Immaculate conception of Mary?

[Standing Up]

By that do you mean that she was born mortal, as Paul so carefully explains?

The Church historically has understood that her mortality did not cause her to sin, as it did all other people, because of the very special Person Who She IS... The Latins think that this specialness of person was CAUSED by her EXEMPTION from the stain of the sin of Adam which was GIVEN to her alone, and not to any of the rest of us, and that she THEREFORE did not sin... The Orthodox hold, with you, that she was born subject to death and corruption in Adam just like the rest of us, but that She possessed utterly uncommon virtue, indeed a stainless virtue, which attracted God's Grace from Her Beginnings...

Arsenios

Hmmm, RC does teach she was born (conceived) that way, but EO, IIRC, teach she became that way upon her agreement with the Spirit.

 

[Standing Up]

So are you saying jesus was born in the sin of Adam and Eve?

Born in sin or born spiritually dead as a result of sin? Christ, as you know, had God the Father, so He was born spiritually alive (so to speak), just as He already was, sans a physical body. For the rest of us, we have to be born again.

 

[Arsenios]

Hmmm, RC does teach she was born (conceived) that way, but EO, IIRC, teach she became that way upon her agreement with the Spirit.

She never escaped Her MORTAL nature, the one which causes us all to sin...
THAT is WHY She DIED...
The Latins hold that believing She died is optional...

We commemorate the date of Her death as Her DORMITION... [eg Death]
The Latins RENAMED it the ASSUMPTION of Mary...

We both believe she was assumed bodily into heaven, but for the Latins, Her death is an optional belief, and for us, it is dogmatically required. If you do not believe She died, you are not Orthodox...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Born in sin or born spiritually dead as a result of sin? Christ, as you know, had God the Father, so He was born spiritually alive (so to speak), just as He already was, sans a physical body. For the rest of us, we have to be born again.

Christ received a MORTAL body from the Blessed Virgin. This is affirmed in the flight of the Holy Family to Egypt to escape Herod's killing of all the children in Bethlehem and the surrounding area. He could be killed as a baby... But once He began His ministry, He could ONLY be killed on the Cross, and even there, His death was by His own will, as John records... By the time He began the ministry, He had utterly overcome the world, and in this, He had healed His mortal body from all its infirmities, and as a mighty human being, He entered Hades and overcame Death there, and arose the third day...

Our rebirth is into His Resurrected fully human and death-conquering body. We still physically pass from this earth, but the Faithful no longer die, having been Baptized into Christ's Death...

Arsenios

 

[justcoolforyou]

Unfortunately you will interpret the answer within the framework of the Latin (mis)conception of original sin.

Your interpretation fails because Jesus is the spotless lamb; his physical body and blood are spotless...

 

[justcoolforyou]

So which Holy Father, and where, exegeted your spotless ewe-lamb to mean that the Blessed Virgin was conceived with a special blessing that none of the rest of us have, and in this blessing conceived Christ Who would then have to be likewise fundamentally different in His conceived humanity from all the rest of mankind? Which Holy Father, and Where, ever said such a thing? That She was conceived without the stain of Original Sin? The stain of which is DEATH... Into which ALL are born, even Christ, Who OVERCAME DEATH by His Holy and Voluntary Death on the Holy Cross...

Arsenios

Mary’s Immaculate Conception

"He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption."Hippolytus, Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me (ante A.D. 235).

"This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one." Origen, Homily 1(A.D. 244).

"Let woman praise Her, the pure Mary." Ephraim, Hymns on the Nativity, 15:23 (A.D. 370).

"Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother." Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8 (A.D. 370).

"O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides." Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin, 71:216 (ante AD 373).

"Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin." Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388).

"We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin." Augustine, Nature and Grace,4 2[36] (A.D.415).

"As he formed her without my stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain." Proclus of Constantinople, Homily 1 (ante A.D. 446).

"A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns." Theodotus of Ancrya, Homily VI:11(ante A.D. 446).

"The angel took not the Virgin from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged in the womb, when she was made." Peter Chrysologus, Sermon 140 (A.D. 449).

"[T]he very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary, if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary." Jacob of Sarug (ante A.D. 521).

"She is born like the cherubim, she who is of a pure, immaculate clay."Theotokos of Livias, Panegyric for the feast of the Assumption, 5:6 (ante A.D. 650).

"Today humanity, in all the radiance of her immaculate nobility, receives its ancient beauty. The shame of sin had darkened the splendour and attraction of human nature; but when the Mother of the Fair One par excellence is born, this nature regains in her person its ancient privileges and is fashioned according to a perfect model truly worthy of God.... The reform of our nature begins today and the aged world, subjected to a wholly divine transformation, receives the first fruits of the second creation." Andrew of Crete, Sermon I, On the Birth of Mary (A.D. 733).

"[T]ruly elect, and superior to all, not by the altitude of lofty structures, but as excelling all in the greatness and purity of sublime and divine virtues, and having no affinity with sin whatever." Germanus of Constantinople, Marracci in S. Germani Mariali (ante A.D. 733).

"O most blessed loins of Joachim from which came forth a spotless seed! O glorious womb of Anne in which a most holy offspring grew."John of Damascus, Homily I (ante A.D. 749).

 

[Arsenios]

Mary’s Immaculate Conception

"He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption."Hippolytus, Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me (ante A.D. 235).

"This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one." Origen, Homily 1(A.D. 244).

"Let woman praise Her, the pure Mary." Ephraim, Hymns on the Nativity, 15:23 (A.D. 370).

"Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother." Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8 (A.D. 370).

"O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides." Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin, 71:216 (ante AD 373).

"Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin." Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388).

"We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin." Augustine, Nature and Grace,4 2[36] (A.D.415).

"As he formed her without my stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain." Proclus of Constantinople, Homily 1 (ante A.D. 446).

"A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns." Theodotus of Ancrya, Homily VI:11(ante A.D. 446).

"The angel took not the Virgin from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged in the womb, when she was made." Peter Chrysologus, Sermon 140 (A.D. 449).

"[T]he very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary, if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary." Jacob of Sarug (ante A.D. 521).

"She is born like the cherubim, she who is of a pure, immaculate clay."Theotokos of Livias, Panegyric for the feast of the Assumption, 5:6 (ante A.D. 650).

"Today humanity, in all the radiance of her immaculate nobility, receives its ancient beauty. The shame of sin had darkened the splendour and attraction of human nature; but when the Mother of the Fair One par excellence is born, this nature regains in her person its ancient privileges and is fashioned according to a perfect model truly worthy of God.... The reform of our nature begins today and the aged world, subjected to a wholly divine transformation, receives the first fruits of the second creation." Andrew of Crete, Sermon I, On the Birth of Mary (A.D. 733).

"[T]ruly elect, and superior to all, not by the altitude of lofty structures, but as excelling all in the greatness and purity of sublime and divine virtues, and having no affinity with sin whatever." Germanus of Constantinople, Marracci in S. Germani Mariali (ante A.D. 733).

"O most blessed loins of Joachim from which came forth a spotless seed! O glorious womb of Anne in which a most holy offspring grew."John of Damascus, Homily I (ante A.D. 749).

Not one of these states that She was exempted from death at Her conception.

Nov 15th is the Feast of the Dormition of the Theotokos...

Dormition means Death...

IF She was so EXEMPTED FROM DEATH, as YOU are insisting,
THEN She did not give to Christ a human nature in need of healing...
BECAUSE all the rest of humanity are NOT so exempted...

You perhaps recall that Death is the LAST enemy for God to overcome...
She gave Him what She possessed to give... A pure humanity subject to Death...

Arsenios

 

[justcoolforyou]

Not one of these states that She was exempted from death at Her conception.

Nov 15th is the Feast of the Dormition of the Theotokos...

Dormition means Death...

Arsenios

The roman catholic church has no dogma on the death of Mary... so there is no problem with that ..

 

[Albion]

The roman catholic church has no dogma on the death of Mary... so there is no problem with that ..

This is true. The Church has not taken a position on whether she died and her body was taken to heaven or if she instead was spared from a physical death and was taken to heaven. However, the legends of her Assumption stem from claims that several of the claimed burial places of the Virgin were later found to be vacant when the grave was opened.

 

[concretecamper]

Until the Church defines it, I'll continue to believe she died first and then was assumed into Heaven. Althoug Christ would have granted anything to His Mother, I believe that she would have chosen death as to follow in the footsteps of her Son and Savior.

 

[prodromos]

Your interpretation fails because Jesus is the spotless lamb; his physical body and blood are spotless...

See, you did exactly what I said you would do, interpret it in the erroneous Latin framework of Original Sin.

 

[prodromos]

The roman catholic church has no dogma on the death of Mary... so there is no problem with that ..

Its not like celebrating a feast day commemorating her death every year in the liturgical cycle of the Church is dogma or anything. Oh wait, yes it is

 

[justcoolforyou]

See, you did exactly what I said you would do, interpret it in the erroneous Latin framework of Original Sin.

You divided the human person when the act of original sin was of the Spirit and body of adam and eve...

 

[Arsenios]

The roman catholic church has no dogma on the death of Mary... so there is no problem with that ..

The Dogma of the Church that the Mother of our Lord DIED is theologically ESSENTIAL to the Faith of Christ...

Apparently it is NOT theologically essential to those who follow the Latin faith...

So there IS a MAJOR theological problem here between us...

Do any of you have a priest who is a friend
who can tell you if the death of Mary
is a dogma of the Latin Church?

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Until the Church defines it,
I'll continue to believe she died first
and then was assumed into Heaven.

You do well to continue...

The Church HAS defined it..
She DID die first...
She was buried...
And THEN She was assumed bodily into Heaven...

EVERY OTHER Apostolic Church carries this dogmatic teaching...

Arsenios

 

[justcoolforyou]

The Dogma of the Church that the Mother of our Lord DIED is theologically ESSENTIAL to the Faith of Christ...

Apparently it is NOT theologically essential to those who follow the Latin faith...

So there IS a MAJOR theological problem here between us...

Do any of you have a priest who is a friend
who can tell you if the death of Mary
is a dogma of the Latin Church?

Arsenios

Its not a dogma but the tradition is part of the faith in the roman catholic church

 

[Arsenios]

Its not a dogma but the tradition is part of the faith in the roman catholic church

Her death or not-death?

Both, you see, cannot be...

Aristotle says so...

A thing cannot both be and not be what it is..

That which is, is what it is...

And is not that which it is not...

Arsenios

 

[prodromos]

Its not a dogma but the tradition is part of the faith in the roman catholic church

Like I said, it used to be celebrated every year in the liturgical cycle, but then at some point the Latins changed the name of the feast day from Dormition to Assumption and thereafter forgot the earlier dogma they celebrated. Seems to be a problem with Catholics.

 

[concretecamper]

You do well to continue...

The Church HAS defined it..
She DID die first...
She was buried...
And THEN She was assumed bodily into Heaven...

EVERY OTHER Apostolic Church carries this dogmatic teaching...

Arsenios

Wrong...the Church has not defined it.

Maybe some schismatic groups believe one thing or the other but I am not sure what that means to me, a member of His Church.

 

[Arsenios]

Wrong...the Church has not defined it.

Maybe some schismatic groups believe one thing or the other but I am not sure what that means to me, a member of His Church.

Forgive me my brother -
If I were speaking for myself alone, I would of course be wrong...
If for my parish and my priest, I would be wrong...
If for my Bishop or Metropolitan, I would be wrong...
If for but one, My own Pope or Patriarch, I would be wrong...
And if for all the Popes and Patriarchs for a brief time in the history of Christianity...
Even then I would be wrong...

But the Church, you see, is the Communion of all the Apostolic Churches throughout the History of the Body of Christ upon this earth, and the whole of ALL these Sacred and Holy Churches is of ONE accord in this matter of the mortality of the Mother of our Lord throughout the entire history of the world since the Incarnation of God on earth...

For them ALL, Her mortality is DOGMA...

I must agree with you, that there is but ONE Apostolic Communion that has separated Herself from ALL the other Apostolic Communions and CHANGED that dogma into an OPTIONAL belief, and thereby declared Herself to be standing in Schism from the Body of Christ on earth... And within that Communion, the Latin Communion, I agree with you that there are "some schismatic groups (that) believe one thing or the other", but the Body of Christ on earth, the Apostolic Faith of Christ, all and with one accord, receive the Apostolic teaching from tthe very beginnings, that Mariam is Mortal, that She died and was buried... Her bodily Ascension into heaven is not yet a dogmatic tenet, but is received by all as well...

There is only one schizmatic Communion in the entire 2000 year history of the Church on earth that wrongly thinks that belief in Her mortality and death is not a Dogmatic Truth of the Faith of Christ, and believes, as you say, "one thing or the other"... ALL the rest believe ONE thing, and NOT the other...

We can discuss WHY this Truth is true, and WHY one Apostolic Communion alone by Herself has historically come to believe that it is NOT true, but the HISTORY of its reception BY the Church of Christ on earth cannot be contradicted... The Latins are the ONLY Church to officially make this Dogma of the Faith an OPTIONAL belief for Her Faithful... They renamed the Feast Day of the Dormition of the Theotokos to be called "The Feast of the Assumption" falling the same day...

The Church has Spoken in Truth and in Deed on this matter...

Arsenios