• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Immaculate conception of Mary?

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,127
33,262
✟583,992.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married


In the first millennium there was an 'implicit awareness' of what was universally accepted and held by the entire Church in the 15th century and defined as dogma in the 19th century.

By "implicit awareness," I assume you mean no awareness. At least not until much after the time of the Apostolic and Ancient churches. That would be why you said "in the first millennium" as though almost 1000 years after Christ were somehow to be considered Apostolic.

Not unlike with our Trinitarian and Christological dogmas, belief in the Immaculate Conception was attained through a progressive awareness

Ah, "progressive awareness." Well, that's my position, too. It's a legend that gradually developed and then the Papacy decided to dogmatize it.
 
Upvote 0

Standing Up

On and on
Sep 3, 2008
25,360
2,757
Around about
✟73,735.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Please quote New Advent. Taking ancient Jewish parallel poetry into account, the antagonist against the serpent must be the woman, and against its offspring the woman's child. The woman is at enmity with the serpent, and her seed against its seed.

" "and I will put enmity between thee and the woman and her seed; she (he) shall crush thy head and thou shalt lie in wait for her (his) heel" (Genesis 3:15). The translation "she" of the Vulgate is interpretative; it originated after the fourth century, and cannot be defended critically. "
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Immaculate Conception

One shouldn't change God-breathed words to fit your preconceptions. One should change one's mind to fit God-breathed scripture.
 
Upvote 0
B

barryatlake

Guest
The early Church Fathers have this, the “she” reading is the traditional reading of the Latin Vulgate and it is important because it highlights the importance of “the woman” ( Mary) in human salvation. In other words, the “she shall crush” reading supports the Catholic argument that Mary’s role as Mother of God makes her Mediatrix and her role as New Eve makes her Coredemptrix.

The obvious solution to this problem is simply to look at the original Hebrew. But that is where the problem begins. The medieval Hebrew Masoretic manuscripts read “he shall crush.” (However, there are two Hebrew manuscripts that read “she shall crush.”) However, there is good reason to doubt the majority Hebrew reading of “he shall crush.”

Our three best Jewish witnesses to Gen 3:15 interpret the passage as “she shall crush.” These are Philo Judaeus, Josephus the roman historian, and Moses Maimonides, the great medieval Jewish philosopher. Philo argues that the Hebrew parallel poetry of Gen 3:15 demands the reading of “she shall crush.” Josephus, also writing in Greek, describes the passage for us as reading “she shall crush.” Then last of all, Maimonides also states that Gen 3:15 teaches that the woman shall crush the head of the serpent.

So then, these three great Jewish scholars testify to the traditional Catholic reading of the Latin Vulgate. Why are the Hebrew manuscripts that we have today different from these ancient Jewish witnesses. The answer is that the Masoretic manuscript tradition has been corrupted – something claimed by the both the Eastern and Western Fathers throughout the centuries.

I’m going to revert to the traditional reading of Gen 3:15 from herein out: “she shall crush your head.”

“I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel” (Gen 3:15).

O Mary conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,127
33,262
✟583,992.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
The early Church Fathers have this, the “she” reading is the traditional reading of the Latin Vulgate and it is important because it highlights the importance of “the woman” ( Mary) in human salvation. In other words, the “she shall crush” reading supports the Catholic argument that Mary’s role as Mother of God makes her Mediatrix and her role as New Eve makes her Coredemptrix.
The notion of Mary as the equal of Christ in the matter of salvation is a grotesque error IMO, but none of this has anything to do with the other legend that we're discussing here--the Immaculate Conception. I will agree that all of these myths and embellishments build upon each other, but it's still the legend about her being conceived without original sin that's the topic.
 
Upvote 0

justinangel

Newbie
Feb 19, 2011
1,301
197
Btwn heaven & earth
✟21,449.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Albion;671786[FONT="Palatino Linotype" said:
[/FONT]52]By "implicit awareness," I assume you mean no awareness. At least not until much after the time of the Apostolic and Ancient churches.

What I mean is an awareness that suggests something that is not directly expressed or completely fathomed yet: Mary, the new Eve; Mary, a lily among thorns, Mary unsullied, Mary free from any stain of sin, Mary who contracted no stain, etc.. You claimed there were no teachings on Mary's sinlessness in the first millennium. I in turn quoted several Church Fathers to show the contrary.

Justin Martyr and Irenaeus are close to the Apostolic age. They bore witness to what was traditionally passed on from that age. Let's not argue from silence. Most written documents from this period are lost thanks to the Roman persecution of the Church.


That would be why you said "in the first millennium" as though almost 1000 years after Christ were somehow to be considered Apostolic.

In the first millennium means during, not after it.

Ah, "progressive awareness." Well, that's my position, too. It's a legend that gradually developed and then the Papacy decided to dogmatize it.

We become more aware of things that are real and true. You might hear about a unicorn, but you can't become aware of its actual existence, since it is a myth or a legend. The Church Fathers did not promote legends.

PAX
:angel:
 
Upvote 0

Standing Up

On and on
Sep 3, 2008
25,360
2,757
Around about
✟73,735.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
The early Church Fathers have this, the “she” reading is the traditional reading of the Latin Vulgate and it is important because it highlights the importance of “the woman” ( Mary) in human salvation. In other words, the “she shall crush” reading supports the Catholic argument that Mary’s role as Mother of God makes her Mediatrix and her role as New Eve makes her Coredemptrix.

The obvious solution to this problem is simply to look at the original Hebrew. But that is where the problem begins. The medieval Hebrew Masoretic manuscripts read “he shall crush.” (However, there are two Hebrew manuscripts that read “she shall crush.”) However, there is good reason to doubt the majority Hebrew reading of “he shall crush.”

Our three best Jewish witnesses to Gen 3:15 interpret the passage as “she shall crush.” These are Philo Judaeus, Josephus the roman historian, and Moses Maimonides, the great medieval Jewish philosopher. Philo argues that the Hebrew parallel poetry of Gen 3:15 demands the reading of “she shall crush.” Josephus, also writing in Greek, describes the passage for us as reading “she shall crush.” Then last of all, Maimonides also states that Gen 3:15 teaches that the woman shall crush the head of the serpent.

So then, these three great Jewish scholars testify to the traditional Catholic reading of the Latin Vulgate. Why are the Hebrew manuscripts that we have today different from these ancient Jewish witnesses. The answer is that the Masoretic manuscript tradition has been corrupted – something claimed by the both the Eastern and Western Fathers throughout the centuries.

I’m going to revert to the traditional reading of Gen 3:15 from herein out: “she shall crush your head.”

“I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel” (Gen 3:15).

O Mary conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.

I doubt any of this can be substantiated.

1) Please quote Josephus and Philo re Gen 3:15. (Maimonides is 1000 years too late.)

2) The Septuagent vs. Masoretic. Septuagent uses "he". So there goes that false argument also. The seed is Christ

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman and between thy seed and her seed, he shall watch against thy head, and thou shalt watch against his heel.

PS. Where'd you quote this from? You need to cite your sources and check them, rather than simply accept their information.
 
Upvote 0

Rhamiel

Member of the Round Table
Nov 11, 2006
41,182
9,432
ohio
✟256,121.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
" "and I will put enmity between thee and the woman and her seed; she (he) shall crush thy head and thou shalt lie in wait for her (his) heel" (Genesis 3:15). The translation "she" of the Vulgate is interpretative; it originated after the fourth century, and cannot be defended critically. "
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Immaculate Conception

One shouldn't change God-breathed words to fit your preconceptions. One should change one's mind to fit God-breathed scripture.

there was a verse in the Latin Vulgate that was not a strong translation

ok, what is your point?
do you think every line of the KJV or the NIV is perfectly done?
translations errors happen
you are VERY uncharitable in your conclusion that that it was "changed" to fit their preconceptions
 
Upvote 0

Standing Up

On and on
Sep 3, 2008
25,360
2,757
Around about
✟73,735.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
there was a verse in the Latin Vulgate that was not a strong translation

ok, what is your point?
do you think every line of the KJV or the NIV is perfectly done?
translations errors happen
you are VERY uncharitable in your conclusion that that it was "changed" to fit their preconceptions

After the error has been pointed out for some 500 years, one has to wonder. Why does Douay-Rheims still use "she"? No other translation I'm award of does.

For example KJV used "easter" in Acts, it was changed in NKJV.
 
Upvote 0

Standing Up

On and on
Sep 3, 2008
25,360
2,757
Around about
✟73,735.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Jerome's translation is circa 400 A.D. Yet we can find at least one early Christian interpreting the same verse with "she," such as Tertullian writing around 205 A.D. in his work On the Apparel of Women.

Again, like with Philo and Josephus, quote Tertullian re "she" and Gen. 3:15.
 
Upvote 0
B

barryatlake

Guest
Standing Up I picked this off of a document written by Michael Voris S. T. M. also watch a short yet very informative explanation on Gen. 3:15 here at RealCatholicTV.Com on program called "The Vortex"

Scriptural revisionism---- sorry that it's so long , but it is very good on Gen.3:15

Today, the devil is wagging his ugly tail more than ever, and with some whiteout and some whitewash, is seeking to blot out Mary from Scripture and tradition. And, no doubt about it, modern bibles have altered many passages concerning Mary, de-emphasizing her role in God's plan of salvation. Take, for instance, those famed words of God through the Angel Gabriel, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee...," meaning Mary was full of God's grace and that the devil never had any part of her, as was used by Pope Pius XI in his definition on the Immaculate Conception. But what has become of these words in many a modern bible? "Rejoice, highly favored daughter." The question is: what does it mean to be a highly favored daughter? Were not Judith, Deborras and Esther highly favored daughters? No matter how special these were, Mary is much more. She, as the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches, is "the new Eve, 'full of grace' of the Holy Spirit, is preserved from sin and the corruption of death...." (#2853) Other passages referring to Our Lady from what was formerly called Ecclesiasticus (now called Sirach), are completely missing from modern versions. Passages that the Church has applied to Our Lady such as, "I am the mother of fair love, and of fear, and of knowledge, and of holy hope. In me is all grace of the way and of the truth, in me is all hope of life and of virtue. Come over to me, all ye that desire me, and be filled with my fruits. For my spirit is sweet above honey, and my inheritance above honey and the honeycomb. My memory is unto everlasting generations", etc., are gone.[4] Also, amazingly the passage "blessed art thou among women" of St. Luke's Gospel (Luke 1:28) is completely missing in action from many of the new bibles. Surely, the devil's tail has wiped out and whited-out these praises of Our Lady.

Other passages of holy Scripture concerning Our Lady have been obscured as well, but we must go on now to focus on that most important of passages, the Protoevangelium, which the Catechism of the Catholic Church says is the first gospel.

In most modern bibles, you will find the second part of this first gospel Genesis 3:15 changed to "... he will bruise your head and you shall bruise his heel." Most definitely this wording works to downplay Our Lady's role in our plan of redemption. The great biblical scholar St. Jerome, numerous Popes, saints and, as the Catechism of the Catholic Church puts it, "Many Fathers and Doctors of the Church," have said that the woman in this passage refers to Mary.

During an English persecution, a group of Catholic biblical scholars fled to Douay in what is now Belgium, and produced the famous Douay-Rheims version in 1609. This is a faithful English translation of the bible, the Latin Vulgate of St. Jerome. The fact that the Church has canonized St. Jerome, only adds weight to the authority and authenticity of his work. The translation reads, "I will place enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she will crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for his heel."[5] This text reads the same as the Latin Vulgate: "Inimicitias ponam inter te et mulierem, et sperm tuum et sperm illius: ipsa conteret caput tuum, et tu insidiaberis calcaneo ejus...." In this Vulgate translation, it is clear that the Latin word ipsa can only mean she. But let us see what our Protestant counterparts did two years later in 1611 with this passage. Do you suppose, with their ideas concerning Our Lady, that they kept the same translation? The King James version produced by men, not by the Church of God inspired by the Holy Spirit, had this to say of Genesis 3:15: "I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: It shall bruise thy head and thou shall bruise his heel."[6] It is not quite the same.

As we have seen there are different schools of thought concerning this extremely important passage which the Church has declared the first gospel. Modern scholars and Protestant bible experts often say he or it while numerous Doctors and Fathers of the Church--including the great trio of Mariologists St. Alphonsus de Liguori, St. Maximilian Kolbe and St. Louis De Montfort--say she. Whom shall we place our stock in? This definitely deserves a closer look.

First, we shall examine the thoughts of three Jewish scholarly giants: Josephus (d. 101 A.D.), Philo (d. 40 A.D.) and Maimonides (d. 1204 A.D.). To begin with, Josephus states, "He ordained that the woman should inflict wounds on his head." This becomes evident that Josephus in his day read the word aute, that is to say, "she."[7] It is important to note, Josephus and Philo both wrote in Greek but also knew Hebrew, so their testimony is a common witness that the Greek of the Septuagint of their day was aute, and that the Hebrew pronoun was pronounced HI or HEE, all meaning "she."[8] Later witness of this fact is given by another Jewish philosopher, Moses Maimonides, who did not believe in the Messianic or Mariological content of the prophecy but nevertheless had this to say:

"But what must be admired most of all, is that the serpent is joined with Eve, that is, its seed with her seed, its head with her heel; that she (Eve) should conquer it (the serpent) in the head, and that it should conquer her in the heel."[9]

In our own Catholic tradition, the Latin Vulgate of St. Jerome stands alone among Catholic bibles, reading ipsa, or "she." It must be noted that the Latin Vulgate was the official translation during the time of Vatican II, and into the 20th century and our generation. Since the Greek and Hebrew versions do not enjoy this distinction, the Vulgate possesses the greatest authority. The Council of Trent declared "that this same old and Vulgate edition, which has been approved by being used in the same Church for so many ages, should be accounted authentic in public lectures, disputations, sermons, and expositions, and that no one should dare or presume to reject it under any pretext whatsoever."[10] Can we not hear the words of St. Augustine telling us, "I would not believe the Gospel were I not moved thereto by the authority of the Catholic Church."[11] Furthermore, "St. Alphonsus contends that when it comes down to a choice between the Hebrew and the Vulgate, as we have here, we should hold with the Vulgate."[12] We--Catholics especially--should hold dear to the word "she," for she is our Mother.

Now, having put this issue to rest, let us resume our study of Genesis 3:15, in its obvious and literal sense. One of the most remarkable minds the Church has ever produced, the convert John Cardinal Henry Newman, had this to say:

"'I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed.' The Seed of the woman is the Word Incarnate, and the Woman, whose seed or Son He is, is His Mother Mary. This interpretation, and the parallelism it involves, seem to me undeniable; but at all events (and this is my point) the parallelism is the doctrine of the Fathers, from the earliest times; and, this being established, we are able, by the position and office of Eve in our fall, to determine the position and office of Mary in our restoration."[13]
 
Upvote 0

Standing Up

On and on
Sep 3, 2008
25,360
2,757
Around about
✟73,735.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
-snip-First, we shall examine the thoughts of three Jewish scholarly giants: Josephus (d. 101 A.D.), Philo (d. 40 A.D.) and Maimonides (d. 1204 A.D.). To begin with, Josephus states, "He ordained that the woman should inflict wounds on his head." This becomes evident that Josephus in his day read the word aute, that is to say, "she."[7] It is important to note, Josephus and Philo both wrote in Greek but also knew Hebrew, so their testimony is a common witness that the Greek of the Septuagint of their day was aute, and that the Hebrew pronoun was pronounced HI or HEE, all meaning "she."[8]-snip-[13]

Quote the sources (Josephus, Philo, Tertullian, Septuagent). I've shown the Septuagent translation as "he".

Your source fails to even quote anything from Philo.

But here's what I found from Josephus:

He also made Eve liable to the inconveniency of breeding, and the sharp pains of bringing forth children; and this because she persuaded Adam with the same arguments wherewith the serpent had persuaded her, and had thereby brought him into a calamitous condition. He also deprived the serpent of speech, out of indignation at his malicious disposition towards Adam. Besides this, he inserted poison under his tongue, and made him an enemy to men; and suggested to them, that they should direct their strokes against his head, that being the place wherein lay his mischievous designs towards men, and it being easiest to take vengeance on him, that way. "
Chapter 1 - Bible Study Tools

"They", not "she" or "he". We shouldn't be surprised Josephus fails to recognize the seed of the woman; that is, Christ. Which is to say Gen. 3:15 "he". But clearly Josephus has zero notion of the beginnings of Mariology dogma; that is, "she".

Again, provide Philo or Tertullian.
 
Upvote 0
B

barryatlake

Guest
Standing Up, Listen to Tertullian who lived in the 200’s A.D. . . .

"God recovered His image and likeness, which the devil had seized,
by a rival operation.
For into Eve, as yet a virgin, had crept the word which was the framer of death.
Equally into a virgin was to be introduced the Word of God which was
the builder up of life;
that, what by that sex (gender) had gone into perdition,
by the same sex (gender) might be brought back to salvation.
Eve had believed the serpent;
Mary believed Gabriel;
the fault which the one committed by believing,
the other by believing has blotted out."
Tertullian. De Carn.Christ. 17. Tertullian Died in 240 A.D.
 
Upvote 0
B

barryatlake

Guest
Standing Up, I usually don't like KJV,
but for sake argument...)

This verse, is often associated with Mary, as this "seed" is of the "woman" (Eve), and
though the KJV uses the pronoun "it", FOUR notable men in history have translated/–
–/interpreted the pronoun as "SHE":

- Titus Flavius Josephus – *1st Cent*
- Philo Judaeus –––––––– *1st Cent*
- Saint Jerome –––––––––- 5th Cent
- Moses Maimonides ––– 12th Cent
 
Upvote 0

Standing Up

On and on
Sep 3, 2008
25,360
2,757
Around about
✟73,735.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Standing Up, I usually don't like KJV,
but for sake argument...)

This verse, is often associated with Mary, as this "seed" is of the "woman" (Eve), and
though the KJV uses the pronoun "it", FOUR notable men in history have translated/–
–/interpreted the pronoun as "SHE":

- Titus Flavius Josephus – *1st Cent*
- Philo Judaeus –––––––– *1st Cent*
- Saint Jerome –––––––––- 5th Cent
- Moses Maimonides ––– 12th Cent

But this hasn't been shown at all. You keep saying it, but you've provided no quotes from any of them. In fact, I quoted Josephus saying "they".

Jerome was modeling the verse on Mariology, on Papal notions I'd guess. I'd assume Maimonides is an assumption passed around the internet without any basis, without a quote from him.

Again, even NewAdvent tells us the "she" translation is spurious.
 
Upvote 0

Standing Up

On and on
Sep 3, 2008
25,360
2,757
Around about
✟73,735.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Standing Up, Listen to Tertullian who lived in the 200’s A.D. . . .

"God recovered His image and likeness, which the devil had seized,
by a rival operation.
For into Eve, as yet a virgin, had crept the word which was the framer of death.
Equally into a virgin was to be introduced the Word of God which was
the builder up of life;
that, what by that sex (gender) had gone into perdition,
by the same sex (gender) might be brought back to salvation.
Eve had believed the serpent;
Mary believed Gabriel;
the fault which the one committed by believing,
the other by believing has blotted out."
Tertullian. De Carn.Christ. 17. Tertullian Died in 240 A.D.

Nothing about Gen. 3:15 and Mary trampling the serpent.
 
Upvote 0

justinangel

Newbie
Feb 19, 2011
1,301
197
Btwn heaven & earth
✟21,449.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Please quote Josephus and Philo re Gen 3:15. (Maimonides is 1000 years too late.)

Josephus (Book 1, Chap. 3) reads:
"It is this way as our translator writes. For he says:
'He ordained that the woman should inflict
wounds on his head.'"

It appears that Josephus in his day read 'aute' ('she') in the Septuagint.

The Jewish philosopher Philo, (c.40 A.D.) argued from the Hebrew poetic technique known as parallelism, that the reading should be 'she.'


The Septuagent vs. Masoretic. Septuagent uses "he". So there goes that false argument also. The seed is Christ


It appears that the Septuagint of Josephus' and Philo's time read aute (she) instead of auto (he).

The Masoretic text is corrupted, as has been shown by the Dead Sea Scrolls. The arbitrary point system is just that - arbitrary. In the third clause the Masoretic text clearly uses the masculine pronoun "he" and the masculine form of the verb. But the pronoun is only identified as masculine by the Masorete marks that were not part of the original text. Without those marks, which were added in the eighth century A.D., the pronoun is generic and could mean he, she, or it. In any event, the masculine pronoun is taken in a collective sense; it does not refer exclusively to the Messiah and includes both righteous males and females of God's chosen people.

"Also hu is often used instead of he especially when there is some emphasis on action and something manly is predicated of the woman, as is the case here with the crushing of the serpent's head...It makes no difference that the verb is masculine yasuph, that is "(he) shall crush," for it often happens in Hebrew that the masculine is used instead of the feminine and vice versa, especially when there is an underlying reason or mystery, as I have just said."
Cornelius A Lapide


The seed is indeed Christ, but God puts the enmity between him and the serpent's seed. The woman is at enmity with the serpent. She crushes the serpent's head with her heel, by giving birth to her offspring. Still the idea of Mary's sinlessness is rooted in her being at enmity with the serpent, notwithstanding who it is that does the actual crushing with their heel. Mary was intimately associated with her Son in God's plan of redemption, and so she was also required to be at total opposition with the serpent by being preserved free from all stain of sin, which the devil wrought by tempting Eve.


"Most blessed of women be Jael,
the wife of Heber the Kenite,
of tent-dwelling women most blessed.
He asked water and she gave him milk,
she brought him curds in a lordly bowl.
She put her hand to the tent peg
and her right hand to the workmen’s mallet;
she struck Sisera a blow,
she crushed his head,
she shattered and pierced his temple.”

He sank, he fell,
he lay still at her feet;
at her feet he sank, he fell;
where he sank, there he fell dead."


Judges 5, 24-27 (cf. Judith 13: 18-20)



PAX
:angel:
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Standing Up

On and on
Sep 3, 2008
25,360
2,757
Around about
✟73,735.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Josephus (Book 1, Chap. 3) reads:
"It is this way as our translator writes. For he says:
'He ordained that the woman should inflict
wounds on his head.'"

It appears that Josephus in his day read 'aute' ('she') in the Septuagint.

The Jewish philosopher Philo, (c.40 A.D.) argued from the Hebrew poetic technique known as parallelism, that the reading should be 'she.'

Again, provide the actual quote and the actual source. I looked through B1 C3 and found nothing. It may by B1 C1 (Antiquities), but it says this:

" Besides this, he [God] inserted poison under his [serpent] tongue, and made him an enemy to men; and suggested to them, that they should direct their strokes against his head, that being the place wherein lay his mischievous designs towards men, and it being easiest to take vengeance on him, that way. "
Chapter 1 - Bible Study Tools

So, Josephus translates it "they". Again though, we wouldn't expect Josephus to translate it in Messianic terms.

PS. Please note how to do what I've asked. Quote it and provide the source link. Thanks.
 
Upvote 0