Immaculate Conception - Why Did It Take 1,854 Years to Discover This Doctrine?

[Petunia]

All I'm saying is your verse you gave is not talking about Mary but Jesus. It's a little more complex I feel in understanding what exactly it means but It isn't saying Mary is under the law. I'm not sure many protestant preachers even teach that it means it the way you said it does. Maybe try to find the Greek or Latin of that verse to get a better understanding of it's context.

But even in English it's noticeable that the flow of the verse is not talking about Mary.

I think you may have missed her point. I don't think she's saying the passage is about Mary per se. But that the passage says that Jesus came 'to redeem those under the law'. And since Mary was born under the law, the Lord came to redeem her too.

 

[ScottBot]

I think you may have missed her point. I don't think she's saying the passage is about Mary per se. But that the passage says that Jesus came 'to redeem those under the law'. And since Mary was born under the law, the Lord came to redeem her too.

Mary recognizes that in her Magnificat.

 

[Petunia]

Mary recognizes that in her Magnificat.

What is the significance of 'full of grace' in regards to Mary? I mean.. what does it mean to the Catholics?

Edit to add: Nevermind. I think I found my answer in the 2nd post in this thread.

 

[Kepha]

I think you may have missed her point. I don't think she's saying the passage is about Mary per se. But that the passage says that Jesus came 'to redeem those under the law'. And since Mary was born under the law, the Lord came to redeem her too.

I understood what she was trying to say. But my focus was on that verse and that it was wrong to say it was talking about Mary there that's all.

Mary needed Christ just like everybody else. I never once disputed that fact if that is what your saying. That still doesn't hurt the Church's Dogmatic stance on Her being Immaculately Conceived if one understands how we believed it was possible since She needed a Saviour like you and me. Without Her Son's Sacrifice, She indeed would have had that stain of original sin on Her very soul.

 

[Kepha]

What is the significance of 'full of grace' in regards to Mary? I mean.. what does it mean to the Catholics?

Edit to add: Nevermind. I think I found my answer in the 2nd post in this thread.

The thing is, we don't come by passages in the Bible then invent new Doctrine out of it. We try to point to things, even if not so explicit, to back up our already established Dogma's.

 

[IamAdopted]

well scripture does not say Mary was full of Grace according to the oginal Greek. She was highly favored. For Grace comes through Jesus and He was not born yet when Mary was Born. Mary was also born under the law. A prisoner of sin. Jesus was the only born with out sin for He Himself was God. There is no sin in God. Even John the Baptist was filled with the Spirit as Jesus in the womb filled Him. Amazing but true. We can see this account that when Mary went to see Elizabeth. Jesus was born under the law because He was born from a Jewish woman. Then He became the only to fulfill the Law. This is why Jesus knew no sin. He lived out the Law. Him being God the only one to do so. All others were born in sin.

 

[ScottBot]

well scripture does not say Mary was full of Grace according to the oginal Greek. She was highly favored. For Grace comes through Jesus and He was not born yet when Mary was Born. Mary was also born under the law. A prisoner of sin. Jesus was the only born with out sin for He Himself was God. There is no sin in God. Even John the Baptist was filled with the Spirit as Jesus in the womb filled Him. Amazing but true. We can see this account that when Mary went to see Elizabeth. Jesus was born under the law because He was born from a Jewish woman. Then He became the only to fulfill the Law. This is why Jesus knew no sin. He lived out the Law. Him being God the only one to do so. All others were born in sin.

No, in the original greek it says she is full of grace. "highly favored daughter" is a modern translation that bears no resemblance to the original.

 

[FullyMT]

well scripture does not say Mary was full of Grace according to the oginal Greek. She was highly favored. For Grace comes through Jesus and He was not born yet when Mary was Born. Mary was also born under the law. A prisoner of sin. Jesus was the only born with out sin for He Himself was God. There is no sin in God. Even John the Baptist was filled with the Spirit as Jesus in the womb filled Him. Amazing but true. We can see this account that when Mary went to see Elizabeth. Jesus was born under the law because He was born from a Jewish woman. Then He became the only to fulfill the Law. This is why Jesus knew no sin. He lived out the Law. Him being God the only one to do so. All others were born in sin.

How can you say Grace can only come from God and that grace could only come after Jesus was born? I'd really like to see that information.
Jesus' existence has been eternal. He is the Word, a member of the Trinity. Jesus is God.
Jesus fulfilled the Law through His incarnation, death, and resurrection. He, as the Word, is the fulfillment of the Law because He IS the Law.
But to say grace did not exist before the incarnation of the Word denies God's ability to work throughout all of time. To deny the existence of grace before the incarnation is to say that the Old Testament is not inspired, and that all of the law of the Old Testament, which would include the working of Abraham, Joseph, Moses, Aaron, and all the prophets, were not rooted in God's will and love.
Because the grace of God, the grace of redemption is now able to be offered through all of history, this is why we can say Mary was preserved from the stain of Original Sin prior to the Incarnation. Because God deigned it to be so.

 

[IamAdopted]

16From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. 17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

Jesus fulfilled the law by living the Law. For He walked among us and was tempted just as we are but was without sin. He was the only one without sin. The only one. This is why He could lay His life down for us as a spotless lamb. The lamb of God. For He was without sin. Inspired and grace are two different things. Gods Mercy endures forever.

 

[ScottBot]

Jesus fulfilled the law by living the Law. For He walked among us and was tempted just as we are but was without sin. He was the only one without sin. The only one. This is why He could lay His life down for us as a spotless lamb. The lamb of God. For He was without sin. Inspired and grace are two different things. Gods Mercy endures forever.

Great, why dont' you tell us the difference between inspiration and grace.

 

[FullyMT]

Jesus fulfilled the law by living the Law. For He walked among us and was tempted just as we are but was without sin. He was the only one without sin. The only one. This is why He could lay His life down for us as a spotless lamb. The lamb of God. For He was without sin. Inspired and grace are two different things. Gods Mercy endures forever.

 

[IamAdopted]

The whole world was born prisoner to sin. This is scripture. We were all prisoners of the Law until faith was revealed. It is through Christ that this faith is revealed and putting our Faith in Him is where we are not under the Law.

 

[FullyMT]

The whole world was born prisoner to sin. This is scripture. We were all prisoners of the Law until faith was revealed. It is through Christ that this faith is revealed and putting our Faith in Him is where we are not under the Law.

You aren't relating any of this what I posted in response to something you have said. So as far as I am concerned you are not interested in creating a dialogue and am now going to leave this thread.

 

[Petunia]

The thing is, we don't come by passages in the Bible then invent new Doctrine out of it. We try to point to things, even if not so explicit, to back up our already established Dogma's.

I see.
Thank you for explaining, Kepha.

 

[IamAdopted]

How can you say Grace can only come from God and that grace could only come after Jesus was born?

Well where do you say Grace comes from if not from God? I gave scripture about where grace came from.

Jesus fulfilled the Law through His incarnation, death, and resurrection. He, as the Word, is the fulfillment of the Law because He IS the Law.

The bible tells us that Jesus was tempted in every way we are but He was without sin. Yes Jesus is Eternal. He became man to become the Lamb of God who taketh away the sins of the world.

To deny the existence of grace before the incarnation is to say that the Old Testament is not inspired, and that all of the law of the Old Testament, which would include the working of Abraham, Joseph, Moses, Aaron, and all the prophets, were not rooted in God's will and love.

They were obedient to God. Abraham was whom the Promise came to. Moses was not allowed to go into the promise land because of one act of disobedience.

Because the grace of God, the grace of redemption is now able to be offered through all of history, this is why we can say Mary was preserved from the stain of Original Sin prior to the Incarnation. Because God deigned it to be so.

You can say this but scripture tells us a different story. Scripture tells us that all the world was prisoner of sin Until Christ came and died and rose from the dead. For even the Apostles had to wait in the upper room for the Promise of the Holy Spirit. For Jesus had to leave the earth for the Promise of the Holy Spirit to come. Jesus being who He was and is and is to come verifies this just by the life He lived.

 

[Petunia]

Mary needed Christ just like everybody else. I never once disputed that fact if that is what your saying. That still doesn't hurt the Church's Dogmatic stance on Her being Immaculately Conceived if one understands how we believed it was possible since She needed a Saviour like you and me. Without Her Son's Sacrifice, She indeed would have had that stain of original sin on Her very soul.

Are saying that you see Mary without the stain of original sin.. because Jesus was her saviour and redeemer?

Edit to add: And if so, how does that make her any different than the rest of us.. in your view?

 

[IamAdopted]

Inspiration
a.a divine influence directly and immediately exerted upon the mind or soul. b.the divine quality of the writings or words of a person so influenced.
Grace
a.the freely given, unmerited favor and love of God. b.the influence or spirit of God operating in humans to regenerate or strengthen them.

 

[ScottBot]

Inspiration
a.a divine influence directly and immediately exerted upon the mind or soul. b.the divine quality of the writings or words of a person so influenced.
Grace
a.the freely given, unmerited favor and love of God. b.the influence or spirit of God operating in humans to regenerate or strengthen them.

So, how does the a. definition of inspiration differ from the b. definition of grace.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Are saying that you see Mary without the stain of original sin.. because Jesus was her saviour and redeemer?

Edit to add: And if so, how does that make her any different than the rest of us.. in your view?

She was 'pre' saved due to the role of being 'preordained' as both the Mother of GOD and as such the Ark 'of' the covenant.

And she was the new Eve.

God, in His infinite and unsurpassed ability had already deemed her saved by giving her an unstained being.

Can God do this?
Is He incapable?

 

[Petunia]

Thank you, WarriorAngel.

Can God do this?
Is He incapable?

I think the question should be "Did He do that?" I'll look back through the thread. Still haven't read all of it. I'm curious to know what the Catholics use for Scriptural support of that theory.