Immaculate conception of Mary?

[justinangel]

Justinangel,

If I may..... this thread is not about the Perpetual Virginity of Mary. It's about the new, UNIQUE dogma of one denomination (the RCC) that Mary was specifically CONCEIVED within the womb of her mother WITHOUT the "stain" of ORIGINAL SIN. As a matter of dogmatic fact of highest importance possible and greatest certainty of fact possible impacting the salvation of souls. THAT's the issue before us. Each part of that.

Kindly return to my post to see that I haven't written about the Perpetual Virginity of Mary.

PAX

 

[Albion]

Obviously you and I have different conceptions about what the Church is. You won't find theologians, scholars, and linguists deciding what is to be believed in the nascent and early Church.

So you do not actually think that Holy Tradition plays any role in Roman Catholic doctrine. That's interesting, to say the least.

Dogma makes clear what we should believe as it has been revealed by God through His Church.

That is to repeat essentially what I wrote. Your contention is that the church can make any legend or myth or theory into dogma simply by invoking a power it claims for itself, the merits of the dogma (which most people would justify by reference to history, scripture, or tradition) are immaterial to the decision to dogmatize whatever it is.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

It's because of the Divine Maternity that Mary was immaculately conceived.

Interesting.... because while the EOC and Lutherans and Anglicans all agree in Divine Maternity, none of them have the dogma that all (but you) are discussing - the issue of this thread. That specific dogma is UNIQUE to the singular EC Denomination (1950). Thus, I find your mandated "connection" to be incredible.




Back to the issue of this thread.....








.

 

[Albion]

That's correct. There really is no connection. A non-virgin could have been chosen by God to be the mother of Christ and there's no particular reason to think that being a virgin, or being a mother OTOH, makes one sinless from the moment of conception!

 

[Standing Up]

" SUPREME REASON FOR THE PRIVILEGE: THE DIVINE MATERNITY

'And indeed it was wholly fitting that so wonderful a mother should be ever resplendent with the glory of most sublime holiness and so completely free from all taint of original sin that she would triumph utterly over the ancient serpent. "
Ineffabilis Deus

One reason for the dogma is supposedly to prove her utter triumph over the serpent. Here's NIV and Douay Rheims

NIV: And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."

DR: I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

Notice the pronoun change about who does the crushing? Christ or Mary. Notice also that Christ is struck (blemished?) by the serpent. Mary, however, remains unscathed.

Short step to the fifth dogma ...

 

[justinangel]

There's no need to talk that way. Most of your lengthy post was just a statement--one that was not requested, by the way--of what your church's belief is. It didn't offer much of anything in the way of a justification for that stance. And much of it was off topic, as it did not deal with the idea of the Immaculate Conception but was about something else relating to Mary.

There's no need for you to be so argumentative and apparently hostile all the time. My post was a reply to yours - one that you simply don't want to hear. It certainly had everything to do with the IC and showed why all Christians should accept this doctrine, not merely because we have to out of obedience to the Magisterium. And if anyone else is going to cut into my reply to your conjectures, he should at least understand what I am saying before taking a rhetorical leap. Clearly I wasn't talking about the Perpetual Virginity of Mary.

PAX

 

[Albion]

o need for you to be so argumentative and apparently hostile all the time. My post was a reply to yours - one that you simply don't want to hear.

And who was the one who posted this gem ?

It certainly had everything to do with the IC and showed why all Christians should accept this doctrine, not merely because we have to out of obedience to the Magisterium.

If so, you'll have to show it to be so, or at least some logic to it. It's no good just to insist upon it. I'll add that I'm not the only one who found it to be not on target.

And if anyone else is going to cut into my reply to your conjectures, he should at least understand what I am saying before taking a rhetorical leap. Clearly I wasn't talking about the Perpetual Virginity of Mary. [/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]

That pretty much reads like an admission that you didn't make your point very well.

 

[justinangel]

That's correct. There really is no connection. A non-virgin could have been chosen by God to be the mother of Christ....

"And I will betroth you to me forever;
I will betroth you to me in righteousness and in justice, and in love, and in mercy.
I will betroth you to me in faithfulness; and you shall know the Lord."
Hosea 2:19-20

Mary is prefigured by Israel - God's chaste and faithful virgin bride, Daughter Zion. In the divine scheme of things a non-virgin would have incurred a blemish in God's design.

Mystically the relationship between God and Mary was redolent of a marriage just as the relationship between YHWH and Israel was. The OT frequently depicts Israel as God's bride, who is expected to be pure and chaste in her nuptial relationship with Him, faithful and loving. It is God who espouses Israel, removing her from her lowly origin, her fornication and prostitution, and purifying her to be His worthy spouse. In Mary's canticle of praise in the Gospel of Luke, 1:46-49, the evangelist portrays Mary as the personification of Daughter Zion, God's faithful and chaste bride, specially prepared by God to bring the Messiah into the world. For this reason Israel was required to be a holy people separated from the people of the surrounding nations. And her marriage covenant with God stood on Israel's steadfastness in love for Him above all other things. 'You shall be holy to me; for I the Lord am holy, and have separated you from the peoples, that you should be mine' (Lev. 20:26).

In the OT, Israel is called an adulteress and a harlot for having unfaithfully worshipped the pagan gods of her neighbours and putting their idols above God. 'She saw that for all the adulteries of that faithless one, Israel, I had sent her away with a decree of divorce; yet her false sister Judah did not fear, but she too went and played the harlot' (Jer. 3, 8). Israel was God's own possession. She belonged exclusively to Him by way of a covenant. Similarly, Mary was God's own possession and belonged exclusively to Him. The "power of the Most High (resuth) overshadowed" her. Mary would have been an unfaithful bride to God if she renounced her covenant with Him by having sinned out of an inordinate self-love. But Mary's soul "magnified the Lord" and proclaimed His glory. Their was no room for idols in the fabric of her being. God always was her first love, and so she renounced all her natural and maternal rights in her covenant with God for His sake alone and in keeping with His precepts. Mary personified the true Israel in the spirit by keeping God's laws firmly set in her heart and mind. It was because God desired to have a faithful and chaste spouse for Himself, separated from all the other Jewish women and the conventions of their people, that He sent the angel to a very young virgin whom He had prepared by His grace to be the mother of His only-Begotten Son.

Sing aloud, O daughter of Zion;
shout, O Israel!
Rejoice and exult with all your heart,
O daughter of Jerusalem!

The Lord has taken away the judgments against you,
he has cast out your enemies.
The King of Israel, the Lord, is in your midst;
you shall fear evil no more.

On that day it shall be said to Jerusalem:
“Do not fear, O Zion;
let not your hands grow weak.

The Lord your God is in your midst,
a warrior who gives victory;
he will rejoice over you with gladness,
he will renew you[a] in his love;
he will exult over you with loud singing.
Zephaniah 3, 14-17

Keeping with the Apostolic Tradition of the Church, Irenaeus equated Mary's virginity and chastity with her sinlessness when in the 2nd century he wrote: ""Consequently, then, Mary the Virgin is found to be obedient, saying, ‘Behold, O Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me according to your word.’ Eve, however, was disobedient, and, when yet a virgin, she did not obey." [A.H. lll.22.24]. The ECF believed that Mary gave birth without pain. Pain in childbearing, however, is a penalty of original sin (cf. Gen. 3:16). Unlike Eve who sinned, Mary was not under this penalty."Again, there are those who say, “He is a man, and who shall know him?” and, “I came unto the prophetess, and she bore a son, and His name is called Wonderful, Counsellor, the Mighty God;” and those [of them] who proclaimed Him as Immanuel, [born] of the Virgin, exhibited the union of the Word of God with His own workmanship, [declaring] that the Word should become flesh, and the Son of God the Son of man (the pure One opening purely that pure womb which regenerates men unto God, and which He Himself made pure); and having become this which we also are, He [nevertheless] is the Mighty God, and possesses a generation which cannot be declared." [A.H. lV.33.11]

... and there's no particular reason to think that being a virgin, or being a mother OTOH, makes one sinless from the moment of conception!

Mary was no ordinary mother. She didn't give birth to Abel or Noah, who prefigure Christ as types of the new Adam.

"Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb."
Luke 1, 42

The NAB explicitly acknowledges the Hebraism 'Blessed are you above all women' (cf. Jael and Judith, who prefigure Mary). The greatest blessing for any mother is surely bearing and giving birth to Christ.

PAX

 

[justinangel]

And who was the one who posted this gem ?




Look, I have responded to your points and your non-points in the expectation that you'd get on topic and not just recite selections from the catechism or the Catholic Encyclopedia in place of a real exchange of ideas. But I can't make anyone do that.


If so, you'll have to show it to be so, or at least some logic to it. It's no good just to insist upon it. I'll add that I'm not the only one who found it to be not on target.


That pretty much reads like an admission that you didn't make your point very well.

How you love to quibble. I can't help it if there are people who are in a state of denial. I've explained the Catholic position on this topic clearly and reasonably. I think I'll ignore such comments of yours like these, since their nothing but vain rambling. Let's stick to theology, shall we? Or don't you have a counter argument?

PAX

 

[mmksparbud]

I got these quotes from the following link-- I just copied the 1st sentence under "Proof from scripture" and some of the "Proof from Tradition." Didn't copy the whole thing just the parts I found interesting. This is a Catholic website.



CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Immaculate Conception



Proof from Scripture

Genesis 3:15

No direct or categorical and stringent proof of the dogma can be brought forward from Scripture


Proof from Tradition

In regard to the sinlessness of Mary the older Fathers are very cautious: some of them even seem to have been in error on this matter.
•Origen, although he ascribed to Mary high spiritual prerogatives, thought that, at the time of Christ's passion, the sword of disbelief pierced Mary's soul; that she was struck by the poniard of doubt; and that for her sins also Christ died (Origen, "In Luc. hom. xvii").
•In the same manner St. Basil writes in the fourth century: he sees in the sword, of which Simeon speaks, the doubt which pierced Mary's soul (Epistle 260).
•St. Chrysostom accuses her of ambition, and of putting herself forward unduly when she sought to speak to Jesus at Capharnaum (Matthew 12:46; Chrysostom, Homily 44 on Matthew).

But these stray private opinions merely serve to show that theology is a progressive science. If we were to attempt to set forth the full doctrine of the Fathers on the sanctity of the Blessed Virgin, which includes particularly the implicit belief in the immaculateness of her conception, we should be forced to transcribe a multitude of passages. In the testimony of the Fathers two points are insisted upon: her absolute purity and her position as the second Eve (cf. 1 Corinthians 15:22).


I did not copy the Pope Pius IX Dec 8. 1854 article--those interested can search it--but am I understanding correctly that this teaching did not become dogma until 1854??


Edit to recopy the link--it disappeared--

http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_pi09id.htm

 

[Standing Up]

" "and I will put enmity between thee and the woman and her seed; she (he) shall crush thy head and thou shalt lie in wait for her (his) heel" (Genesis 3:15). The translation "she" of the Vulgate is interpretative; it originated after the fourth century, and cannot be defended critically. "
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Immaculate Conception

It's not like they hide it. They are very upfront and clear that their dogma is based on a scriptural mistranslation. "She" rather than "he". As if their Magisterium is superior to God-breathed scripture.

The real question is why folks go along? What's the fear?

 

[justinangel]

I got these quotes from the following link-- I just copied the 1st sentence under "Proof from scripture" and some of the "Proof from Tradition." Didn't copy the whole thing just the parts I found interesting. This is a Catholic website.



CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Immaculate Conception



Proof from Scripture

Genesis 3:15

No direct or categorical and stringent proof of the dogma can be brought forward from Scripture


Proof from Tradition

In regard to the sinlessness of Mary the older Fathers are very cautious: some of them even seem to have been in error on this matter.
•Origen, although he ascribed to Mary high spiritual prerogatives, thought that, at the time of Christ's passion, the sword of disbelief pierced Mary's soul; that she was struck by the poniard of doubt; and that for her sins also Christ died (Origen, "In Luc. hom. xvii").
•In the same manner St. Basil writes in the fourth century: he sees in the sword, of which Simeon speaks, the doubt which pierced Mary's soul (Epistle 260).
•St. Chrysostom accuses her of ambition, and of putting herself forward unduly when she sought to speak to Jesus at Capharnaum (Matthew 12:46; Chrysostom, Homily 44 on Matthew).

But these stray private opinions merely serve to show that theology is a progressive science. If we were to attempt to set forth the full doctrine of the Fathers on the sanctity of the Blessed Virgin, which includes particularly the implicit belief in the immaculateness of her conception, we should be forced to transcribe a multitude of passages. In the testimony of the Fathers two points are insisted upon: her absolute purity and her position as the second Eve (cf. 1 Corinthians 15:22).


I did not copy the Pope Pius IX Dec 8. 1854 article--those interested can search it--but am I understanding correctly that this teaching did not become dogma until 1854??

Correct. But the Feast of the Immaculate Conception was established by Pope Sixtus lV in 1476, which put an end to theological debate.

PAX

 

[mmksparbud]

Correct. But the Feast of the Immaculate Conception was established by Pope Sixtus lV in 1476, which put an end to theological debate.

PAX

And that is how long after the birth of Jesus??? Which should settle the question about how the "early fathers" and disciples all agreed about her sinlessness. In that 1st sentence they state the truth--there is no scriptural proof for their stand--it is tradition only and that tradition didn't get "settled" until 1476 and did not officially become dogma until 1854. I know this will not matter to those who wish to believe this teaching.

 

[justinangel]

I agree (although I think it's DOGMA now, not just doctrine). So...


1. Please list all the Scriptures that confirm Mary - specifically - was "free from the stain of ORIGINAL SIN from the moment of her conception in the womb of her mother."

That would be a long list and a time consuming endeavour. In Luke 1, however, the Immaculate Conception is implicitly revealed in the typology of Mary and the Ark of the Covenant (cf. 2 Book of Samuel). Anyway, the terms 'incarnation' and 'hypostatic union' aren't explicitly mentioned in the NT either, but these doctrines are implicitly revealed.

2. Please quote any or all of the 12-14 Apostles stating such.

Please quote where Paul says that Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary. The apostles did not write down explicitly everything they preached orally, and what they did preach at this time was primarily Christological. I'm sure they didn't even grasp all of the implications of original sin which developed over time and would be required of them to understand in order to contemplate the Immaculate Conception.

3. Please quote any from the First Century specifically stating such.

The Didache is an extant 1st century document which represents mostly the churches of the initial Jewish converts more than it does the Gentile churches. It had served to give practical guidelines for administering baptism, fasting, praying, and the celebration of the Lord's Supper (Holy Eucharist). There is no reason why Marian teachings should be included.

Likewise, the Epistle of Barnabas was written primarily for the Hebrew Christians to stress the superiority of the New Covenant to the Old Covenant. So naturally there is nothing about Mary there with Christ being the centre of attention as mediator of the New Covenant.

However, there is extant literature which implies a nascent belief in Mary's exemption from the stain of original sin. This doctrine is rudimentarily treated by Paul in his letters.

'The report concerning the child was noised abroad in Bethlehem. Some said, ‘The Virgin Mary has given birth before she was married two months.’ And many said, ‘She has not given birth; the midwife has not gone up to her, and we heard no cries of pain.'
Ascension of Isaiah 11 [A.D. 70]

"So the Virgin became a mother with great mercies. And she labored and bore the Son, but without pain, because it did not occur without purpose. And she did not seek a midwife, because he caused her to give life. She bore as a strong man, with will . . . "
Odes of Solomon 19 [A.D. 80]

If you have nothing confirming this in the words of Scripture, the Apostles or anyone from the Apostolic Age, do you at least have something from one of the 7 Ecumenical Councils stating she was CONCEIVED without the STAIN of ORIGINAL SIN? The Dogma.

Perhaps one of the councils would have treated this question if a heresy arose that Jesus was sinful in his human nature like his mother. The dogma of Mary, Mother of God, was formulated to reaffirm the traditional orthodox teaching of Jesus being the God-man. All the Marian doctrines are Christ-centred.

If you have NOTHING from Scripture, from the Apostles, from the Apostolic Age, from the Ecumenical Councils specifically stating what is the dogma, do you at least have a consensus of all "fathers" in the early church (before 311 AD)?

Don't expect any Church teaching to be specific or fully explicit until it has been dogmatically defined.

"Jesus became man by the Virgin so that the course which was taken by disobedience in the beginning through the agency of the serpent might be also the very course by which it would be put down. Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent and bore disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her..."
Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho 100 [155 A.D]

"Consequently, then, Mary the Virgin is found to be obedient, saying, ‘Behold, O Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me according to your word.’ Eve, however, was disobedient, and, when yet a virgin, she did not obey... Thus, the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith."
Irenaeus, Against Heresies 3:22:24 [A.D. 189]

"He [Jesus] was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle [Mary] was exempt from defilement and corruption."
Hippolytus, Orat. In Illud, Dominus pascit me, in Gallandi, Bibl. Patrum, II, 496 ante [A.D. 235]

"This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one."
Origen, Homily 1 [A.D. 244]

PAX

 

[justinangel]

And that is how long after the birth of Jesus??? Which should settle the question about how the "early fathers" and disciples all agreed about her sinlessness. In that 1st sentence they state the truth--there is no scriptural proof for their stand--it is tradition only and that tradition didn't get "settled" until 1476 and did not officially become dogma until 1854. I know this will not matter to those who wish to believe this teaching.

There is plenty of scriptural proof, only it fails to satisfy you for lack of explicitness. The theological speculation about Mary's immaculate conception in the Middle ages concerned an unresolved divine mystery such as the incarnation and the hypostatic union of two natures in Christ which was finally settled after four centuries by the ecumenical councils in accord with sacred Tradition.

PAX

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

....

Mystically the relationship between God and Mary was redolent of a marriage just as the relationship between YHWH and Israel was. The OT frequently depicts Israel as God's bride, who is expected to be pure and chaste in her nuptial relationship with Him, faithful and loving. It is God who espouses Israel, removing her from her lowly origin, her fornication and prostitution, and purifying her to be His worthy spouse. In Mary's canticle of praise in the Gospel of Luke, 1:46-49, the evangelist portrays Mary as the personification of Daughter Zion, God's faithful and chaste bride, specially prepared by God to bring the Messiah into the world. For this reason Israel was required to be a holy people separated from the people of the surrounding nations. And her marriage covenant with God stood on Israel's steadfastness in love for Him above all other things. 'You shall be holy to me; for I the Lord am holy, and have separated you from the peoples, that you should be mine' (Lev. 20:26).

....

This may be the only thing that has ever made the slightest sence to me in Mariolgy .... in what way then do you explain in Gal 4 the New Jerusalem as being our mother? Why did Paul use only that as the example of the mother to the church?

 

[Albion]

There is plenty of scriptural proof, only it fails to satisfy you for lack of explicitness.

...which is another way of saying there isn't any evidence.

 

[justinangel]

[/COLOR]

...which is another way of saying there isn't any evidence.

There's plenty of evidence that God exists, although He doesn't fully reveal Himself to the world as He does to the saints in Heaven. That the sun will set at the same time next year as it does today isn't any evidence of God's existence for the atheist who has no faith.

PAX

 

[Albion]

There's plenty of evidence that God exists, although He doesn't fully reveal Himself to the world as He does to the saints in Heaven.

That's right. And we can prove it by reference to explicit testimony from Scripture. That kind of evidence is absent from the claim that Mary was conceived immaculately.

In the absence of the Bible's witness, we could not prove that a God--and certainly not our God, the only true God--exists, even though nature suggests to us that there is a higher intelligence.

 

[justinangel]

This may be the only thing that has ever made the slightest sence to me in Mariolgy .... in what way then do you explain in Gal 4 the New Jerusalem as being our mother? Why did Paul use only that as the example of the mother to the church?

Paul is referring to the Church as our earthly spiritual mother. Mary is our heavenly spiritual mother.

PAX