalm 69:9 in John 2:16-17. Psalm 69-4-9 reads:
"Those who hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of my head; Those who would destroy me are powerful, being wrongfully my enemies, What I did not steal, I then have to restore. 5O God, it is Thou who dost know my folly, And my wrongs are not hidden from Thee. 6May those who wait for Thee not be ashamed through me, O Lord God of hosts; May those who seek Thee not be dishonored through me, O God of Israel, 7Because for Thy sake I have borne reproach; Dishonor has covered my face. 8I have become estranged from my brothers, and an alien to my mothers sons. 9For zeal for Thy house has consumed me, And the reproaches of those who reproach Thee have fallen on me."

This messianic psalm clearly shows that Jesus had brothers. The answer is inescapable. Biblically Mary had other children which biblically invalidates the belief that Mary remained a virgin.

 

[DMagoh]

...So you see, when it says...."For all have sinned, and do need the glory of God."....it doesn't necessarily mean all as in every single person that lived or will live hence that verse cannot be used against the Immaculate Conception since it proves nothing. It is only your assuming that it includes the Blessed Mother Mary but that isn't enough.

Oh boy, here we go again.

In the Calvinist thread, they are saying that when God wasnt willing that any should perish, and that Jesus dies to take away the sins of the world, etc.... that any didnt reallt mean any, and whole world didnt really mean whole world...

In the homosexual thread, they reinterpret words in the Bible too. "Homosexual" doesnt REALLY mean that - it meant homosexual prostitutes, or it meant men who comitted homosexual acts in pagan worship.

I have really grown weary of reinterpretations, complicated explanations, and convoluted theories. Why dont we just read black ink on white paper?

There is NOTHING in the Bible written in black and white that shows that Mary was without sin - either original, willing, unintentional, deliberate...Anything you try to quote out of the Bible you will have to EXPLAIN why it means that Mary was without sin. When you have to start explaining things, maybe you need to take a second look. There is nothing in black ink on white paper.

 

[Kepha]

I used to be catholic and 'all' were born with original sin.
(that's what I was taught anyhow)

Yes, the Church teaches all are born with original sin but never included Mary in that.

Mary wasn't God, Jesus is.

She's not in His league, blessed though she is and full of grace. She's a human woman who was greatly blessed.

You do not have to be God to be born or created without original sin. Adam and Eve can attest to that along with all the Angels in Heaven.

1 John 1:8
8 If we say that we have no sin,
we deceive ourselves,
and the truth is not in us.

That means all of us 'mortals'
Mary included, you'd think.

Well one would think that if God personally tells you: "I will put enmity between you and the Woman, between your seed and Her Seed." then he really is trying to say something here.

Enmity is that mutual hatred between Mary and lord of sin......satan himself, and between Christ and sin, the seed of the devil. So it is Christ and Mary having this state of deep-seated ill-will towards the serpant and his seed and he likewise towards them.

Also that verse is preached to Catholics in Mass yet we have no problem with it since we know it doesn't include Mary and understand John was not trying to do that. You must realize that John was not writing to Mary but to a certain area where he was during that time. She knew Her place in God's plan. The Oral Word of God tells us She did not sin and can be backed up implicitly by the Written Word.

 

[ScottBot]

There are several verses in the bible that contradict the belief that Mary did not have any children besides Jesus and therefore, remained a virgin.
Some of the verses are:
Mat 1:24-25 - "And Joseph arose from his sleep, and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took as his wife, and kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus."

Mat 12:46-47 "While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Yourbrothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You."


Mat 13:55- "Is not this the carpenters son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?"


Mark 6:2-3 - "And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, "Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands? "Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?"

John 2:12 - "After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother, and His brothers, and His disciples; and there they stayed a few days."


Acts 1-14- "These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers."


1 Cor 9:4-5 - "Do we not have a right to eat and drink? Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles, and the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?"


Gal 1:19- "But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lords brother."

The contention of the Catholic church is the greek word "adelphos" for brother or "adelphe" for sister can also be used to refer to "cousins". The problem with this argument is that the context of the passages will also change and not make sense. For example in Mat 13:55, carpenter is literaly understood as Joseph, and mother is literaly understood as Mary, so the use of "cousins" switches contextual meanings in the middle of a sentence.

In order to fully understand the use of the greek words in question, you have to also look at Psalm 69 which is clearly a messianic psalm. Jesus quotes Psalm 69:4 in John 15:25 and Psalm 69:9 in John 2:16-17. Psalm 69-4-9 reads:
"Those who hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of my head; Those who would destroy me are powerful, being wrongfully my enemies, What I did not steal, I then have to restore. 5O God, it is Thou who dost know my folly, And my wrongs are not hidden from Thee. 6May those who wait for Thee not be ashamed through me, O Lord God of hosts; May those who seek Thee not be dishonored through me, O God of Israel, 7Because for Thy sake I have borne reproach; Dishonor has covered my face. 8I have become estranged from my brothers, and an alien to my mothers sons. 9For zeal for Thy house has consumed me, And the reproaches of those who reproach Thee have fallen on me."

This messianic psalm clearly shows that Jesus had brothers. The answer is inescapable. Biblically Mary had other children which biblically invalidates the belief that Mary remained a virgin.

I was hoping for something new and original.

 

[IamAdopted]

Yes, the Church teaches all are born with original sin but never included Mary in that.



You do not have to be God to be born or created without original sin. Adam and Eve can attest to that along with all the Angels in Heaven.



Well one would think that if God personally tells you: "I will put enmity between you and the Woman, between your seed and Her Seed." then he really is trying to say something here.

Enmity is that mutual hatred between Mary and lord of sin......satan himself, and between Christ and sin, the seed of the devil. So it is Christ and Mary having this state of deep-seated ill-will towards the serpant and his seed and he likewise towards them.

Also that verse is preached to Catholics in Mass yet we have no problem with it since we know it doesn't include Mary and understand John was not trying to do that. You must realize that John was not writing to Mary but to a certain area where he was during that time. She knew Her place in God's plan. The Oral Word of God tells us She did not sin and can be backed up implicitly by the Written Word.

Adam and Eve were not born. They were created out of the dust of the earth. After sin entered all have been a sin to slave since. Jesus is the only exception as scripture states. Mary being fully a woman born solely from the seed of man and woman was born a slave to sin just as everyone else that was born since Adam and Eve sinned.