Immaculate conception of Mary?

[concretecamper]

 

[Arsenios]

Boy, you got that right...

Sound asleep...

Great confession!

When the Offense is asleep...

The Defense Rests!

Arsenios (In the Defense of Orthodoxy!)

 

[patricius79]

Until the Church defines it, I'll continue to believe she died first and then was assumed into Heaven. Althoug Christ would have granted anything to His Mother, I believe that she would have chosen death as to follow in the footsteps of her Son and Savior.

That's what I believe, and I think that John Paul II, Christ's Vicar, said that.

 

[prodromos]

That's what I believe, and I think that John Paul II, Christ's Vicar, said that.

Did he say it 'ex cathedra'?

 

[Arsenios]

That's what I believe, and I think that John Paul II ... said that [She would have chosen death (so) as to follow in the footsteps of her Son and Savior..]

I think and believe that you believe and think that he said that She would...

The problem is theological, and this none of the Latin faithful so far seems inclined to address.

IF death were merely something for Her to CHOOSE, then She did NOT have the human nature that you and I and all the rest of humanity have, and neither therefore did Christ Who received His human nature FROM her... Christ healed the fallen human nature He received from Her... He did not heal what He did NOT receive from Her... Therefore Her death was not optional... His, of course, was...

Back when I was an atheist in the army some 50 years ago, I had a Christian friend and we would argue Christianity... And when he would find himself losing, which was every time, he would start naming the books of the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and then, if that was not enough, from Revelation to Genesis, and then continue to do so, front to back, back to front, repeating himself until the discussion went away...

He was a Black Man Baptist Preacher from Aniston, Alabama...

A man of great faith...

Died of cancer...

Name of Isaac...

Jes' sayin'...

fwiw,
I, as a man, would fall in his shadow...

Arsenios

 

[patricius79]

I think and believe that you believe and think that he said that She would...

The problem is theological, and this none of the Latin faithful so far seems inclined to address.

IF death were merely something for Her to CHOOSE, then She did NOT have the human nature that you and I and all the rest of humanity have, and neither therefore did Christ Who received His human nature FROM her... Christ healed the fallen human nature He received from Her... He did not heal what He did NOT receive from Her... Therefore Her death was not optional... His, of course, was...

I believe that the Immaculata did die, and accept whatever the Catholic Church teaches. I think both the New Eve and the New Adam--both being unstained by original and actual sin--are special cases. I believe that Mary died out of compassion and sorrow over the death of her son during her whole life. Our spiritual Mother suffered so much that it required a sort of permanent miracle to keep her alive.

 

[Arsenios]

I believe that the Immaculata did die, and accept whatever the Catholic Church teaches. I think both the New Eve and the New Adam--both being unstained by original and actual sin--are special cases. I believe that Mary died out of compassion and sorrow over the death of her son during her whole life. Our spiritual Mother suffered so much that it required a sort of permanent miracle to keep her alive.

God bless you, my Friend... The questions we are raising here concern exactly what this whatever of the Latin Church might be which you accept without question. I mean, I can get boxed into a corner too, and when I do, like you have here, I simply say: "I accept whatever the Church teaching on this matter is, and I probably do not understand it very well, and will doubtless have a lot of questions when I encounter it, so as to incorporate it into my being faithfully and well...

In this matter, the Doctrine of the Immaculate Conception:
Is it a Dogmatic Doctrine of the Latin Church?
Does it mean that from Her conception she was exempted by some special Grace of God
from some feature of Original Sin which the rest of us poor slobs are in no way exempted from?
Did Christ take His humanity exclusively from Her?
Did Christ only heal what He received from Her?

Arsenios

 

[patricius79]

God bless you, my Friend... The questions we are raising here concern exactly what this whatever of the Latin Church might be which you accept without question. I mean, I can get boxed into a corner too, and when I do, like you have here, I simply say: "I accept whatever the Church teaching on this matter is, and I probably do not understand it very well, and will doubtless have a lot of questions when I encounter it, so as to incorporate it into my being faithfully and well...

In this matter, the Doctrine of the Immaculate Conception:
Is it a Dogmatic Doctrine of the Latin Church?
Does it mean that from Her conception she was exempted by some special Grace of God
from some feature of Original Sin

I know the Catholic Church teaches that the New Eve was preserved from all stain of Original Sin.

I don't know the status of the teaching about Mary's death.

My understanding is that the Orthodox do not have a consensus on whether Mary ever sinned, but that the Orthodox believe that a mystery of "Death" was passed on through Original Sin to all men. And that this death leads all men to sin. Would you explain what this "Death" is?

Back to the issue of death: it appears that Catholics are obliged to assent that Mary died, as that sems to be what the Encyclical of Pius 12th on the Assumption teaches.

For example:

35. In like manner St. Francis of Sales, after asserting that it is wrong to doubt that Jesus Christ has himself observed, in the most perfect way, the divine commandment by which children are ordered to honor their parents, asks this question: "What son would not bring his mother back to life and would not bring her into paradise after her death if he could?"[38] And St. Alphonsus writes that "Jesus did not wish to have the body of Mary corrupted after death, since it would have redounded to his own dishonor to have her virginal flesh, from which he himself had assumed flesh, reduced to dust."[39]
...

40. Hence the revered Mother of God, from all eternity joined in a hidden way with Jesus Christ in one and the same decree of predestination,[47] immaculate in her conception, a most perfect virgin in her divine motherhood, the noble associate of the divine Redeemer who has won a complete triumph over sin and its consequences, finally obtained, as the supreme culmination of her privileges, that she should be preserved free from the corruption of the tomb and that, like her own Son, having overcome death, she might be taken up body and soul to the glory of heaven where, as Queen, she sits in splendor at the right hand of her Son, the immortal King of the Ages.[48]
http://www.ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/p12munif.htm

 

[patricius79]

Did he say it 'ex cathedra'?

No, I don't think so. But my understanding is that it is Papal teaching that Mary died physically, and that this teaching thus requires the agreement of Catholics. I don't know a lot of Church doctrine like Justinangel does though. I know a few things and try to be faithful to Christ's Catholic Church. But I'll never be a theologian. What's important to me is having a relationship with my Immaculate Mother and trying to serve Christ through her, the Mediatrix of All Graces. I know that she is the Queen of Martyrs and suffered more than all the rest of the saints together, because she loved more than all of them together. Her whole life was a protracted death, as St. Alphonsus says. I don't think that the Orthodox have it all together anymore than Catholics do. I find that they, also, struggle with the mystery of the faith. For example, one of the most learned Orthodox I've met, Cavaradossi, told me--in the context of the Filioque discussion-- that the Orthodox don't have a consensus on what "from the Father through the Son" means. And I've seen other things too where the Orthodox don't have a definite position. Some seem to believe that Mary sinned. Others seem to believe she did not. Some believe that Christ has a human nature inclined toward sin. Others do not. Catholics likewise only know so much and are often confused about theological issues. We're all just trying to muddle our way through and it's prideful to think that we have it all together or that we understand all mysteries and all knowledge. But fortunately we all have the same Immaculate Mother to help us.

 

[Arsenios]

I know the Catholic Church teaches that the New Eve was preserved from all stain of Original Sin.

Death is THE FUNDAMENTAL stain of the sin of Adam...

It is UPON DEATH that all have sinned.

My understanding is that the Orthodox do not have a consensus on whether Mary ever sinned,

THAT teaching has never been dogmatically formulated...

but that the Orthodox believe that a mystery of "Death" was passed on through Original Sin to all men.

No mystery about it - God told Adam that the very DAY that he ate of the forbidden fruit, he would die, and he ate and he died that day, so that we who are born in Adam are partakers of his death, and indeed we do not come alive in this life except by the action of the Holy Spirit in us in the Body of Christ...

And that this death leads all men to sin. Would you explain what this "Death" is?

It is the corruption of the person unto separation of body from soul...

Back to the issue of death: it appears that Catholics are obliged to assent that Mary died, as that seems to be what the Encyclical of Pius 12th on the Assumption teaches.

Other Popes have, I believe, taught differently...

For example:

35. In like manner St. Francis of Sales, after asserting that it is wrong to doubt that Jesus Christ has himself observed, in the most perfect way, the divine commandment by which children are ordered to honor their parents, asks this question: "What son would not bring his mother back to life and would not bring her into paradise after her death if he could?"[38] And St. Alphonsus writes that "Jesus did not wish to have the body of Mary corrupted after death, since it would have redounded to his own dishonor to have her virginal flesh, from which he himself had assumed flesh, reduced to dust."[39]
...

40. Hence the revered Mother of God, from all eternity joined in a hidden way with Jesus Christ in one and the same decree of predestination,[47] immaculate in her conception, a most perfect virgin in her divine motherhood, the noble associate of the divine Redeemer who has won a complete triumph over sin and its consequences, finally obtained, as the supreme culmination of her privileges, that she should be preserved free from the corruption of the tomb and that, like her own Son, having overcome death, she might be taken up body and soul to the glory of heaven where, as Queen, she sits in splendor at the right hand of her Son, the immortal King of the Ages.[48]
http://www.ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/p12munif.htm

This still leaves wiggle room...
And it is Christ Who overcame death...
When He descended into Hades...
She didn't...
Because...
She was not resurrected as Christ Who did so was...
She but partakes of the Life of Christ...
Christ overcame death...
We sure do not overcome death, do you think?
We are but reborn into Christ Who DID so...

Arsenios

Arsenios

 

[patricius79]

Death is THE FUNDAMENTAL stain of the sin of Adam...

It is UPON DEATH that all have sinned....

No mystery about it - God told Adam that the very DAY that he ate of the forbidden fruit, he would die, and he ate and he died that day, so that we who are born in Adam are partakers of his death, and indeed we do not come alive in this life except by the action of the Holy Spirit in us in the Body of Christ....

It is the corruption of the person unto separation of body from soul...

Maybe I'm missing something, but that sounds like what the Catholic Church teaches: that there is an inward corruption (tendency toward sin) and stain and spiritual death (deprivation of holiness) which is passed on from Adam to all of us. Only my understanding is that you--Arsenios, personally, but not necessarily all Orthodox-- believe that this stain is passed on to the New Eve and the New Adam also (though of course they did not actually sin).

Other Popes have, I believe, taught differently....

This still leaves wiggle room...

I don't know. I know that something doesn't have to be taught dogmatically in order to require the assent of the Catholic Church. But I would like to see if there are other encyclicals--especially ones as important as the one which taught the Assumption dogmatically from the Chair of Rock--which say that Mary did not die.

And it is Christ Who overcame death...
When He descended into Hades...
She didn't...
Because...
She was not resurrected as Christ Who did so was...
She but partakes of the Life of Christ...
Christ overcame death...
We sure do not overcome death, do you think?
We are but reborn into Christ Who DID so...
Arsenios

I'm not following you. Of course, the Catholic Church does teach that the New Eve was preserved from all stain of Original Sin, and was taken up into heaven body and soul, and that she is our Co-Redemptrix in a way dependent entirely on the grace of Christ. Everything that Christ accomplished was done in the Mother of God.

 

[Arsenios]

Maybe I'm missing something, but that sounds like what the Catholic Church teaches: that there is an inward corruption (tendency toward sin) and stain and spiritual death (deprivation of holiness) which is passed on from Adam to all of us. Only my understanding is that you--Arsenios, personally, but not necessarily all Orthodox-- believe that this stain is passed on to the New Eve and the New Adam also (though of course they did not actually sin).

DEATH...

In the Garden God told Adam: "For in the day in which you eat of it, you will surely die."

He did not say "spiritual death"...

He said "You will die that day..."

So DEAD Adam was expelled from Paradise,
and endured a living death for some 900 years,
and died...

I don't know. I know that something doesn't have to be taught dogmatically in order to require the assent of the Catholic Church. But I would like to see if there are other encyclicals--especially ones as important as the one which taught the Assumption dogmatically from the Chair of Rock--which say that Mary did not die.

Dogmas don't change...

I'm not following you.

So you keep saying...

Of course, the Catholic Church does teach that the New Eve was preserved from all stain of Original Sin, and was taken up into heaven body and soul, and that she is our Co-Redemptrix in a way dependent entirely on the grace of Christ. Everything that Christ accomplished was done in the Mother of God.

She did not overcome death - Only Christ did...

Arsenios

 

[Standing Up]

DEATH...

In the Garden God told Adam: "For in the day in which you eat of it, you will surely die."

He did not say "spiritual death"...

He said "You will die that day..."

So DEAD Adam was expelled from Paradise,
and endured a living death for some 900 years,
and died...

DEAD in what sense? Not physical. Not soul. What's left? Spiritual. Ye must be born-again.

 

[Arsenios]

DEAD in what sense?
Not physical.
Not soul.

Both...

God did not create us in corruption but in incorruption...

Body AND Soul...

It was Adam's unrepented transgression that opened the door of the Cosmos for Death to enter...

And that Death passed through into all men...

And it is upon that Death [eph'on] that all have sinned...

What's left?
Spiritual.

Yes, the Holy Spirit,
The Lord and the Giver of Life,
into Whose Life we are born dead...

"Ye must be born-again."

Yes, in the Waters of Regeneration...
Which Christ Sanctified by His Baptism in the Jordan by John...

We are Baptized INTO Christ by Christ...

At the hands of His Servants...
As was Paul by Ananias...

Arsenios

 

[patricius79]

DEATH...

In the Garden God told Adam: "For in the day in which you eat of it, you will surely die."

He did not say "spiritual death"...

He said "You will die that day..."

Right. So his whole being was deprived of holiness.

So DEAD Adam was expelled from Paradise,
and endured a living death for some 900 years,
and died...



Dogmas don't change...

No, they don't. As I understand it, members of the Catholic Church are obligated to give their assent to anything taught by the Popes, especially if it is something that is taught repeatedly or emphasized solemnly.

From what I can tell, Catholics are obliged to assent that Mary died, even though this is not dogma, as the Immaculate Conception and Assumption are dogmas of the Catholic Church.

So you keep saying...

She did not overcome death - Only Christ did...

Arsenios

Mary did overcome death with Christ and through Christ, upon whom her role as Co-Redemptrix depends.

 

[Arsenios]

Right.
So his (Adam's) whole being was deprived of holiness.

My Brother, his whole being was deprived of Life...
Read the Scripture if you don't believe me...
I mean, who, in their right mind, would believe me anyway?

No, they don't. (Dogmas don't change)
As I understand it, members of the Catholic Church are obligated to give their assent
to anything taught by the Popes,
especially if it is something that is taught repeatedly or emphasized solemnly.

So can a Pope change any dogma at all ever??
How many Papal Dogmas exist?
How many are Ex-Cathedra?
Which ones are they?

From what I can tell, Catholics are obliged to assent that Mary died,
even though this is not dogma,
as the Immaculate Conception and Assumption
are dogmas of the Catholic Church.

Well, the false dogma of the IC came about the same time, I believe, as that of Her Assumption...
Both are very late dogmas...
The Feast of the Dormition of the Mother of God is a VERY ancient feast...
The Latins used to celebrate it with the rest of the Communion of the Body of Christ...
They renamed it the Feast of the Assumption, keeping the same date...
Feast days of the Church are Dogma in Orthodoxy...
Are they Dogma still in the Latin Confession?
They used to be... Has that changed?

Mary did overcome death with Christ and through Christ, upon whom her role as Co-Redemptrix depends.

This is a silly counter - All the Christian Saints therefore have overcome death...

Except they have not...

Christ ALONE is the Conquerer of Death...

Unless you are offering to us another Latin Dogma??

Arsenios

 

[patricius79]

My Brother, his whole being was deprived of Life...
Read the Scripture if you don't believe me...
I mean, who, in their right mind, would believe me anyway?



So can a Pope change any dogma at all ever??
How many Papal Dogmas exist?
How many are Ex-Cathedra?
Which ones are they?



Well, the false dogma of the IC came about the same time, I believe, as that of Her Assumption...
Both are very late dogmas...
The Feast of the Dormition of the Mother of God is a VERY ancient feast...
The Latins used to celebrate it with the rest of the Communion of the Body of Christ...
They renamed it the Feast of the Assumption, keeping the same date...
Feast days of the Church are Dogma in Orthodoxy...
Are they Dogma still in the Latin Confession?
They used to be... Has that changed?



This is a silly counter - All the Christian Saints therefore have overcome death...

Except they have not...

Christ ALONE is the Conquerer of Death...

Unless you are offering to us another Latin Dogma??

Arsenios

I don't know about the history of the feasts. I know that the Catholic Church believes in the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption, and that the Apostles Creed says "I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Catholic Church".

I think that the New Adam conquered death in communion with the New Eve, the Co-redemptrix.

 

[Arsenios]

I don't know about the history of the feasts. I know that the Catholic Church believes in the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption, and that the Apostles Creed says "I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Catholic Church".

I think that the New Adam conquered death in communion with the New Eve, the Co-redemptrix.

The Creed confesses:

"And I believe in one, holy, catholic and Apostolic Church..."

You think that your Pope is the Head of His Church on earth...

We confess that Christ is the Head of His Church on earth...

"Behold! I am with you always...
Even unto the end of the Age..."

The issue will not depart from this difference...

Arsenios

 

[patricius79]

The Creed confesses:

"And I believe in one, holy, catholic and Apostolic Church..."

You think that your Pope is the Head of His Church on earth...

We confess that Christ is the Head of His Church on earth...

"Behold! I am with you always...
Even unto the end of the Age..."

The issue will not depart from this difference...

Arsenios

The creed says "catholic". The Apostles creed says "I believe in the Holy Spirit ,the Holy Catholic Church, etc"

I agree that Christ is head of the Church on earth. That's why I accept the authority of His Vicar, the Successor of Rock, on whom Christ built the Church.

I know from the Catholic Church that all the teaching about our Mother are true.

 

[Arsenios]

The creed says "catholic". The Apostles creed says "I believe in the Holy Spirit ,the Holy Catholic Church, etc"

I agree that Christ is head of the Church on earth. That's why I accept the authority of His Vicar, the Successor of Rock, on whom Christ built the Church.

I know from the Catholic Church that all the teaching about our Mother are true.

May God bless your faith, my brother...

And may those above you and me address these issues...

Arsenios