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Immaculate Conception - Why Did It Take 1,854 Years to Discover This Doctrine?

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PassthePeace1

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Yea I don't know what's going on, I have been having computer issues myself..the database error thing. It's probably the site.

But yes, I do think it boils down to our different views of original sin. Our original sin is death (earthly) and your's is the sin itself. So we can't believe Mary was IC'd. because she did die. Also we think she was born just like everyone else, that is what makes her so special. What in your opinion is more special to look up to as a role model so to speak, (as we are to look up at Mary's example of Christian obedience and her life of purity)...someone who did not sin because she couldn't because she was born without the flaw all men are..or someone who CHOSE not to sin, allthough she could?

I didn't think my second post went thru, because I got a data base error, like the first....so when I was about to log back on...I used my tool bar icon, which takes me to OBOB. I noticed you had a thread in there on the Immaculate Conception.

So I came back in here, to tell you I was going to comment on your thread in OBOB...and noticed my post went thru after all..^_^

But as to your question, I can't really answer it as written...because we don't believe that she was incapable of sin,.....Immaculate Conception deals with her being preserved from the stain of Original Sin...it doesn't mean she wasn't incapable of sin, because she had free-will....just like Adam and Eve had freewill. She just chose obedience, where as Eve chose to disobedience.

So for me she is the perfect example of a Christian role model, because she always chose to live in God's will.

Peace be with you...Pam
 
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repentant

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I didn't think my second post went thru, because I got a data base error, like the first....so when I was about to log back on...I used my tool bar icon, which takes me to OBOB. I noticed you had a thread in there on the Immaculate Conception.

So I came back in here, to tell you I was going to comment on your thread in OBOB...and noticed my post went thru after all..^_^

But as to your question, I can't really answer it as written...because we don't believe that she was incapable of sin,.....Immaculate Conception deals with her being preserved from the stain of Original Sin...it doesn't mean she wasn't incapable of sin, because she had free-will....just like Adam and Eve had freewill. She just chose obedience, where as Eve chose to disobedience.

So for me she is the perfect example of a Christian role model, because she always chose to live in God's will.

Peace be with you...Pam

But wouldn't you say, that based on the RCC view of OS, that to not be born with it, would in turn mean not to be born with the consequences, and the disposition to sin?
 
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HisKid1973

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Pass, here is a tip for long posts..I don't do much long posts, but when I do I always highlight it and chose "copy"..This way if it is lost in cyberspace I can paste it back in when the forum resets..A nice thing with using firefox browser is if the computer glitches ,When you restart and bring firefox up it will ask if you want your previous session...be blessed.Kim
 
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PassthePeace1

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But wouldn't you say, that based on the RCC view of OS, that to not be born with it, would in turn mean not to be born with the consequences, and the disposition to sin?

No because she, just like Adam and Eve...had free will.

I don't know if this will help or not, but here is one of the things the CCC states about original sin. See 404
The consequences of Adam's sin for humanity
402 All men are implicated in Adam's sin, as St. Paul affirms: "By one man's disobedience many (that is, all men) were made sinners": "sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned."289 The Apostle contrasts the universality of sin and death with the universality of salvation in Christ. "Then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men."290


403 Following St. Paul, the Church has always taught that the overwhelming misery which oppresses men and their inclination towards evil and death cannot be understood apart from their connection with Adam's sin and the fact that he has transmitted to us a sin with which we are all born afflicted, a sin which is the "death of the soul".291 Because of this certainty of faith, the Church baptizes for the remission of sins even tiny infants who have not committed personal sin.292


404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam "as one body of one man".293 By this "unity of the human race" all men are implicated in Adam's sin, as all are implicated in Christ's justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.294 It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called "sin" only in an analogical sense: it is a sin "contracted" and not "committed" - a state and not an act.


405 Although it is proper to each individual,295 original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.


406 The Church's teaching on the transmission of original sin was articulated more precisely in the fifth century, especially under the impulse of St. Augustine's reflections against Pelagianism, and in the sixteenth century, in opposition to the Protestant Reformation. Pelagius held that man could, by the natural power of free will and without the necessary help of God's grace, lead a morally good life; he thus reduced the influence of Adam's fault to bad example. The first Protestant reformers, on the contrary, taught that original sin has radically perverted man and destroyed his freedom; they identified the sin inherited by each man with the tendency to evil (concupiscentia), which would be insurmountable. The Church pronounced on the meaning of the data of Revelation on original sin especially at the second Council of Orange (529)296 and at the Council of Trent (1546).297
A hard battle. . .


407 The doctrine of original sin, closely connected with that of redemption by Christ, provides lucid discernment of man's situation and activity in the world. By our first parents' sin, the devil has acquired a certain domination over man, even though man remains free. Original sin entails "captivity under the power of him who thenceforth had the power of death, that is, the devil".298 Ignorance of the fact that man has a wounded nature inclined to evil gives rise to serious errors in the areas of education, politics, social action299 and morals.

408 The consequences of original sin and of all men's personal sins put the world as a whole in the sinful condition aptly described in St. John's expression, "the sin of the world".300 This expression can also refer to the negative influence exerted on people by communal situations and social structures that are the fruit of men's sins.301

409 This dramatic situation of "the whole world [which] is in the power of the evil one"302 makes man's life a battle:
The whole of man's history has been the story of dour combat with the powers of evil, stretching, so our Lord tells us, from the very dawn of history until the last day. Finding himself in the midst of the battlefield man has to struggle to do what is right, and it is at great cost to himself, and aided by God's grace, that he succeeds in achieving his own inner integrity.303






Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 1 ARTICLE 1 PARAGRAPH 7
 
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PassthePeace1

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Pass, here is a tip for long posts..I don't do much long posts, but when I do I always highlight it and chose "copy"..This way if it is lost in cyberspace I can paste it back in when the forum resets..A nice thing with using firefox browser is if the computer glitches ,When you restart and bring firefox up it will ask if you want your previous session...be blessed.Kim

Thanks Kim...:hug:
 
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repentant

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No because she, just like Adam and Eve...had free will.

I don't know if this will help or not, but here is one of the things the CCC states about original sin. See 404






Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 1 ARTICLE 1 PARAGRAPH 7

True..

Yea that is similar to what was posted on OBOB. It's the loss (or potential) of holiness. And then it was stated that at Baptism this is returned to us, and Mary recieved it in the womb. So then I asked, then how were people in the OT Holy, without Baptism? Haven't seen a reply yet, so I will ask you that here..
 
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PassthePeace1

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True..

Yea that is similar to what was posted on OBOB. It's the loss (or potential) of holiness. And then it was stated that at Baptism this is returned to us, and Mary recieved it in the womb. So then I asked, then how were people in the OT Holy, without Baptism? Haven't seen a reply yet, so I will ask you that here..



I have to be honest, I have never really given much thought on how grace was applied to the OT's Holy people, so good question. However, the merits of Christ's redemptive work on the Cross, can move forward and backwards....because there is no time in eternity. Past, present and future is in the "eternal now". This really doesn't give me a problem, because I too am on the receiving end....the historic(for the lack of a better term) event that happened two thousand years ago, is made real for me...when I participate with all of Heaven, in the Liturgy at Mass, and His sacrifice is made present to me, when I receive Our Lord in the Eucharist.

I am sure n-tv and AVO can explain it a 1000X better than I can...so hopefully tomorrow you will get an explanation...on OBOB.

Peace be with you...Pam
 
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WarriorAngel

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Just out of curiousity, if Mary "was preserved immaculate from all stain of original sin" (Immaculate Conception), why did it take 1,854 years after the birth of Jesus before anyone realized this? How come the Catholic church did not recognize this fact until 1854 AD? It wasnt until Pope Pius IX uttered those words on December 8, 1854, that this doctrine was issued. :scratch:

To fight a heresy...it was already known.
This occurred many times in history.
The Hypostatic Union of Christ, the Trinity...etc all were defined when heretics tried to convey otherwise of that which was taught through out the ages, and protected by the Holy Spirit.


How does being addressed this way mean you were born without original sin? How come there is nothing in the scripture that actually says it? I mean, you would think if she were the only exception to the rule (besides God himself as Jesus), it would be specifically mentioned.

It is the way they talked....
I would venture in the year 4000 AD they won't understand us now, either.

Asking the question of the OP is similar to asking why the Divinity of Christ wasn't discovered for 325 years.

The formal, definitive, and precise declaration and explanation of a dogma is not when it was discovered, but it is in response to a controversy or dispute caused by those who deny a traditional doctrine revealed by God.

Christology was developed in a similar way over the first seven centuries or so of the Church.
:thumbsup:
If you will look at those extra books you talk about. They contradict scripture they also have historical error in them. So therefore they cannot be inspired by God. Even the councel agree's they are not the inspired word of God..

Really?
Well since you are taking this on hearsay and never read them, please tell me why Christ celebrated Hannukah...
And why the Jews do today?
It is ONLY in Machabees.....the book you have not read.
AND the prophecy of Christ in Wisdom is succint, defining Him in perfect order...
It does NOT contradict anything....you won't find a better prophecy. IF that is NOT inspired...then I dont know what is.

In fact, nothing about those books are contradictory...I have read them.

Are you saying Christ celebrated a festival that was not inspired??
The council never said that they were not inspired...only Luther said that.

St Jerome [a single Church father who was argued against and he conceeded to the Church] got the idea from the Jews...the Church never said that.

So why was Jesus baptized? Did He have original sin he needed to get rid of?

He instituted the sacrament.
It was by His act that it became sanctified for salvation.
WE know we receive the Spirit, because witnesses saw the Spirit descend upon Christ...
Although this was for witness to foreshadow the sacrament.

When did the EOC defend the IC? Please don't make stuff up. And the reason why maybe SOME Orthodox Christians may believe or think we believe in the IC, is because they are missinformed, and have been influenced by Rome...The 1895 patriarchal encyclical condemned the IC as something new, unknown to the early Church..

XIII. The one holy, catholic and apostolic Church of the seven Ecumenical Councils teaches that the supernatural incarnation of the only-begotten Son and Word of God, of the Holy Ghost and the Virgin Mary, is alone pure and immaculate; but the Papal Church scarcely forty years ago again made an innovation by laying down a novel dogma concerning the immaculate conception of the Mother of God and ever-Virgin Mary, which was unknown to the ancient Church (and strongly opposed at different times even by the more distinguished among the papal theologians).

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/encyc_1895.aspx


But anyways, couldn't you answer the question on if Stephen was immac. conceived as well..?

I believe I went through this before.
Stephen was filled with Grace...whereas Mary was full of grace, even before she said YES...

I wil look into it more, because I know there are in fact tid bits about Mary prior to the 1800's.
 
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Benedicta00

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True..

Yea that is similar to what was posted on OBOB. It's the loss (or potential) of holiness. And then it was stated that at Baptism this is returned to us, and Mary recieved it in the womb. So then I asked, then how were people in the OT Holy, without Baptism? Haven't seen a reply yet, so I will ask you that here..


How were they found to be righteous with out baptism? Because God predestined them in anticipation of Christ's actual event and he applied to them Chrits' merits the same way he applied them to Mary, in advance.

He gave these ppl actual grace and he gave them the gift of faith and they of course obeyed him and like God told Abraham he was found righteous because of his faith.

The only thing they lacked was Christ's actual event opening heaven. They didn't lacked in anything else but that.

God made the sacraments and baptism as the gate in which we all are to enter but he is not bound to this, he can and did work outside of this because He himself is outside of time ad space.

We even have were he made exceptions and possibly assumed Moses and Elijah before Christ's actual event and if it was done, it was done in anticipation of Christ.

This is what Protestants can not understand, we do not limited God in any way. He's God, he can work in any way he wants. He is certainly not bound by time. Christ's sacrifice transcends time and space.

What is important is we know everything he does to save us or anyone is based on Christ's merits, and he could have sanctified anyone in anticipation of Christ's merits just as he can sanctify anyone outside of the sacraments and His Church.

All we know is this, Jesus Christ is the savior of the world. If anyone was/is /will be saved it is because of what he did on the cross whether it was in anticipation of the event or after the actual event.
 
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ScottBot

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Can you show me where in scripture the bible says that Mary was full of Grace? I see in my scriptures that she was highly favored.. Not full of grace.
You're bible is translated incorrectly.

the Greek says Kecharitomene, the perfect participle of "to fill with grace".
 
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IamAdopted

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You're bible is translated incorrectly.

the Greek says Kecharitomene, the perfect participle of "to fill with grace".
The greek word used is Xalptow (Charitoo)

1) to make graceful
a) charming, lovely, agreeable
2) to peruse with grace, compass with favour 3) to honour with blessings
 
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IamAdopted

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we also see from Paul in Galatians 4:4
2He is subject to guardians and trustees until the time set by his father. 3So also, when we were children, we were in slavery under the basic principles of the world. 4But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, 5to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons.
Mary was born under the Law. Jesus came to redeem those under the law. This includes Mary for scripture tells us she was born under the law. The OT and the NT. Grace. :)
 
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Kepha

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we also see from Paul in Galatians 4:4 Mary was born under the Law. Jesus came to redeem those under the law. This includes Mary for scripture tells us she was born under the law. The OT and the NT. Grace. :)

You misunderstood that verse IamAdopted. It's actually emphasizing that Jesus was born under the law.

We are reminded again of this when, in Luke 2:22-24, Mary and Joseph present Jesus in the Temple and ransom Him for a pair of turtle doves as prescribed by Jewish law.
 
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IamAdopted

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You misunderstood that verse IamAdopted. It's actually emphasizing that Jesus was born under the law.

We are reminded again of this when, in Luke 2:22-24, Mary and Joseph present Jesus in the Temple and ransom Him for a pair of turtle doves as prescribed by Jewish law.
Jesus had to redeem Himself? Him the redeemer? How do you figure this?
 
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Petunia

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You misunderstood that verse IamAdopted. It's actually emphasizing that Jesus was born under the law.

What difference does that make? If Jesus was born under the law, then so was Mary. :)
 
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Petunia

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we also see from Paul in Galatians 4:4 Mary was born under the Law. Jesus came to redeem those under the law. This includes Mary for scripture tells us she was born under the law. The OT and the NT. Grace. :)
Amen. :)
 
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repentant

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The greek word used is Xalptow (Charitoo)

1) to make graceful
a) charming, lovely, agreeable
2) to peruse with grace, compass with favour 3) to honour with blessings

IAA, I thought we settled this..? Amor is right, the correct word used in Greek describing Mary is kecharitomene "one who in which grace lives", it does not have the word harito, which just means grace..
 
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Kepha

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Jesus had to redeem Himself? Him the redeemer? How do you figure this?

All I'm saying is your verse you gave is not talking about Mary but Jesus. It's a little more complex I feel in understanding what exactly it means but It isn't saying Mary is under the law. I'm not sure many protestant preachers even teach that it means it the way you said it does. Maybe try to find the Greek or Latin of that verse to get a better understanding of it's context.

But even in English it's noticeable that the flow of the verse is not talking about Mary.
 
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Rick Otto

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for understanding Catholicism, in my opinion.
BTW, did anybody answer the question in the OP?
I just got back from a 2wk 'vacation'. Haven't scanned every page yet...

Luke 1:28 et ingressus angelus ad eam dixit have gratia plena Dominus tecum benedicta tu in mulieribus

Didn't Origen of Alexandria produce this translation?

The Law was conviction of sin. Jesus was born into it's jurisdiction but was the only creature with flesh ever to be born free of transgression. In this way He was perfectly suited to be the perfect sacrifice, scapegoat if you will, to end all sacrifices. "It is finished."
He didn't need redemption. He brought it with Him.

Sometimes less is more. More poignant... so "just grace" can be more moving than "grace +". Not that this is the case here, but the meaning of a word AND its modifiers are BOTH in context, both narrower & wider & it is dangerous to make quick equations without considering both.
Mary was under both the law of sin & Mosaic (OT)Law.

Gal4:4 But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5: To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

>>I think this is a general reference. It establishes Jesus as a citizen of Isreal, a son of Abraham subject to cerimonial & ritual law.
 
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Kepha

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FULL OF GRACE

I have heard this before but I found this to be a very good explaination in the Ignatius Catholic Study Bible by Scott Hahn who is a highly respected apologist:

1:28 Hail: Or "Rejoice!" It crowns the theme of joy and gladness that punctuates Luke's Infancy Narrative (1:14, 44, 47, 58; 2:10, 20). * The call to rejoice echoes OT passages that address Daughter Zion. In the prohpets this refers to Mother Jerusalem, whose faithful children will rejoice in the messianic age because God has chosen to dwell in their midst (Joel 2:23-24; Zeph 3:14-17; Zech 9:9). Mary, chosen to be the virgin mother of the Messiah, is greeted with the same summons because she is the embodiment of faithful Israel and the most privileged recipient of Yahweh's messianic blessings. full of grace: This is the only biblical instance where an angel addresses someone by a title instead of a personal name. Two considerations help to clarify its meaning. (1) The expression full of grace is rooted in Catholic tradition and traced to St. Jerome's translation of this verse in the Latin Vulgate. Although fundamentally accurate, it lacks some of the depth of the Greek original. Luke could have described her with the words full of grace (Gk. pleres charitos) as he did of Stephen in Acts 6:8, yet here he uses a different expression (Gk. kecharitomene) that is even more revealing than the traditional rendering. It indicates that God has already "graced" Mary previous to this point, making her a vessel who "has been" and "is now" filled with divine life. (2) Alternative translations like "favored one" or "highly favored" are possible but inadequate. Because of the unparalleled role that Mary accepts at this turning point in salvation history, the best translation is the most exalted one. For God endowed Mary with an abundance of grace to prepare her for the vocation of divine motherhood and to make her a sterling example of Christian holiness (CCC 490-93, 722). * Gabriel's declaration points in the direction of Mary's Immaculate Conception. According to Pope Pius IX's 1854 definition Ineffablils Deus, Luke's Annunciation narrative is an important indicator of Mary's lifelong holiness. God is her "Savior" (1:47) in the most perfect way possible: he sanctified Mary in the first instance of her conception and preserved her entirely from sin and even from the inclination toward sin that we experience.
 
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