Immaculate conception and the Assumption

[Jonathan95]

Hi,

I've been wondering how the immaculate conception can be true, when quotes like these (there are more) indicate that Mary died before her assumption into heaven?:

"St. Juvenal, Bishop of Jerusalem, at the Council of Chalcedon (451), made known to the Emperor Marcian and Pulcheria, who wished to possess the body of the Mother of God, that Mary died in the presence of all the Apostles, but that her tomb, when opened upon the request of St. Thomas, was found empty; wherefrom the Apostles concluded that the body was taken up to heaven." John of Damascene, PG (96:1) (A.D. 747-751).

"[T]he Apostles took up her body on a bier and placed it in a tomb; and they guarded it, expecting the Lord to come. And behold, again the Lord stood by them; and the holy body having been received, He commanded that it be taken in a cloud into paradise: where now, rejoined to the soul, [Mary] rejoices with the Lord's chosen ones..." Gregory of Tours, Eight Books of Miracles, 1:4 (inter A.D. 575-593).


How could Mary die (if she wasn't murdered like Jesus), if she wasn't affected by the fall of Adam and Eve, and/or by personal sin?:

"For the wages of sin is death . . ." Romans 6:23

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" Romans 5:12

 

[AvilaSurfer]

Oy vey.

 

[football5680]

There are some traditions that say Mary died and then at that point was taken bodily into heaven, and others that say she never died at all. The way the doctrine is stated leaves the possibility open for both. The doctrine says that "having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory." Having completed her life could refer to death or simply it was the time to ascend to heaven like Elijah and Enoch without experiencing death.

So now I will answer the question about the immaculate conception from both points of view. If Mary never died and was taken into heaven then there is no need for a further explanation. She was completely without sin so she didn't have to die.

If we say that she did die and then was taken bodily into heaven then she could have chosen that path for herself. Jesus was completely without sin and did not have to die but he chose to. Jesus was not murdered, he chose to sacrifice himself and at any point in time he could have escaped if he wanted to. By saying he was murdered it makes it seem like you are saying it was out of his control and he was forced to die against his will.

"Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then should the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must be so?” (Matthew 26:53-54)

So at the end of her life if we take the position that she did die then it was because she wanted to follow in the footsteps of her Son and Savior.

So it was either the will of God that Mary would never have to experience death or it was the will of Mary who wanted to experience death just as her son did.

 

[ebia]

Hi, I've been wondering how the immaculate conception can be true, when quotes like these (there are more) indicate that Mary died before her assumption into heaven?: "St. Juvenal, Bishop of Jerusalem, at the Council of Chalcedon (451), made known to the Emperor Marcian and Pulcheria, who wished to possess the body of the Mother of God, that Mary died in the presence of all the Apostles, but that her tomb, when opened upon the request of St. Thomas, was found empty; wherefrom the Apostles concluded that the body was taken up to heaven." John of Damascene, PG (96:1) (A.D. 747-751). "[T]he Apostles took up her body on a bier and placed it in a tomb; and they guarded it, expecting the Lord to come. And behold, again the Lord stood by them; and the holy body having been received, He commanded that it be taken in a cloud into paradise: where now, rejoined to the soul, [Mary] rejoices with the Lord's chosen ones..." Gregory of Tours, Eight Books of Miracles, 1:4 (inter A.D. 575-593). How could Mary die (if she wasn't murdered like Jesus), if she wasn't affected by the fall of Adam and Eve, and/or by personal sin?: "For the wages of sin is death . . ." Romans 6:23 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" Romans 5:12

That seems to reflect an extraordinarily individualistic attitude to the consequence of sin.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Hi,

I've been wondering how the immaculate conception can be true, when quotes like these (there are more) indicate that Mary died before her assumption into heaven?:

"St. Juvenal, Bishop of Jerusalem, at the Council of Chalcedon (451), made known to the Emperor Marcian and Pulcheria, who wished to possess the body of the Mother of God, that Mary died in the presence of all the Apostles, but that her tomb, when opened upon the request of St. Thomas, was found empty; wherefrom the Apostles concluded that the body was taken up to heaven." John of Damascene, PG (96:1) (A.D. 747-751).

"[T]he Apostles took up her body on a bier and placed it in a tomb; and they guarded it, expecting the Lord to come. And behold, again the Lord stood by them; and the holy body having been received, He commanded that it be taken in a cloud into paradise: where now, rejoined to the soul, [Mary] rejoices with the Lord's chosen ones..." Gregory of Tours, Eight Books of Miracles, 1:4 (inter A.D. 575-593).


How could Mary die (if she wasn't murdered like Jesus), if she wasn't affected by the fall of Adam and Eve, and/or by personal sin?:

"For the wages of sin is death . . ." Romans 6:23

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" Romans 5:12

The real question is whether her body experienced corruption. Dying and being in the ground would cause such, but dying without going into the ground would not. Being assumed before dying would also not experience corruption.

People often ask the same questions about Jesus. And yet we have the Shroud of Turin, which is a remarkably well-preserved cloth, and bears bodily fluids, but has never corroded.

 

[Jonathan95]

By saying he was murdered it makes it seem like you are saying it was out of his control and he was forced to die against his will.

No, he laid it down by free will (John 10:15, 17). But in a sense one could also say he was also murdered, since it was the Romans who crucified him, and he was innocent?

Thank you for the response.

That seems to reflect an extraordinarily individualistic attitude to the consequence of sin.

What do you mean?

 

[Martinius]

How could Mary die (if she wasn't murdered like Jesus), if she wasn't affected by the fall of Adam and Eve, and/or by personal sin?

As Root of Jesse points out, the Church teaches that by her Immaculate Conception Mary's body would not suffer the "corruption of death", not that she would avoid physical death. Based on your thinking, Jesus could not have died either, and that is obviously not the case. You are confusing different teachings that are not really connected to each other.

Secondly, you are quoting writings from several centuries later than the events described. There are many traditions and stories about what happened to Mary, and these are just some of them. At best they are legends, and there is no hard evidence about what actually happened. Just faith.

 

[Rhamiel]

That seems to reflect an extraordinarily individualistic attitude to the consequence of sin.

let me elaborate on that a bit

Mary was free of personal guilt, she had no sin
but she was born in the world, and still had to put up with the individual evils of the world
sickness, pain, death

similar to, but not exactly like, how baptized babies will still sometimes die
they had original sin forgiven in baptism and they can not make rational choices so they do not have any personal sin, but even though they are innocent, they can still die

 

[ebia]

let me elaborate on that a bit Mary was free of personal guilt, she had no sin but she was born in the world, and still had to put up with the individual evils of the world sickness, pain, death similar to, but not exactly like, how baptized babies will still sometimes die they had original sin forgiven in baptism and they can not make rational choices so they do not have any personal sin, but even though they are innocent, they can still die

Of animals. Or trees.

The biblical picture is of sin bringing death to the whole created order, not my death being a direct punishment for my sin.

 

[Jonathan95]

Ok thank you for the answers