Immaculate conception of Mary?

[Albion]

Then everything can be spin against Jesus since he is the new Adam...

There's no spin against Mary going on. The spin is in the invention of unScriptural and unwarranted supernatural qualities that the church has decided to endow her with. In other words, it's a spin done for her; that's why your attempt to compare it to Jesus--and say it's taking something from him--doesn't work.

 

[supersoldier71]

There's no spin against Mary going on. The spin is in the invention of unScriptural and unwarranted supernatural qualities that the church has decided to endow her with. In other words, it's a spin done for her; that's why your attempt to compare it to Jesus--and say it's taking something from him--doesn't work.

Mary IS my Sister in Christ, and unfortunately, she can't chime in right now, you know why? 'Cause she's in heaven with EVERY other saint saying: "Thank you Jesus!!!" And if you're with Jesus, you certainly aren't worried about this...or anything else.

But on to my point: Adam's sin was imputed to all of His descendants, it had to be, otherwise the model of salvation suffers a fatal flaw: we can't all receive imputed holiness and communion with Christ otherwise. Paul is explicitly clear on this point.

Imputation is how one man's sin tainted the entire race; imputation is those in Christ are redeemed. Since Catholics believe that Jesus died for everyone, we have as series of flaws, each of them fatal. If Adam didn't impart sin to everyone, everyone doesn't need a savior, which makes Jesus and all His prophets liars. Let's not do that.

Or, if sin was not imputed to everyone (counter to what Paul tells us in INSPIRED SCRIPTURE), then grace is not necessarily imputed either, because..well, apparently, it just doesn't work like that.

No: the trespass occurred, however, the plan for redemption pre-existed Adam and Eve where as the devil planned the imputation of Adam's sins as a curse, God has used this to His glory and the salvation, sanctification and ultimately, the heavenly glorification of His saints, which is a better outcome than even Adam possessed before the the fall.

 

[Arsenios]

The Mariology of the Immaculate Conception comes from the fathers biblical understanding that Mary is the "New Eve" ; "Graced One". In history biblically there are only 4 people made immaculate Adam and eve of old testament times and Jesus and Mary ; New Adam , New Eve. Both groups of persons are made of the same flesh....

I was asking when the doctrine of the Immaculate of the Immaculate Conception was first put forth... The Holy Fathers all understand that she was Grace-filled and the New Eve, but none of them say that She was given a special exemption from the Original Sin of Adam at her conception in the womb of Anna at the insemination of Joachim...

Do you KNOW when THAT doctrine first was proffered by the Latin Church?

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

As you know, Adam and Eve were guileless at the time of their creation, but they were also endowed with physical immortality, shamelessness when naked, and all the rest that Genesis says they lost when they were driven from the Garden. She wasn't even given the name Eve until after they committed their sins!

Mary had none of these attributes or benefits; she was a descendant of Adam and Eve in this regard just like all the rest of us.

By that do you mean that she was born mortal, as Paul so carefully explains?

The Church historically has understood that her mortality did not cause her to sin, as it did all other people, because of the very special Person Who She IS... The Latins think that this specialness of person was CAUSED by her EXEMPTION from the stain of the sin of Adam which was GIVEN to her alone, and not to any of the rest of us, and that she THEREFORE did not sin... The Orthodox hold, with you, that she was born subject to death and corruption in Adam just like the rest of us, but that She possessed utterly uncommon virtue, indeed a stainless virtue, which attracted God's Grace from Her Beginnings...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Mary IS my Sister in Christ, and unfortunately, she can't chime in right now, you know why? 'Cause she's in heaven with EVERY other saint saying: "Thank you Jesus!!!" And if you're with Jesus, you certainly aren't worried about this...or anything else.

But on to my point: Adam's sin was imputed to all of His descendants, it had to be, otherwise the model of salvation suffers a fatal flaw: we can't all receive imputed holiness and communion with Christ otherwise. Paul is explicitly clear on this point.

Imputation is how one man's sin tainted the entire race; imputation is those in Christ are redeemed. Since Catholics believe that Jesus died for everyone, we have as series of flaws, each of them fatal. If Adam didn't impart sin to everyone, everyone doesn't need a savior, which makes Jesus and all His prophets liars. Let's not do that.

Or, if sin was not imputed to everyone (counter to what Paul tells us in INSPIRED SCRIPTURE), then grace is not necessarily imputed either, because..well, apparently, it just doesn't work like that.

No: the trespass occurred, however, the plan for redemption pre-existed Adam and Eve where as the devil planned the imputation of Adam's sins as a curse, God has used this to His glory and the salvation, sanctification and ultimately, the heavenly glorification of His saints, which is a better outcome than even Adam possessed before the the fall.

My brother, Paul is very clear that sin is not imputed but is committed, and that death is imparted to us at birth, and that it is upon this imparted death into which we are all born that "all have sinned"...

And Grace is not imputed, but is imparted...

As it was to the Blessed Virgin Who birthed God [Theotokos] in the flesh.

You are right, btw, in the presence of God, words pretty much just disappear...



Arsenios

 

[justcoolforyou]

I was asking when the doctrine of the Immaculate of the Immaculate Conception was first put forth... The Holy Fathers all understand that she was Grace-filled and the New Eve, but none of them say that She was given a special exemption from the Original Sin of Adam at her conception in the womb of Anna at the insemination of Joachim...

Do you KNOW when THAT doctrine first was proffered by the Latin Church?

Arsenios

Homilies of the early church she is called the "fair ewe" from where the lamb of God took flesh...

He is the mute lamb, he is the slain lamb, he is born of Mary, the fair ewe, he is taken from the flock - See more at: http://en.mariedenazareth.com/qui-e...-century-mary-fair-ewe-0#sthash.5qaDF1UB.dpuf

The ewe in the old testament was a spotless female lamb...

 

[supersoldier71]

My brother, Paul is very clear that sin is not imputed but is committed, and that death is imparted to us at birth, and that it is upon this imparted death into which we are all born that "all have sinned"...

And Grace is not imputed, but is imparted...

As it was to the Blessed Virgin Who birthed God [Theotokos] in the flesh.

You are right, btw, in the presence of God, words pretty much just disappear...



Arsenios

Paul is exceptionally clear in Romans 5:19: Adam's disobedience made us all sinners.

God bless.

 

[supersoldier71]

Homilies of the early church she is called the "fair ewe" from where the lamb of God took flesh...

He is the mute lamb, he is the slain lamb, he is born of Mary, the fair ewe, he is taken from the flock - See more at: http://en.mariedenazareth.com/qui-e...-century-mary-fair-ewe-0#sthash.5qaDF1UB.dpuf

The ewe in the old testament was a spotless female lamb...

Then the homilies of the early church were already off the rails with a counter-biblical message.

God bless.

 

[justcoolforyou]

Then the homilies of the early church were already off the rails with a counter-biblical message.

God bless.

No you had no biblical canon yet...

 

[Arsenios]

Homilies of the early church she is called the "fair ewe" from where the lamb of God took flesh...

He is the mute lamb, he is the slain lamb, he is born of Mary, the fair ewe, he is taken from the flock - See more at: http://en.mariedenazareth.com/qui-e...-century-mary-fair-ewe-0#sthash.5qaDF1UB.dpuf

The ewe in the old testament was a spotless female lamb...

Spotless female lambs were not immaculately conceived...

The DOCTRINE of the I/C states that She was given AT Her conception a special EXEMPTION from Adam's sin...

Can you SHOW me that doctrine in ANY writings of the first thousand years of Christian history?

Arsenios

 

[justcoolforyou]

Spotless female lambs were not immaculately conceived...

The DOCTRINE of the I/C states that She was given AT Her conception a special EXEMPTION from Adam's sin...

Can you SHOW me that doctrine in ANY writings of the first thousand years of Christian history?

Arsenios

In the bible spotless lamb is the Immaculate Conception of Jesus... the early church songs show her as the fair ewe... spotless female lamb. That is your immaculate Conception concept in the early church...

The development of doctrines is not foreign to the bible... that is the very reason the holy spirit was sent; to reveal truth... the Immaculate Conception concept is found in the early church in the fair ewe and new eve...this is the very reason sola scriptora kills the very mission of the holy spirit. ..

 

[Arsenios]

Paul is exceptionally clear in Romans 5:19: Adam's disobedience made us all sinners.
God bless.

He tells you HOW the many became sinners a few lines earlier in:

Rom 5:12
Wherefore,
just as by one man sin entered into the world,
and death [entered into the world] by sin;
so also death ENTERED INTO all men,
UPON WHICH [death] all have sinned:

Adam's disobedience opened the way for death to enter the world...
Death then entered into all men...
And upon [eg: by reason of] that death in them, all men have sinned...

The Scripture is very clear...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

In the bible spotless lamb is the Immaculate Conception of Jesus...

Jesus WAS immaculately conceived...

The theory of the I/C is NOT about the conception of Jesus...

It is about the conception of Mary...

the early church songs show her as the fair ewe... spotless female lamb. That is your immaculate Conception concept in the early church...

It simply means that She was sinless, and does NOT say HOW She was so...

The development of doctrines is not foreign to the bible...
that is the very reason the holy spirit was sent; to reveal truth...
the Immaculate Conception concept is found in the early church
in the fair ewe and new eve...
this is the very reason sola scriptora kills the very mission of the holy spirit. ..

Sola Scriptura agrees with the Latin Church that Church Doctrine in an ongoing project of development...

Their authority is Scriptural Supremacy interpreted by themselves...

Yours is your doctrine of your own Papal supremacy interpreted by yourselves...

That is why we see the Protestants as Papalists where every man is his own Pope...

They strained the gnat and swallowed the camel...

For the Orthodox, the Church, not any person, is the Ground and Pillar of the Truth...

Messy-ier, but still dogmatically of one accord after 2000 years...

Arsenios

 

[prodromos]

In the bible spotless lamb is the Immaculate Conception of Jesus... the early church songs show her as the fair ewe... spotless female lamb. That is your immaculate Conception concept in the early church...

How was that expression exegeted by the early Fathers?

The development of doctrines is not foreign to the bible... that is the very reason the holy spirit was sent; to reveal truth... the Immaculate Conception concept is found in the early church in the fair ewe and new eve...this is the very reason sola scriptora kills the very mission of the holy spirit. ..

Development of doctrine is completely foreign to Orthodoxy. We do not develop doctrine, we merely defend that which was handed down.

 

[justcoolforyou]

How was that expression exegeted by the early Fathers?
.

Old testament types of Mary... we also see the spotless ewe lamb that was offered to the lord in old testament sacrificial rituals. Luke 2:35 we see the sword of mary united to that of the cross of Christ the lamb of God. The sinless woman who has no labor or pain Isaiah 66:7.

The new eve
The wedding at cana taking place on the 7th day listed in the gospel of john revealed this. Gospel starts off with images of Genesis creation, John the Baptist speaks of the bride groom, the center theme is a wedding. then the 7th day listed jesus and Mary[ called woman by Jesus ] are the two central character at the wedding of Cana...

 

[Arsenios]

Old testament types of Mary... we also see the spotless ewe lamb that was offered to the lord in old testament sacrificial rituals. Luke 2:35 we see the sword of mary united to that of the cross of Christ the lamb of God. The sinless woman who has no labor or pain Isaiah 66:7.

The new eve
The wedding at cana taking place on the 7th day listed in the gospel of john revealed this. Gospel starts off with images of Genesis creation, John the Baptist speaks of the bride groom, the center theme is a wedding. then the 7th day listed jesus and Mary[ called woman by Jesus ] are the two central character at the wedding of Cana...

And what, exactly, has any of this have to do with the false theory that Mariam was exempted by special Grace from God from all stain of original sin of Adam?? Special Grace at conception is not a part of ANY of your profferings... Not even Christ at His Immaculate Conception was given any such exemption - He took upon Himself the entirety of our fallen human condition, and healed it in Himself... That is one of the reasons He incarnated... And He did so in order not just to get back to the Garden, but to take mankind into God Himself...

Arsenios

 

[justcoolforyou]

And what, exactly, has any of this have to do with the false theory that Mariam was exempted by special Grace from God from all stain of original sin of Adam?? Special Grace at conception is not a part of ANY of your profferings... Not even Christ at His Immaculate Conception was given any such exemption - He took upon Himself the entirety of our fallen human condition, and healed it in Himself... That is one of the reasons He incarnated... And He did so in order not just to get back to the Garden, but to take mankind into God Himself...

Arsenios

So are you saying jesus was born in the sin of Adam and Eve?

 

[prodromos]

Old testament types of Mary... we also see the spotless ewe lamb that was offered to the lord in old testament sacrificial rituals. Luke 2:35 we see the sword of mary united to that of the cross of Christ the lamb of God. The sinless woman who has no labor or pain Isaiah 66:7.

The new eve
The wedding at cana taking place on the 7th day listed in the gospel of john revealed this. Gospel starts off with images of Genesis creation, John the Baptist speaks of the bride groom, the center theme is a wedding. then the 7th day listed jesus and Mary[ called woman by Jesus ] are the two central character at the wedding of Cana...

You didn't quote any Church Fathers, so you still haven't answered my question.

 

[prodromos]

So are you saying jesus was born in the sin of Adam and Eve?

Unfortunately you will interpret the answer within the framework of the Latin (mis)conception of original sin.

 

[Arsenios]

Old testament types of Mary... we also see the spotless ewe lamb that was offered to the lord in old testament sacrificial rituals. Luke 2:35 we see the sword of mary united to that of the cross of Christ the lamb of God. The sinless woman who has no labor or pain Isaiah 66:7.

The new eve
The wedding at cana taking place on the 7th day listed in the gospel of john revealed this. Gospel starts off with images of Genesis creation, John the Baptist speaks of the bride groom, the center theme is a wedding. then the 7th day listed jesus and Mary[ called woman by Jesus ] are the two central character at the wedding of Cana...

So which Holy Father, and where, exegeted your spotless ewe-lamb to mean that the Blessed Virgin was conceived with a special blessing that none of the rest of us have, and in this blessing conceived Christ Who would then have to be likewise fundamentally different in His conceived humanity from all the rest of mankind? Which Holy Father, and Where, ever said such a thing? That She was conceived without the stain of Original Sin? The stain of which is DEATH... Into which ALL are born, even Christ, Who OVERCAME DEATH by His Holy and Voluntary Death on the Holy Cross...

Arsenios