Images

[OracleX]

To Life Immortal

I hope it is ok that I post here; if not, let me know.

In my church, (Eastern Orthodox) we have icons. Icons are flat pictures of Lord Jesus, the Blessed Virgin, a saint or an event in the Church (Easter, Transfigution, etc.) There are no statues in any Orthodox church because of the commandment against graven images. When you enter an Orthodox church, you greet the icons. They are a mirror to the spirituality. I am called to be an icon of Christ as a Christian, to reflect Him in the way I live. Icons are respected for the same reasons a country's flag is: for what it represents.

We have crosses but no 3 dimensional crucifixes. I personally will not wear a crucifix; I think they are gross and I don't believe Lord Jesus is dead anyway. I will wear a three barred Orthodox cross. I wear an ankh now and when I was a Pagan, I wore a Thor's hammer mjolnir ( I was an Asatruar) and a pentagram. I wore those things for protection and to let others know that I was Pagan.

I agree with others here that the cross has been misused as cheap jewelry and as props in Hollywood pictures. That wouldn't or shouldn't stop anyone for wearing one. My motives for wearing cross is to let people know I'm Eastern Orthodox. People will know I'm Christian by my actions.

Peace and Long Life
~*~ Vlinder ~*~

A picture can be used in the exact same way that a statue is used. Just because it is flat or not 3D doesn't mean it can escape from being used as thing that is worshipped.

I personally do not understand the use of the icons you mention. It doesn't make sense to me. What do you mean by greet the icons?

 

[Carrye]

I would like to ask for a point of clarification on your comment.


To whom are you showing your love, reverence and submission?

To God, always, always, always to God. I thank you for your clarifying question.

 

[Gold Dragon]

A picture can be used in the exact same way that a statue is used. Just because it is flat or not 3D doesn't mean it can escape from being used as thing that is worshipped.

I personally do not understand the use of the icons you mention. It doesn't make sense to me. What do you mean by greet the icons?

I agree that pictures, statues and icons are unnecessary and could lead down the road to idolatry if misused, I don't believe that they are wrong, in and of themselves. They are meant as reminders, sort of like how we use poppies to remember veterans, ribbons to remember victims of some disease, flags to remember the values of our country.

On the other hand, we should be careful of repeating the errors of Iconoclasm in the 700s and 800s.

 

[OracleX]

I guess the thing I really don't understand the greet part. Do they say 'hi' to it? What does it mean to greet a icon? It seems different from poppies as I would greet the person wearing the poppy not the poppy itself. This is my confusion.

 

[Carrye]

From ETWN (Beads for the Dead)

One begins and ends this chaplet with the De profundis or an Our Father and Hail Mary. On the large beads is made acts of faith, hope, and charity. On each small bead is said: "Sweet Heart of Mary, be my salvation." Each decade is concluded with: "Eternal rest grant unto them, etc."

I respect you Bleechers, but let's give the whole story. Who is the "Sweet Heart" of Mary? Christ Jesus. And we're not asking Mary to give eternal rest to souls, as the whole prayer goes: "Eternal rest grant unto them O Lord, and let perpetual light shine upon them."

 

[Gold Dragon]

I guess the thing I really don't understand the greet part. Do they say 'hi' to it? What does it mean to greet a icon? It seems different from poppies as I would greet the person wearing the poppy not the poppy itself. This is my confusion.

That is a good question. I'm not too familiar with Orthodox or Catholic practice on this either.

I found this that may help. FAQ: I've heard that the Orthodox worship pictures. Isn't that against the Commandments?

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Then why do Orthodox Christians kiss icons? Isn't that worshipping them?

[font=Arial, Helvetica]To modern Americans, unaccustomed to expressing honor physically, it might look that way. But it's worth noting that this kind of veneration isn't unique to Orthodox Christianity: Many Orthodox Jews kiss the mezuzah on their doorpost as they pass it; they kiss their tallenin, too, as they put them on (Deuteronomy 6:8,9). Orthodox Jews kiss the Torah before reading it in the synagogue, as Jesus must have done. Orthodox Christians likewise kiss the book of the Gospels in reverence when we read it, since it is the premier verbal icon of Christ. (See this Jewish explanation of kissing things in devotion.)[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica]In many cultures outside the Western world, there is nothing strange about bowing to greet someone; in Mediterranean and Slavic cultures it's common to greet friends and honored guests with a hug and kisses on both cheeks, as Scripture repeatedly says, "Greet one another with a holy kiss" [/font][font=Arial, Helvetica](Romans 16:16; 1 Corinthians 16:20; 2 Corinthians 13:12; 1 Thessalonians 5:26)[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]. It's worth speculating as to whether that greeting with a kiss came to Christianity from the hearty Mediterranean cultures, or whether those cultures learned it from the Christians. Either way, culture and spirituality affect one another deeply. Perhaps if we as a Western culture were more in tune with the middle-eastern sensibilities of the New Testament writers, we would have less aversion to honoring one another with kisses and bowing; and then we would be much less put off by the ways in which Christians show honor to other living Christians who are no longer living in the body.[/font]

We ought to distinguish between worship, which is for God alone, and honor, which we owe to kings (1 Peter 2:7), presbyters (1 Tim 5:17), wives (1 Peter 3:7), and indeed to all people (1 Peter 2:17), since all are in the image [icon] of Christ. We bow to honor one another and to honor our heroes in the Faith who are depicted in icons. We greet all the saints (Hebrews 13:24) with a holy kiss ...including the saints who are represented in the Bible and in icons. After all, there isn't a great chasm fixed between the living and the dead. That gulf lies between the righteous and the wicked (Luke 16:26), not between us and the living Christians who are "absent from the body and present with the Lord." Christ doesn't have two Bodies, one on earth and one in heaven; His Body the Church is one, and includes both us who are in the body and the "great cloud of witnesses" (Heb 12:1).
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[jcright]

To God, always, always, always to God. I thank you for your clarifying question.

And I thank you for clarifying

 

[@@Paul@@]

I agree with you, Paul. But if we held to that absolutely, we wouldn't be able to speak about God at all, or even think about him for that matter. God is so completely beyond our words, our thoughts, our imagination. So while I agree with your point, I don't see that it holds up under scruitny.

I see that as totally different...

Speaking about, or thinking about God is totally different than making something with our own hands to remind us of God (or what He did)



P.S. None of my points hold up under scruitny.

 

[OracleX]

Is there something wrong with having something that reminds us of God? I have so many things that do that. The pictures of my daughter at work, my mouse pad, my wedding ring, my promise ring, numberous pictures, poems and verses hanged on my wall at home, and yes even a cross with a dove in the middle that I use to wear till the ring broke.

I believe there is a deffinate difference between having things that remind us of God and His goodness and things that are worshipped.

 

[ZiSunka]

As with anything else; this is just my personal opinion on the matter...

Isa 40:18-25 KJV

(18) To whom then will ye liken God? or what likeness will ye compare unto him?
(19) The workman melteth a graven image, and the goldsmith spreadeth it over with gold, and casteth silver chains.
(20) He that is so impoverished that he hath no oblation chooseth a tree that will not rot; he seeketh unto him a cunning workman to prepare a graven image, that shall not be moved.
(21) Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?
(22) It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
(23) That bringeth the princes to nothing; he maketh the judges of the earth as vanity.
(24) Yea, they shall not be planted; yea, they shall not be sown: yea, their stock shall not take root in the earth: and he shall also blow upon them, and they shall wither, and the whirlwind shall take them away as stubble.
(25) To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.
​

Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.​

I agree with Albert Barnes: It's absurd to think THE CREATOR which sits upon the circle of the earth, WHO sees us as mere grasshoppers, remotely resembles ANY image we have the ability to make.

I don't get your point... What does this all have to do with what I said?

 

[Carrye]

P.S. None of my points hold up under scruitny.

God bless you, brother.

Is there something wrong with having something that reminds us of God? I have so many things that do that. The pictures of my daughter at work, my mouse pad, my wedding ring, my promise ring, numberous pictures, poems and verses hanged on my wall at home, and yes even a cross with a dove in the middle that I use to wear till the ring broke.

I believe there is a deffinate difference between having things that remind us of God and His goodness and things that are worshipped.

I agree with you. I was thinking about this point this morning. I was looking around my room at all of the stuffed animals that a friend of mine, who has now moved away, gave me. The stuffed animals remind me of my friend's goodness and love even when he can't physically be here. I don't worship the things, nor do I think they are my friend, but they are comforting reminders and they make him feel closer.

 

[vlinder]

To Life Immortal

We honour icons, not worship them; only the Eternal is to be worshipped.

In lobby of church are icons of Lord Jesus, Blessed Virgin, the saint of the church and icon of the saint or event honoured on that day. I enter church and make sign of cross then kiss icon and light candle in front of it (when I can).

Then I enter main part of church where people sit. If I pass in front of altar, I make sign of cross because Orthodox believe in the Real Presence. I go to where chanters stand and chant during Divine Liturgy.

At end of services, we kiss cross and take piece of bread from bowl. When I leave church I make sign of cross.

We don't worship icon or cross; we honour what they represent. I pray to Lord Jesus only.

I hope I explain OK.

Peace and Long Life
~*~ Vlinder ~*~

 

[SumTinWong]

You did a very good job vlinder. I think someone asked, and maybe you can help, why do you kiss the icons?

 

[vlinder]

To Life Immortal

You did a very good job vlinder. I think someone asked, and maybe you can help, why do you kiss the icons?

I kiss icon by kissing my fingertips and touch icon. I do that out of respect and honour. Some people actually kiss icon with lips. I don't do that. Soon I will have an icon corner in my house. It is a home altar where you can pray and talk with Lord Jesus.

Peace and Long Life
~*~ Vlinder ~*~

 

[Carrye]

I think someone asked, and maybe you can help, why do you kiss the icons?

One can think of it this way: A person might walk up to a photograph of his parents and kiss it. He knows that it isn't his parents, and he isn't loving the photograph itself, but he is showing love and reverence for his parents.

 

[OracleX]

One can think of it this way: A person might walk up to a photograph of his parents and kiss it. He knows that it isn't his parents, and he isn't loving the photograph itself, but he is showing love and reverence for his parents.

I have done this with pictures of my daughter when she is away at the grandparents for the weekend. Some times it is her bunny (stuff animal) that ends up in our bed to remind us of her.

... just a side note ... please no teasing about sleeping with my daughters bunny

 

[Carrye]

I have done this with pictures of my daughter when she is away at the grandparents for the weekend. Some times it is her bunny (stuff animal) that ends up in our bed to remind us of her.

... just a side note ... please no teasing about sleeping with my daughters bunny

That's so sweet, OracleX! I need an "aww" emoticon right now.

 

[bleechers]

[/i]

I respect you Bleechers, but let's give the whole story. Who is the "Sweet Heart" of Mary? Christ Jesus. And we're not asking Mary to give eternal rest to souls, as the whole prayer goes: "Eternal rest grant unto them O Lord, and let perpetual light shine upon them."

Nice try, but you must know that the CC has exalted Mary to "Co-redemptrix".

Just some of the "whole story":

964 Mary's role in the Church is inseparable from her union with Christ and flows directly from it. "This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ's virginal conception up to his death"; it is made manifest above all at the hour of his Passion. ... enduring with her only begotten Son the intensity of his suffering, joining herself with his sacrifice in her mother's heart, and lovingly consenting to the immolation of this victim, born of her ...

966 "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son ..." The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son's Resurrection ... "In giving birth you kept your virginity... You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death" (Byzantine Liturgy, Troparion, Feast of the Dormition, August 15th.).

968 "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope and burning charity in the Saviour's work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace."

969 "... Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us gifts of eternal salvation. ... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."

These ideas are wholly incompatable and wholly unacceptable to the gospel as believed and preached by most baptists.

 

[bleechers]

[/i]

I respect you Bleechers, but let's give the whole story. Who is the "Sweet Heart" of Mary? Christ Jesus. And we're not asking Mary to give eternal rest to souls, as the whole prayer goes: "Eternal rest grant unto them O Lord, and let perpetual light shine upon them."

Nice try, but you must know that the CC has exalted Mary to "Co-redemptrix".

Just some of the "whole story":

964 Mary's role in the Church is inseparable from her union with Christ and flows directly from it. "This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ's virginal conception up to his death"; it is made manifest above all at the hour of his Passion. ... enduring with her only begotten Son the intensity of his suffering, joining herself with his sacrifice in her mother's heart, and lovingly consenting to the immolation of this victim, born of her ...

966 "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son ..." The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son's Resurrection ... "In giving birth you kept your virginity... You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death" (Byzantine Liturgy, Troparion, Feast of the Dormition, August 15th.).

968 "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope and burning charity in the Saviour's work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace."

969 "... Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us gifts of eternal salvation. ... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."

This is taught in Vat2 and in the Universal catechism... it will soon be codified.

These ideas are wholly incompatable and wholly unacceptable to the gospel as believed and preached by most baptists.

 

[Carrye]

These ideas are wholly incompatable and wholly unacceptable to the gospel as believed and preached by most baptists.

I'm not going to argue Mary with you Bleechers, at least not in here. If you wish to do that via PM, ok. I know that Baptists disagree with much of what Catholics believe about Mary, that the ideas are "wholly unacceptable" as you say. That wasn't my point. My point was to present the Catholic point of view accurately. Many of us will never see eye-to-eye on this, but let's at least present each side as each side believes it.