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Immaculate conception of Mary?

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barryatlake

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You are off on both of your explanations. those verses do not say 'all' that is needed. nowhere in the bible does it preach bible alone or sola Scriptura, nowhere does it say 'churches' . and nowhere does it say blessed Mary ever had a consummated marriage to Joseph, Joseph was a guardian of Jesus. Mary was" married" to the Holy Spirit only, ''in the eyes of God"but not in the eyes of modern day Protestants
 
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mmksparbud

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You are off on both of your explanations. those verses do not say 'all' that is needed. nowhere in the bible does it preach bible alone or sola Scriptura, nowhere does it say 'churches' . and nowhere does it say blessed Mary ever had a consummated marriage to Joseph, Joseph was a guardian of Jesus. Mary was" married" to the Holy Spirit only, ''in the eyes of God"but not in the eyes of modern day Protestants

(2Ti 3:15) And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

They are able save us--that is all that is needed. It's fine to get the thoughts and opinions of others, but it is the bible that teaches us how to be saved, not the thoughts of others. What is said, needs to be verified by the scriptures.



(Isa 8:20) To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.


Nowhere does it say that she was forever a virgin, nor sinless.
 
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Albion

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Every Protestant calls Mary blessed, just not forever virgin or sinless. That has already been explained above. And like I said, which you obviously did not read

Ooh, I wouldn't say that. It's all been read, but there is nothing else left in the ol' denominational playbook, so they're relegated to just repeating themselves as though the claims hadn't already been disproved.
 
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barryatlake

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Albion,the Holy Spirit overshadowed only Mary [ no other woman since ] and caused our Savior to be conceived within Mary because God had already prepared Mary for motherhood by filling Mary with His grace. Thus, Mary is "blessed among women" not just in her motherhood but in the preparation for motherhood that she received. Mary would not be able to hold up to the words: "for all generations shall call me blessed'' if she had later sinned. All generations can call her virgin and sinless. Mary was and still is the mother of Our Lord and being that Jesus is our Spiritual Brother and Savior ,Mary is also our spiritual mother and deserves the recognition given to her "perpetually" by God the Father.
 
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mmksparbud

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No one is even remotely saying that Mary is not "blessed"--She is the one and only Mother to the Son of God!! This has been stated over and over . You can't do better than that!!!! And no matter what, nothing could ever strip her of that. But she was not holy before Jesus was in her. It was the presence of Christ in her that made her holy. She didn't have to be sinless for it is Christ that saves, not her. As has been said, Christ could stand in a sewer and it would become holy. It is Him, not her that is sinless and perfect. He didn't need her to be sinless, it is the presence of God, the Holy Spirit, Christ that transforms a mountain into a holy place---It was God that made the mountain on which He stood holy. Moses took off his sandals at the burning bush, for the place was holy--but it hadn't been before God got there, and who knows how many people have walked over that spot by now--it is no longer holy because He is not there. But it would still be revered. Just as everywhere they think Christ walked is special, but not pure now. It didn't have to be before or after He was there.
 
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bbbbbbb

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No one is even remotely saying that Mary is not "blessed"--She is the one and only Mother to the Son of God!! This has been stated over and over . You can't do better than that!!!! And no matter what, nothing could ever strip her of that. But she was not holy before Jesus was in her. It was the presence of Christ in her that made her holy. She didn't have to be sinless for it is Christ that saves, not her. As has been said, Christ could stand in a sewer and it would become holy. It is Him, not her that is sinless and perfect. He didn't need her to be sinless, it is the presence of God, the Holy Spirit, Christ that transforms a mountain into a holy place---It was God that made the mountain on which He stood holy. Moses took off his sandals at the burning bush, for the place was holy--but it hadn't been before God got there, and who knows how many people have walked over that spot by now--it is no longer holy because He is not there. But it would still be revered. Just as everywhere they think Christ walked is special, but not pure now. It didn't have to be before or after He was there.

As Albion has pointed out, I will repreat, that we are seeing the typical Catholic playbook in action here. When you dare to suggest that one of their Marian dogmas (which no other Christians subscribe to) just might not be dogmatic, you get accused of hating Mary because you don't refer to her as the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God, Co-Redemptrix, Immaculately Conceived, etc., etc. then you HATE Mary and are to be condemned in hell forever.
 
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mmksparbud

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Albion,the Holy Spirit overshadowed only Mary [ no other woman since ] and caused our Savior to be conceived within Mary because God had already prepared Mary for motherhood by filling Mary with His grace. Thus, Mary is "blessed among women" not just in her motherhood but in the preparation for motherhood that she received. Mary would not be able to hold up to the words: "for all generations shall call me blessed'' if she had later sinned. All generations can call her virgin and sinless. Mary was and still is the mother of Our Lord and being that Jesus is our Spiritual Brother and Savior ,Mary is also our spiritual mother and deserves the recognition given to her "perpetually" by God the Father.



"God filled Mary with His grace" means she was sinless??? There are 159 verses in the bible with the word grace---I can list them if needed--Noah, Abraham, Joseph, Jacob, Ruth, countless others are all said to have God's grace--were they sinless??
 
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MrMoe

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mmksparbud, what I meant is why don't you follow the Bible in everything it tells us, isn't it appropriate to write or verbally call Mary "blessed Mary" when the bible tell us to do so?

Barry, you do realize that Mary is not the only one in the bible who was blessed, right?

I'm guessing you're talking about Luke 1:48. Sorry but Mary was simply making a self conscious statement that she knew she be called blessed by all generations, it is not a commandment. Mary would have no idea at that point what would be written down about her life, let alone what she said. So it seems pretty silly to think that Mary is talking to the reader here telling them to call her blessed every time you say her name.

Also the bible say Abraham is blessed, so are all believers. So if you call Mary blessed you're going to have to do the same for everyone the bible calls blessed.

When was the last time you or any other Protestant ever called Mary blessed and why not?

All protestants call Mary blessed. Same way we call Abraham and all believers blessed.

As Albion has pointed out, I will repreat, that we are seeing the typical Catholic playbook in action here. When you dare to suggest that one of their Marian dogmas (which no other Christians subscribe to) just might not be dogmatic, you get accused of hating Mary because you don't refer to her as the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God, Co-Redemptrix, Immaculately Conceived, etc., etc. then you HATE Mary and are to be condemned in hell forever.

:thumbsup:

"God filled Mary with His grace" means she was sinless??? There are 159 verses in the bible with the word grace---I can list them if needed--Noah, Abraham, Joseph, Jacob, Ruth, countless others are all said to have God's grace--were they sinless??

It's a false dichotomy they have created (Full of grace = No sin). They seem to treat grace like it is something tangible that can take up space, when grace just means favor/kindness in the NT. Something which is non tangible.


I can create a false dichotomy too:
John the Baptist was filled with the holy spirit from his mothers womb. The holy spirit cannot sin because it is from God therefore John the Baptist had no sin. I just created a false dichotomy.
 
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justinangel

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Why is YOUR private interpretation to be trusted, then? Mine at least is based upon relevant information.

My interpretation is the Church's interpretation expressed in my own words. I have 2000 years of Christian tradition behind me - not my own biased personal judgment.


You know, that kind of nonsense -- "I'm a Roman Catholic (or name your preferred denomination), so I can't be wrong" -- doesn't really make a dent with thinking people. It just signals that the speaker hasn't any factual information to contribute.

The Catholic Church is the early Church, as I have shown by citing the Church Fathers. What you wish to believe relying on your reasoning can't ever be established as a fact, since it is alien to the teachings of the Church from the beginning under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The most you can do is object to Catholic teaching, nothing more. Heck, Protestants can't even agree as to whether a child below the age of reason ought to be baptized or gay couples ought to receive the sacrament of Holy Matrimony. Seems like you can't get your "facts" straight. Why? Because you don't have 2000 years of sacred Tradition behind you.

PAX
:angel:
 
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justinangel

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The KJV is a mistranslation--even if that were true--The JBS is written as "they" and "their"--and even if it read "she"---there is still no mention of a forever virgin or sinlessness. And to have some "Brother" decide that the Jewish translation is wrong is really bazaar--you'd think they would know their own language a whole lot better than any "Brother"--no matter how many Jewish classes he took!! When does "highly favored" become forever virgin, or "full of grace" become sinless birth and a sinless life?!!!

Brother Thomas cites Cornelius 'A Lapide. the late Catholic biblical and Hebrew scholar. As he points out in his work, there are other Jewish versions that read "she". And Jewish scholars like Dr. Yuri Josef reject the "it" and "they" translations.


(Lev 20:25) Ye shall therefore put difference between clean beasts and unclean, and between unclean fowls and clean: and ye shall not make your souls abominable by beast, or by fowl, or by any manner of living thing that creepeth on the ground, which I have separated from you as unclean.

(Lev 20:26) And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the LORD am holy, and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine.

Where is the mention of a sinless virgin here?? These verses are talking about the people of Israel and what they should or should not do. Certainly not about any one individual! None of these verses have a single thing to do with Mary--not a single one!! "Stretching it" is putting it very, very, very mildly! This is no proof of anything except the far fetched ideas of some man many eons after the fact!! I was expecting a lot more than this.

Obviously Luke presents Mary as the personification of Daughter Zion, God's chaste and faithful bride. The first part of Mary's Canticle of Praise mirrors OT passages about Zion. Israel and Mary identify with each other. You'll miss the typology by not reading Scripture in the spiritual sense. The first Christians were Jewish converts in Palestine. Luke is acknowledging a Marian tradition that had existed before he wrote his gospel (cf. Lk 1:1-4) which serves to confirm what was traditionally held by the nascent Church. Scripture proceeds from Tradition. It always has, and it always will as the objective rule of faith. Apart from Tradition and the custody of the Church, the Bible is no longer an infallible guide. Human reasoning alone in an independent and personal capacity can never facilitate the transmission of the divine truth through the written word.

Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked. “How can I,” he said, “unless someone explains it to me?” So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.
Acts 8, 30-31


“Of the dogmas and messages preserved in the Church, some we possess from written teaching and others we receive from the tradition of the apostles, handed on to us in mystery. In respect to piety, both are of the same force. No one will contradict any of these, no one, at any rate, who is even moderately versed in matters ecclesiastical. Indeed, were we to try to reject unwritten customs as having no great authority, we would unwittingly injure the gospel in its vitals; or rather, we would reduce [Christian] message to a mere term”
Basil the Great, The Holy Spirit 27:66 [A.D. 375]

“It is needful also to make use of tradition, for not everything can be gotten from sacred Scripture. The holy apostles handed down some things in the scriptures, other things in tradition”
Epiphanius of Salamis, Medicine Chest Against All Heresies 61:6 [A.D. 375]


PAX
:angel:
 
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Albion

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My interpretation is the Church's interpretation expressed in my own words.

Then I would ask you not to assume that I just "thought up" what I've expressed here, with no reference to church teachings, church history, Bible scholars and scholarship, etc. That is deliberately insulting to do.

You like to say that the other person's POV is "personal interpretation" when the truth is that your approach and my approach are very similar except for the obvious--you have determined IMO to believe whatever your church tells you to believe at the moment, while I draw upon the entirety of the Christian experience, or try to do so.

Why? Because you don't have 2000 years of sacred Tradition behind you.

But you don't have it behind you. You merely lay claim to whatever your denomination tells you it is!

Every well-educated member of the reformed churches is just as aware of the breadth and depth of Christian history as are the members of the unreformed churches. But again, the difference is that we do not comb through it and sort out the parts that do not support a predetermined set of beliefs and practices.
 
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Standing Up

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First of all, the KJV is a mistranslation.

" The translation "she" of the Vulgate is interpretative; it originated after the fourth century, and cannot be defended critically. "
-NewAdvent.org-

So, Catholic Encyclopedia is wrong you are saying.
 
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justinangel

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Then I would ask you not to assume that I just "thought up" what I've expressed here, with no reference to church teachings, church history, Bible scholars and scholarship, etc. That is deliberately insulting to do.

Which church teachings and Bible scholars have you referred to? Certainly not the Church Fathers. All you've been doing is objecting and criticizing. Anyway, bible scholars have no divine authority or charismatic aility to define Church doctrines.

You like to say that the other person's POV is "personal interpretation" when the truth is that your approach and my approach are very similar except for the obvious--you have determined IMO to believe whatever your church tells you to believe at the moment, while I draw upon the entirety of the Christian experience, or try to do so.

I leave the interpretation of Scripture to the Magisterium of the Catholic Church in matters of faith and morals. That's how it's always been for faithful Christians since NT time.

The entirety of Christian experience? You're off by at least 1500 years, I'm afraid. My Church has told me from the beginning that Mary was without sin. I've provided plenty of excerpts from the Church Fathers and ample biblical support. I've even provided a list of Protestant scholars and linguists who accept the Catholic interpretation of Luke 1:28 and Jerome's translation of it from the Greek. Mary wasn't simply favoured by God to bear His Son. That's not what Luke meant to write.


But you don't have it behind you. You merely lay claim to whatever your denomination tells you it is!

Who, by the way, founded my "denomination" if it wasn't Christ? :confused:

Every well-educated member of the reformed churches is just as aware of the breadth and depth of Christian history as are the members of the unreformed churches. But again, the difference is that we do not comb through it and sort out the parts that do not support a predetermined set of beliefs and practices.

These so-called educated members deny and reject much that was passed on to us by the Church Fathers because their teachings don't square with their preconceived beliefs and practices derived from studying the Bible divorced from Tradition and historical Christianity, i.e., sola fide., etc. Catholic doctrines aren't predetermined in a vacuum, but have developed over time harmoniously not unlike a living organism. For the first 1000 years there was a broad consensus among the Church Fathers (Greek and Latin) that Mary was without sin. It was just a matter of fully grasping what was meant by that proposition, just as it was in understanding the divine mystery of the hypostatic union of two natures in Christ which took centuries to resolve in Christendom.

And I would like to add this to my series of quotes from a man who highly revered Mary:


"She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin. . . . God's grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil. . . . God is with her, meaning that all she did or left undone is divine and the action of God in her. Moreover, God guarded and protected her from all that might be hurtful to her."
Martin Luther :clap:

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Albion

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Which church teachings and Bible scholars have you referred to? Certainly not the Church Fathers. All you've been doing is objecting and criticizing. Anyway, bible scholars have no divine authority or charismatic aility to define Church doctrines.



I leave the interpretation of Scripture to the Magisterium of the Catholic Church in matters of faith and morals. That's how it's always been for faithful Christians since NT time.

The entirety of Christian experience? You're off by at least 1500 years, I'm afraid. My Church has told me from the beginning that Mary was without sin. I've provided plenty of excerpts from the Church Fathers and ample biblical support. I've even provided a list of Protestant scholars and linguists who accept the Catholic interpretation of Luke 1:28 and Jerome's translation of it from the Greek. Mary wasn't simply favoured by God to bear His Son. That's not what Luke meant to write.




Who, by the way, founded my "denomination" if it wasn't Christ? :confused:



These so-called educated members deny and reject much that was passed on to us by the Church Fathers because their teachings don't square with their preconceived beliefs and practices derived from studying the Bible divorced from Tradition and historical Christianity, i.e., sola fide., etc. Catholic doctrines aren't predetermined in a vacuum, but have developed over time harmoniously not unlike a living organism. For the first 1000 years there was a broad consensus among the Church Fathers (Greek and Latin) that Mary was without sin. It was just a matter of fully grasping what was meant by that proposition, just as it was in understanding the divine mystery of the hypostatic union of two natures in Christ which took centuries to resolve in Christendom.

And I would like to add this to my series of quotes from a man who highly revered Mary:


"She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin. . . . God's grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil. . . . God is with her, meaning that all she did or left undone is divine and the action of God in her. Moreover, God guarded and protected her from all that might be hurtful to her."
Martin Luther :clap:

PAX
:angel:

Everything that I've read above might as well have been you reading your RCIA notes back to me.

I am interested having in an exchange of ideas, but that requires the other person to bring something worthwhile to the table.

I can get memorized punch lines, dubious claims, and boasts from any number of websites online. For that matter, I can get more than enough of that on the Unorthodox Theological Discussion forum here. :wave:
 
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justinangel

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Everything that I've read above might as well have been you reading your RCIA notes back to me.

I am interested having in an exchange of ideas, but that requires the other person to bring something worthwhile to the table.

I can get memorized punch lines, dubious claims, and boasts from any number of websites online. For that matter, I can get more than enough of that on the Unorthodox Theological Discussion forum here. :wave:

I have been presenting ideas, whereas the best you have presented are wisecracks. The truth is you have no theological argument against the IC other than it's a "myth" or a "dubious claim" which is not worth my time in our debate. By the way, I'm not a convert to the RC Church.

PAX
:angel:
 
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justinangel

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" The translation "she" of the Vulgate is interpretative; it originated after the fourth century, and cannot be defended critically. "
-NewAdvent.org-

So, Catholic Encyclopedia is wrong you are saying.

New Advent does present speculative items. There is no conclusive evidence whatsoever that Jerome's translation was marred by a copyist error. There are many more conservative Catholic scholars like Cornelius A Lapide who believe that Jerome chose the female pronoun, which can be found in some Jewish texts. It's a matter of interpretation and putting things into theological perspective.

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Standing Up

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New Advent does present speculative items. There is no conclusive evidence whatsoever that Jerome's translation was marred by a copyist error. There are many more conservative Catholic scholars like Cornelius A Lapide who believe that Jerome chose the female pronoun, which can be found in some Jewish texts. It's a matter of interpretation and putting things into theological perspective.

PAX
:angel:

From where many sit, it appears the various translations of "she" came about as a result of Mariology in RC. The site who has the axe to grind (NewAdvent.org) differs from your RC interpretation.

For my part, I'll stick to what the apostolic church founded by Christ teaches.
 
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justinangel

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From where many sit, it appears the various translations of "she" came about as a result of Mariology in RC. The site who has the axe to grind (NewAdvent.org) differs from your RC interpretation.

There were two Hebrew codices in the Vatican library that read "she" ( Kennicott numbers 227 and 239) and another in the Bernard de Rossi library. Also in the same library was an Onkelosi Codex [ a translation from the Hebrew into Aramaic] which read "she", according to Lapide in the 17th century. This is from the Haydock Catholic Commentary on the Old Testament, Genesis 3:15: "The Hebrew text, as Bellarmine observes, is ambiguous: He mentions one copy which had ipsa (she) instead of ipsum (it); and so it is even printed in the Hebrew interlineary edition, 1572, by Plantin, under the inspection of Boderianus." These Hebrew texts weren't translated by Roman Catholics. :doh:

For my part, I'll stick to what the apostolic church founded by Christ teaches.

Which church would that be? I've lost count. :D

PAX
:angel:
 
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bbbbbbb

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There were two Hebrew codices in the Vatican library that read "she" ( Kennicott numbers 227 and 239) and another in the Bernard de Rossi library. Also in the same library was an Onkelosi Codex [ a translation from the Hebrew into Aramaic] which read "she", according to Lapide in the 17th century. This is from the Haydock Catholic Commentary on the Old Testament, Genesis 3:15: "The Hebrew text, as Bellarmine observes, is ambiguous: He mentions one copy which had ipsa (she) instead of ipsum (it); and so it is even printed in the Hebrew interlineary edition, 1572, by Plantin, under the inspection of Boderianus." These Hebrew texts weren't translated by Roman Catholics.

Which church would that be? I've lost count.

PAX
:angel:

I am sorry that you have lost count. I assume that you no longer consider your own to be one of them.
 
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Standing Up

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There were two Hebrew codices in the Vatican library that read "she" ( Kennicott numbers 227 and 239) and another in the Bernard de Rossi library. Also in the same library was an Onkelosi Codex [ a translation from the Hebrew into Aramaic] which read "she", according to Lapide in the 17th century. This is from the Haydock Catholic Commentary on the Old Testament, Genesis 3:15: "The Hebrew text, as Bellarmine observes, is ambiguous: He mentions one copy which had ipsa (she) instead of ipsum (it); and so it is even printed in the Hebrew interlineary edition, 1572, by Plantin, under the inspection of Boderianus." These Hebrew texts weren't translated by Roman Catholics. :doh:

This is just more of the same commentary without proof. Like we found Josephus saying "they", not "she" or "it", contrary to some claims.

FYI, Mariology stuff existed far back, even to PoJames (not scripture), long before Vatican.


Which church would that be? I've lost count. :D

PAX
:angel:

We're talking.
 
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