I'm tired of the "abolished" argument...

[Clare73]

You may want to consider
scripture context and subject matter here as your disregarding it.

There is no disregarding here of what the NT actually teaches.

Hebrews 7 is
about a change of the laws of the Levitical Priesthood, not Gods' 10 commandments

The law of the priesthood is part of that Mosaic law, under whose supervision we are no longer (Galatians 3:25) because what was given to reveal sin (Romans 3:20) and to lead us to Christ (Galatians 3:24) was not just the Decalogue, but all of it.

because Jesus who is now our Great High Priest of the order of Melchizedek was of the tribe of Judah and only Levites colud take the role of the Priesthood (see Hebrews 7:11-28).

Gods Word nowhere in the bible teaches lawlessness (without law)

Strawman. . .

Matthew 22:37-40 and Romans 13:8-10 are not "lawlessness."

because through the law we have the knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4).

This is only posted to be helpful.

However, misapplication not being helpful, this is posted to be helpful regarding the misapplication.

 

[Clare73]

The law which has been set aside (Hebrews 7:18-19) was never given to the Gentiles.
The law of the New Covenant of the NT is for all mankind, including the Jews, is Matthew 22:37-40, which fulfills the Mosaic law "and any other commandment there may be" (Romans 13:8-10).
Precisely. . .and in the New Covenant of the NT those are the commandments of Christ (Matthew 22:37-40), which fulfill the OT commandments (Romans 13:8-10).

Not true. It was given to mankind "All the world" ... "every mouth closed".

< sigh>

That is the summation of Romans 1:18-3:8, where the mouths of the Gentiles "are closed" by
the law of their conscience (Romans 2:14-16), not by the law of Moses.

Rom 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. (not "just the Jews")

Rom 3:23 "ALL have sinned" -- (not "just the Jews")

John 16: 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin (not "just the Jews")

So then it is a "sin to take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 -- even when gentiles do it.

Even in the New Testament "sin IS transgression of the Law" 1 John3:4

 

[Clare73]

The New Covenant of the NT is the New Covenant of the OT.

However, the New Covenant did not exist in the OT, while it does exist in the NT.

Jer 31:31--34 , quoted verbatim in Heb 8:6-12 as the New Covenant of the New Testament

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Clare73 said: ↑ The law which has been set aside (Hebrews 7:18-19) was never given to the Gentiles.

My response here...

You may want to consider scripture context and subject matter here as your disregarding it. Hebrews 7 is about a change of the laws of the Levitical Priesthood, not Gods' 10 commandments because Jesus who is now our Great High Priest of the order of Melchizedek was of the tribe of Judah and only Levites could take the role of the Priesthood (see Hebrews 7:11-28). Gods Word nowhere in the bible teaches lawlessness (without law) because through the law we have the knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4). This is only posted to be helpful. Take Care.

Your response...

There is no disregarding here of what the NT actually teaches

Yes there was. You were claiming that Hebrews 7:18-19 was talking about God's 10 commandments. It says no such thing as posted in the post and shown through the scriptures earlier, Hebrews 7 is about a change of the laws of the Levitical Priesthood, not Gods' 10 commandments because Jesus who is now our Great High Priest of the order of Melchizedek was of the tribe of Judah and only Levites could take the role of the Priesthood (see Hebrews 7:11-28).

The law of the priesthood is part of that Mosaic law, under whose supervision we are no longer (Galatians 3:25) because what was given to reveal sin (Romans 3:20) and to lead us to Christ (Galatians 3:24) was not just the Decalogue, but all of it.

The Priesthood laws are not God's 10 commandments. Romans 3 is not talking about the laws of the Priesthood. It is talking about the law of God which gives us the knowledge of what sin is when broken.

Strawman. . . Matthew 22:37-40 and Romans 13:8-10 are not "lawlessness."

Your deflecting. Matthew 22:37-40; Romans 13:8-10 upholds the law. It does not delete it.

However, misapplication not being helpful

Then it is best not to do it.

Take Care.

 

[Clare73]

My response here...

Your response...

Yes there was.

There was neither "disregard" nor denial of the change in the laws regarding the priesthood.

Hebrews 7:18-19 was talking about God's 10 commandments.

I stated it was referring to the Mosaic law, and that means all of the Mosaic law, not just the Decalogue.

Matthew 22:37-40; Romans 13:8-10 upholds the law. It does not delete it.

Strawman. . .

There being even more misapplication there by you than I realized, I was being even more helpful than I realized.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

There was neither "disregard" nor denial of the change in the laws regarding the priesthood.

I see so you now agree that Hebrews 7 is talking about the changing of the laws of the Priesthood and not God's 10 commandments. That is a good start.

I stated it was referring to the Mosaic law, and that means all of the Mosaic law, not just the Decalogue.

That sounds like a contradiction to what you had just said above. Hebrews 7 has nothing to do with Gods' 10 commandments. It is about the change of the laws of the Priesthood because our Lord was of the tribe of Judah. According to the law only Levites could become Priests.

Strawman. . . There being even more misapplication there by you than I realized, I was being even more helpful than I realized.

There was no strawman my side, as posted earlier, you're deflecting. Matthew 22:37-40; Romans 13:8-10 upholds the law. It does not delete it. Gods' Word does not teach lawlessness (without law).

Take Care.

 

[Clare73]

I see so you now agree that Hebrews 7 is talking about the changing of the laws of the Priesthood and not God's Ten Commandments.

Right. . .that is dealt with in Ephesians 2:15 regarding the whole Mosaic law, which includes the laws of the priesthood, and in Matthew 22:37-40; Romans 13:8-10, where the Decalogue, "and any other commanment there may be," are now being fulfilled.

Matthew 22:37-40; Romans 13:8-10 upholds the law. It does not delete it. Gods' Word does not teach lawlessness (without law).

Strawman. . .

 

[LoveGodsWord]

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ I see so you now agree that Hebrews 7 is talking about the changing of the laws of the Priesthood and not God's 10 commandments. That is a good start.

Your response here...

Right. . .that is dealt with in Ephesians 2:15 regarding the whole Mosaic law, which includes the laws of the priesthood, and in Matthew 22:37-40; Romans 13:8-10, where the Decalogue, "and any other commanment there may be," are now being fulfilled.

You may need to explain yourself here as what you have written here sounds very confusing. So are you agreeing with me that Hebrews 7 is talking about the Priesthood and not Gods' 10 commandments? What exactly is being dealt with in Ephesians 2:15? As posted earlier Matthew 22:37-40; Romans 13:8-10 upholds the law. It does not delete it. Gods' Word does not teach lawlessness (without law).

Strawman. . .

You're deflecting again see previous section and read the scriptures you posted. Matthew 22:37-40; Romans 13:8-10 upholds the law. It does not delete it. Gods' Word does not teach lawlessness (without law).

Take Care.

 

[Clare73]

Your response here...

You may need to explain yourself here as what you have written here sounds very confusing. So are you agreeing with me that Hebrews 7 is talking about the Priesthood and not Gods' 10 commandments?

I will agree with you for the sake of argument, that Hebrews 7 does not refer to the Decalogue.
It refers only to the laws regarding the priesthood.

What exactly is being dealt with in Ephesians 2:15?

Ephesians 2:15 is dealing with the commandments and regulations of the law.

As posted earlier Matthew 22:37-40; Romans 13:8-10 upholds the law. It does not delete it. Gods' Word does not teach lawlessness (without law). You're deflecting again see previous section and read the scriptures you posted. Matthew 22:37-40; Romans 13:8-10 upholds the law. It does not delete it. Gods' Word does not teach lawlessness (without law).

Strawman. . .

This is the heart of the matter.

The authoritative NT apostolic teaching is that the law has been rendered inoperative (Ephesians 2:15) because it has done what it was given to do. . . to reveal sin (Romans 3:20) and to lead to Christ (Galatians 3:24).
Now that faith in Christ has come (the law having done what it was given to do), we are no longer under the supervision of the law (Galatians 3:25).

Rather, in the NT we now establish it on its right basis, not as a means of the righteousness of justification which is imputed to us, as it was to Abraham, but as the means of sanctification through obedience in the Holy Spirit which leads to that imparted righteousness, leading to holiness (Romans 6:6, Romans 6:9) of the already-justified and saved, that obedience not leading to salvation or justification.

Do you agree with this?

If not, please provide your interpretation of these six Scriptures, in keeping with their words and their context.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I will agree with you for the sake of argument, that Hebrews 7 does not refer to the Decalogue. It refers only to the laws regarding the priesthood.

Well that is a good start. I am glad we are finally in agreement. This was the only reason for me posting to you earlier.

Ephesians 2:15 is dealing with the commandments and regulations of the law.

What commandments? What do you mean regulation of the law?

Strawman. . .

Why would you claim "strawman" when I say to you that Matthew 22:37-40; Romans 13:8-10 upholds the law. It does not delete it? You're deflecting again. Gods' Word does not teach lawlessness (without law).

This is the heart of the matter. The authoritative NT apostolic teaching is that the law has been rendered inoperative (Ephesians 2:15) because it has done what it was given to do. . . to reveal sin (Romans 3:20) and to lead to Christ (Galatians 3:24).

Just as you agree with me now that Hebrews 7 is not talking about God's 10 commandments are you opened to seeing why Ephesian 2:15 is not talking about Gods' 10 commandments? You're mixing up scripture here Romans 3:20 and Galatians 3:22-25 is talking about the role of God's law in giving us a knowledge of what sin is and leading us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith. While Ephesian 2:15 is talking about the law of commandments contained in "ordinances" (δόγμα; dogma; meaning is civil; ceremonial or ecclesiastical law). It is not a reference to Gods' 10 commandments but the laws that separated Jews and gentiles. Christs death now means that we are all now one in Christ. On the other hand Romans 3:20 simply tells us the role of God's law is to give us a knowledge of what sin is when we break Gods' law as does Romans 7:7 and 1 John 3:4 and Galatians 3:22-25 simply shows the role of Gods' law is to lead us to Christ that we might seek Gods' forgiveness through faith. So there is no deleting of God's law. Sin is deleted by Gods grace as we have faith in God's promises not God's law that gives us the knowledge of what sin is and leads us to Christ so that we can receive God's forgiveness.

Now that faith in Christ has come (the law having done what it was given to do), we are no longer under the supervision of the law (Galatians 3:25).

What Galatians 3:25 means is that once faith is come in God's promise of forgiveness of sins we are no longer under the condemnation and penalty of the law because our sins have been forgiven. It is not saying we are now free to break Gods' law. That would be a contradiction of the scriptures. So looking at the contexts of these scriptures we see that the purpose of God's law is to lead us to Christ so that we can receive Gods' forgiveness through faith which means we have we no longer stand guilty before God of breaking the law. Let's look at the scripture contexts here...'

Galatians 3:22-25
[22], But the scripture has concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Note: We already agree that Romans 3:20 and Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 all state that the purpose of Gods' law is to give us a knowledge of what sin is when we break it. Galatians 3:22 says that all of us have broken God's law which agrees with what Romans 3:9-19 and are stand before God "under the law" guilty before God of sin.

[23], But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up to the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Note: Galatians 3:23 simply says before we had any faith all we had was condemnation and death because of sin because we had broken God's law which agrees to Galatians 3:22 and also agrees with Romans 3:19.

[24], Why the law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Note: Galatians 3:24 agrees with Galatians 3:22-23 and shows us that the law during this time before there was no faith was our teacher leading us to Christ that we might seek His forgiveness through faith.

[25], But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Note: Galatians 3:25 agrees with the scripture context of Galatians 3:22-24 and shows that once we have faith and receive God's forgiveness of sins we are no longer standing before God "under the law" guilty of sin. The term "under the law" here is in context to not having faith standing guilty before God of sin. Compare this to Romans 3:9-19. It is not saying we are not under the law and have no need to obey Gods' law that would be sin which is the very definition of breaking God's law.

Rather, in the NT we now establish it on its right basis, not as a means of the righteousness of justification which is imputed to us, as it was to Abraham, but as the means of sanctification through obedience in the Holy Spirit which leads to that imparted righteousness, leading to holiness (Romans 6:6, Romans 6:9) of the already-justified and saved, that obedience not leading to salvation or justification.

I do not think a single person has ever said to you in these discussion boards that anyone receives their righteousness by the works of the law so if we are in agreement here then you have no argument here because we are in agreement. According to the scriptures, we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9. Obedience to God's law is not how we are saved because all of us have already broken the law and are under it's penalty of condemnation and death *Romans 3:9-23; 2 Corinthians 3:3-11. So it is by God's grace through faith that we are saved through Gods forgiveness of our sins. According to the scriptures, obedience to Gods' law is the fruit of genuine faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 as we believe and follow his word *John 10:26-27. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27. Therefore we do not abolish God's law through faith like some people teach but God's law is established in the heart by faith that works by love *Romans 3:31; 1 John 5:3-4; Romans 13:8-10. According to the scriptures, sin (breaking God' commandments and not believing and following God's Word) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:6-10; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14 and according to James there is no such thing as faith that does not have the fruit of obedience to Gods' Word. As posted to your friend faith without works is simply the dead faith of devils according to James 2:17-26. Gods Word does not teach lawlessness (without law) *1 John 2:3-4. This is why Jesus says "unless a man is born again" into Gods' new covenant promise (Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-36 and Ezekiel 36:24-27 "we cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven" (see John 3:3-7 and compare with 1 John 3:6-9).

Take Care.

 

[Clare73]

Well that is a good start. I am glad

we are finally in agreement. This was the only reason for me posting to you earlier.

What commandments? What do you mean regulation of the law?

I mean whatever Paul means in Ephesians 2:15 and in
1 Corinthians 9:20 - he is not under the law
1 Corinthians 9:21 - he is under the law of Christ, which is God's law
Romans 13:8-10 - love is the fulfillment of the law "and whatever other commandment there may be."

and I mean whatever Jesus means in Matthew 22:37-40.

Why would you claim "strawman" when I say to you that

Matthew 22:37-40; Romans 13:8-10 upholds the law. It does not delete it? You're deflecting again. Gods' Word does not teach lawlessness (without law).

Strawman. . .

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I mean whatever Paul means in Ephesians 2:15 and in
1 Corinthians 9:20 - he is not under the law
1 Corinthians 9:21 - he is under the law of Christ, which is God's law
Romans 13:8-10 - love is the fulfillment of the law "and whatever other commandment there may be."

and I mean whatever Jesus means in Matthew 22:37-40.
Strawman. . .

See post # 90 linked as it was updated since you added more content into your post that was not there before I posted.

According to the scriptures, Ephesians 2:15 is not talking about Gods' 10 commandments. It is talking about the enmity between the Jews and the Gentiles is the separation between them by the commandments contained in “ordinances (Ephesians 2:15). God’s 10 commandments were never contained in ordinances. The Greek word used here is the same words used in Colossians 2:14 “Blotting out the handwriting contained in ordinances that were against us.” The Greek word used here for “ordinances” is δόγμα (dógma | G1378) which means a civil; ceremonial or ecclesiastical law that was against us. So the reference here is not to God’s 10 commandments but the laws in “ordinances” (civil; ceremonial or ecclesiastical law) that separated Jews from the Gentile believers in Ephesians 2:15. The laws of separation were the laws for remission of sins. Genetile believers were not allowed to partake of the laws for remission of sins unless they became proselytes or converted to Judaism. Jesus broke down the middle wall of partition by His death putting and end to the old covenant laws for remission of sins (earthly Sanctuary, the Levitical Priesthood, animal sacrifices and sin offerings) that all point to Christ and were fulfilled in Him at his death nailing them to the cross *Colossians 2:14 hat he might create in himself of the two (Jew and Gentile believers) one new man, so making peace and might reconcile them both in one body unto God through the cross, having slain the enmity thereby (sin and its penalty of condemnation and death) *Ephesians 2:15-16.

Ephesians 2:11-18
[11], WHY REMEMBER, THAT YOU BEING IN TIME PAST GENTILES IN THE FLESH, WHO ARE CALLED UNCIRCUMCISION BY THAT WHICH IS CALLED THE CIRCUMCISION IN THE FLESH MADE BY HANDS;
[12], That at THAT TIME YOU WERE WITHOUT CHRIST, BEING ALIENS FROM THE COMMONWEALTH OF ISRAEL, AND STRANGERS FROM THE COVENANTS OF PROMISE, HAVING NO HOPE, AND WITHOUT GOD IN THE WORLD:

Note: Context here is to the separation of Jews and Gentiles with God's covenant only being with Israel.

[13], BUT NOW IN CHRIST JESUS YOU WHO SOMETIMES WERE FAR OFF ARE MADE NEAR BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST.

Note: Now gentile believers that had no hope and no covenant and separated from Israel are now brought near by the blood of Christ.

[14], FOR HE IS OUR PEACE, WHO HAS MADE BOTH ONE, AND HAS BROKEN DOWN THE MIDDLE WALL OF PARTITION BETWEEN US;

Note: Jesus has broken down the middle wall of separation between Jew and Gentile believers becoming out peace

[15], HAVING ABOLISHED IN HIS FLESH THE ENMITY, EVEN THE LAW OF COMMANDMENTS CONTAINED IN ORDINANCES; FOR TO MAKE IN HIMSELF OF TWO ONE NEW MAN, SO MAKING PEACE;

Note: Note here that it is the law of commandments contained in ordinances. This is not a reference to Gods' 10 commandments as God's 10 commandments are not contained in ordinances. The Greek word for ordinances used here is δόγμα (dógma; G1378) and means a civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical law. The context here is the separation of Jews and gentiles under the old covenant laws and that Christ abolished them in His flesh for to make in himself one new man making peace. That is in Christs death on the cross put an end to the ceremonial laws for the remission of sins. These were all prophetic laws pointing to the coming and death of Christ. These laws of animal sacrifices and sin offerings, the Levitical Priesthood, the meat and drink offerings, the annual Feasts all pointed to the coming of the Messiah as God's sacrifice for the sins of the world. These were abolished at the cross being fulfilled in Jesus.

[16], And THAT HE MIGHT RECONCILE BOTH TO GOD in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Note: Christ death breaking down the wall of separation between Jews and gentile believers

[17], And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were near.
[18], For through him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.

Note: Both Jews and Gentile believers are now one in Christ no more walls of separation.

....................

SUMMARY: Ephesians 2:11-18 shows that Christs death puts an end to the laws contained in ordinances for remission of sins and that the walls of separation between Jewish and Gentile believers are no more. Ephesians 2:15 is not talking about God's 10 commandments written on tables of stone as these are not contained in ordinances.

Strawman. . .

I asked you earlier, why would you claim "strawman" when I say to you that Matthew 22:37-40; Romans 13:8-10 upholds the law. It does not delete it? You're deflecting again. Gods' Word does not teach lawlessness (without law).

Take Care

 

[Clare73]

Well that is a good start. I am glad we are finally in agreement. This was the only reason for me posting to you earlier.

What commandments? What do you mean regulation of the law?

Why would you claim "strawman" when I say to you that Matthew 22:37-40; Romans 13:8-10 upholds the law. It does not delete it? You're deflecting again. Gods' Word does not teach lawlessness (without law).

Just as you agree with me now that Hebrews 7 is not talking about God's 10 commandments are you opened to seeing why Ephesian 2:15 is not talking about Gods' 10 commandments?

Are you open to Galatians 3:23-25 being about the Decalogue?

Galatians 3:23-25 makes clear under the supervision of what law we no longer are--the one that cursed us (Galatians 3:10), held us prisoners, locked up in disobedience (Romans 11:32) until faith in Christ came; i.e. the Decalogue.

You're mixing up scripture here Romans 3:20 and Galatians 3:22-25 is talking about the role of God's law in giving us a knowledge of what sin is and leading us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith.

While Ephesian 2:15 is talking about the law of commandments contained in "ordinances" (δόγμα; dogma; meaning is civil; ceremonial or ecclesiastical law). It is not a reference to Gods' 10 commandments but the laws that separated Jews and gentiles. Christs death now means that we are all now one in Christ. On the other hand Romans 3:20 simply tells us the role of God's law is to give us a knowledge of what sin is when we break Gods' law as does Romans 7:7 and 1 John 3:4 and Galatians 3:22-25 simply shows the role of Gods' law is to lead us to Christ that we might seek Gods' forgiveness through faith. So there is no deleting of God's law. Sin is deleted by Gods grace as we have faith in God's promises not God's law that gives us the knowledge of what sin is and leads us to Christ so that we can receive God's forgiveness.

What Galatians 3:25 means is that once faith is come in God's promise of forgiveness of sins

While forgiveness of sin is salvation from God's wrath, neither salvation nor forgiveness of sin is the aspect of redemption being presented in Galatians 3:23-25.
This is about trying to be justified (made righteous, Galatians 3:24) by law-keeping (under the supervision of the law) leading us to Christ to be justified by faith, apart from law-keeping.

we are no longer under the condemnation and penalty of the law

This is not about condemnation and penalty, this is about no longer being under the supervision of the law because justification is by faith, not by law keeping.

because our sins have been forgiven. It is not saying we are now free to break Gods' law.

Strawman. . .

Galatians 3:22-25
[22], But the scripture has concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Note: We already agree that Romans 3:20 and Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 all state that the purpose of Gods' law is to give us a knowledge of what sin is when we break it.

The law makes us conscious of sin because it condemns to death (Romans 7:9).
We were held prisoners by the law, locked up (Romans 11:32), until faith in Christ was revealed as our justification (Galatians 3:24), rather than law-keeping.

Galatians 3:22 says that all of us have broken God's law which agrees with what Romans 3:9-19 and are stand before God "under the law" guilty before God of sin.
[23], But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up to the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Note: Galatians 3:23 simply says before we had any faith all we had was condemnation and death because of sin because we had broken God's law which agrees to Galatians 3:22 and also agrees with Romans 3:19.

[24], Why the law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Note: Galatians 3:24 agrees with Galatians 3:22-23 and shows us that the law during this time before there was no faith was our teacher leading us to Christ that we might seek His forgiveness through faith.

It's not about forgiveness of sin and salvation.
It's about justification (righteousness) by faith rather than by law-keeping.

[25], But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Note: Galatians 3:25 agrees with the scripture context of Galatians 3:22-24 and shows that once we have faith and receive God's forgiveness of sins we are no longer standing before God "under the law" guilty of sin. The term "under the law" here is in context to not having faith standing guilty before God of sin.

This is not about salvation and forgiveness of sin. This is about justification.
"Under the law" is in context of justification (righteousness) by faith rather than law-keeping.
It's not about guilt, which is dealt with in salvation by faith.

So. . .it is not Hebrews 7 and Ephesians 2:15 that are about the Decalogue.

It is Galatians 3:23-25 that is about not being under the Mosaic law (law keeping) for justification (righteousness), because we are under faith only for justification (righteousness).

Are we in agreement on the following:

In the NT we now establish the law on its right basis, not as a means of the righteousness of justification which is imputed to us, as it was to Abraham, but as the means of sanctification through obedience in the Holy Spirit which leads to that imparted righteousness, leading to holiness (Romans 6:6, Romans 6:9) of the already-justified and saved, that obedience not leading to salvation or justification.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Galatians 3:23-25 makes clear under the supervision of what law we no longer are--the one that cursed us (Galatians 3:10), held us prisoners, locked up in disobedience (Romans 11:32) until faith in Christ came; i.e. the Decalogue.

According to the scriptures, sin holds us prisoner not the law *Romans 7:1-25; Romans 6:1-23. All the law does is give us a knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4) and leads us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith (Galatians 3:22-25 see post # 90 linked).

While forgiveness of sin is salvation from God's wrath, neither salvation nor forgiveness of sin is the aspect of redemption being presented in Galatians 3:23-25 This is about trying to be justified (made righteous, Galatians 3:24) by law-keeping (under the supervision of the law) leading us to Christ to be justified by faith, apart from law-keeping. This is not about condemnation and penalty, this is about no longer being under the supervision of the law because justification is by faith, not by law keeping.

According to the scriptures, Galatians 3:22-25 is all about Gods' law being our schoolmaster that leads us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith. We should be careful to believe what the scriptures actually teach and not read into them what they do not say and do not teach. As shown from the scriptures already,

Galatians 3:22-25
[22], But the scripture has concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Note: We already agree that Romans 3:20 and Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 all state that the purpose of Gods' law is to give us a knowledge of what sin is when we break it. Galatians 3:22 says that all of us have broken God's law which agrees with what Romans 3:9-19 and are stand before God "under the law" guilty before God of sin.

[23], But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up to the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Note: Galatians 3:23 simply says before we had any faith all we had was condemnation and death because of sin because we had broken God's law which agrees to Galatians 3:22 and also agrees with Romans 3:19.

[24], Why the law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Note: Galatians 3:24 agrees with Galatians 3:22-23 and shows us that the law during this time before there was no faith was our teacher leading us to Christ that we might seek His forgiveness through faith.

[25], But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Note: Galatians 3:25 agrees with the scripture context of Galatians 3:22-24 and shows that once we have faith and receive God's forgiveness of sins we are no longer standing before God "under the law" guilty of sin. The term "under the law" here is in context to not having faith standing guilty before God of sin. Compare this to Romans 3:9-19. It is not saying we are not under the law and have no need to obey Gods' law that would be sin which is the very definition of breaking God's law.

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ Galatians 3:22-25
[22], But the scripture has concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Note: We already agree that Romans 3:20 and Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 all state that the purpose of Gods' law is to give us a knowledge of what sin is when we break it.

Your response here...

The law makes us conscious of sin because it condemns to death (Romans 7:9). We were held prisoners by the law, locked up (Romans 11:32), until faith in Christ was revealed as our justification (Galatians 3:24), rather than law-keeping.

There is nothing posted to you that has anything whatsoever to do with law keeping. The context is Galatians 3:22 is stating the we are all under sin because we have all broken God's law that gives us the knowledge of what sin is *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7. We only sin when we break Gods' law and we do not believe and follow what God's Word says. We are not held prisoners by the law according to the scriptures we are held prisoners by sin defined in the scriptures as breaking Gods' law and not believing his Word.

It's not about forgiveness of sin and salvation, It's about justification (righteousness) by faith

Justification is forgiveness of sins. Do you know what the difference between justification and sanctification is?

rather than by law-keeping.

Random comment? Who has ever said to you Galatians 3:22-25 was about law keeping?

This is not about salvation and forgiveness of sin. This is about justification.

Let me say it again, justification is forgiveness of sins. Do you know what the difference between justification and sanctification is?

"Under the law" is in context of justification (righteousness) by faith rather than law-keeping. It's not about guilt, which is dealt with in salvation by faith.

Then we read in Romans 3:19 [19], Now we know that what things soever the law said, it said to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

So. . .it is not Hebrews 7 and Ephesians 2:15 that are about the Decalogue.

Well I am glad we are all in agreement now in regards to Hebrews 7 and Ephesians 2:15. So why all the arguments from the beginning when this is all that I was posting to you?

It is Galatians 3:23-25 that is about not being under the Mosaic law (law keeping) for justification (righteousness), because we are under faith only for justification (righteousness)

I do not read in Galatians 3:22-25 that these scriptures are about being justified by law keeping. I see the scriptures as showing that the law teaches us that we are all guilty before God of sin because we have all broken Gods' law and leads us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith as shown from the scriptures in post # 90 linked

Are we in agreement on the following: In the NT we now establish the law on its right basis, not as a means of the righteousness of justification which is imputed to us, as it was to Abraham, but as the means of sanctification through obedience in the Holy Spirit which leads to that imparted righteousness, leading to holiness (Romans 6:6, Romans 6:9) of the already-justified and saved, that obedience not leading to salvation or justification.

According to the scripture God's law in the new covenant is written in the hearts and is established in the lives of all those who have been born of God to love and to walk in the Spirit *Galatians 5:16 according to God's new covenant promise (see Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-36; Ezekiel 36:24:27; John 3:36 compare with 1 John 3:6-9). As posted earlier according to the scriptures, we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9. Obedience to God's law is not how we are saved because all of us have already broken the law and are under it's penalty of condemnation and death *Romans 3:9-23; 2 Corinthians 3:3-11. So it is by God's grace through faith that we are saved through Gods forgiveness of our sins.

According to the scriptures, obedience to Gods' law is the fruit of genuine faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 as we believe and follow his word *John 10:26-27. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27. Therefore we do not abolish God's law through faith like some people teach but God's law is established in the heart by faith that works by love *Romans 3:31; 1 John 5:3-4; Romans 13:8-10. According to the scriptures, sin (breaking God' commandments and not believing and following God's Word) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:6-10; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14 and according to James there is no such thing as faith that does not have the fruit of obedience to Gods' Word. As posted to your friend faith without works is simply the dead faith of devils according to James 2:17-26.

Take Care.

 

[Clare73]

According to the scriptures, sin holds us prisoner not the law

According to Galatians 3:23 we are held prisoners by the law (that being the Decalogue), which pretty much amounts to the same thing as prisoner of sin, because they both stimulate sin (Galatians 4:3; Romans 7:8; Colossians 2:20)

*Romans 7:1-25; Romans 6:1-23. All the law does is give us a knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4) and leads us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith (Galatians 3:22-25 see post # 90 linked).

According to the scriptures, Galatians 3:22-25 is all about Gods' law being our schoolmaster that leads us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith.

Non-responsive to demonstration of Galatians 3:24.

Galatians 3:23-25 is not about forgiveness. Galatians 3:24 states the passage is about justification; i.e., declared righteous due to the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ, just as Abraham was declared righteous (Genesis 15:6) due to the righteousness of God (Romans 1:17, Romans 3:21) that was credited/imputed to him because of faith (Romans 4:3).

We should be careful to believe what the scriptures actually teach and not read into them what they do not teach.

As you read "being forgiven" into what is about "justification."

Physician, heal thyself.

Non-responsive to Galatians 3:24 on justification.

As shown from the Scriptures already
Galatians 3:22-25
[22], But the scripture has concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Note: We already agree that Romans 3:20 and Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 all state that the purpose of Gods' law is to give us a knowledge of what sin is when we break it. Galatians 3:22 says that all of us have broken God's law which agrees with what Romans 3:9-19 and are stand before God "under the law" guilty before God of sin.

[23], But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up to the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Note: Galatians 3:23 simply says before we had any faith all we had was condemnation and death because of sin because we had broken God's law which agrees to Galatians 3:22 and also agrees with Romans 3:19.

[24], Why the law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Note: Galatians 3:24 agrees with Galatians 3:22-23 and shows us that the law during this time before there was no faith was our teacher leading us to Christ that we might seek His forgiveness through faith.

[25], But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Note: Galatians 3:25 agrees with the scripture context of Galatians 3:22-24 and shows that once we have faith and receive God's forgiveness of sins we are no longer standing before God "under the law" guilty of sin. The term "under the law" here is in context to not having faith standing guilty before God of sin. Compare this to Romans 3:9-19. It is not saying we are not under the law and have no need to obey Gods' law that would be sin which is the very definition of breaking God's law.

Your response here...

There is nothing posted to you that has anything whatsoever to do with law keeping. The context is Galatians 3:22 is stating the we are all under sin because we have all broken God's law that gives us the knowledge of what sin is *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7. We only sin when we break Gods' law and we do not believe and follow what God's Word says. We are not held prisoners by the law according to the scriptures we are held prisoners by sin defined in the scriptures as breaking Gods' law and not believing his Word.

Justification is forgiveness of sins. Do you know what the difference between justification and sanctification is?
Let me say it again, justification is forgiveness of sins. Do you know what the difference between justification and sanctification is?

The Greek definition of 'justified" (dikaioo) used in Galatians 3:24 is: "to declare to be righteous, to pronounce righteous" by God because of faith.

Justification is righteousness imputed (by declaration).
Sanctification is righteousness imparted (in obedience),
the meaning of which is shown at the end of my post which you are addressing here.

Physician, heal thyself.

Random comment? Who has ever said to you Galatians 3:22-25 was about law keeping?

That would be the peman of Galatians 3:22-25, this passage being about justification (Galatians 3:24) and, if it's about justification, then it's about the exclusion of law-keeping (of the Decalogue) for righteousness (justification). . .as I stated.

You do not understand that the issue in Galatians 3:22-25 is justification, and that if it's about justification, then it's about the exclusion of law-keeping of the Decalogue for righteousness (justification),
and you do not know the correct meaning of "justify" in the NT (see above)
and, therefore, you do not know why "law-keeping" of the Decalogue would be even mentioned here.

Then we read in Romans 3:19 [19], Now we know that what things soever the law said, it said to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Well I am glad we are all in agreement now in regards to Hebrews 7 and Ephesians 2:15. So why all the arguments from the beginning when this is all that I was posting to you?

My agreement with Hebrews 7 was for argument's sake only.
Hebrews 7 is addressed below.
I expressed no agreement with Ephesians 2:15.

I do not read in Galatians 3:22-25 that these scriptures are about being justified by law keeping.

Then you are ignoring Galatians 3:24 which leads us to Christ, rather than to law-keeping of the Decalogue, to be justified.

I see the scriptures as showing that the law teaches us that we are all guilty before God of sin because we have all broken Gods' law and leads us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith as shown from the scriptures in post # 90 linked

Again. . .you are reading "might be forgiven" into the Scriptures, which they do not teach," and of which reading you mistakenly accuse others.

Physician, heal thyself.

According to the scripture God's law in the new covenant is written in the hearts and is established in the lives of all those who have been born of God to love and to walk in the Spirit *Galatians 5:16 according to God's new covenant promise (see Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-36; Ezekiel 36:24:27; John 3:37 compare with 1 John 3:6-9). As posted earlier according to the scriptures, we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9. Obedience to God's law is not how we are saved because all of us have already broken the law and are under it's penalty of condemnation and death *Romans 3:9-23; 2 Corinthians 3:3-11. So it is by God's grace through faith that we are saved through Gods forgiveness of our sins.

According to the scriptures, obedience to Gods' law is the fruit of genuine faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 as we believe and follow his word *John 10:26-27. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27. Therefore we do not abolish God's law through faith like some people teach but God's law is established in the heart by faith that works by love *Romans 3:31; 1 John 5:3-4; Romans 13:8-10. According to the scriptures, sin (breaking God' commandments and not believing and following God's Word) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:6-10; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14 and according to James there is no such thing as faith that does not have the fruit of obedience to Gods' Word. As posted to your friend faith without works is simply the dead faith of devils according to James 2:17-26.

Non-responsive. . .

You did not answer the question of your agreement or not with my statement.

In conclusion. . .regarding your post addressed here, you do not deal with the Scriptures I presented, showing their meaning--being true to their words and context, in relation to your view of the law.

So. . .now to return to what was agreed on for the sake of argument, only--Hebrews 7:11-19,
that the table might be cleared for a presentation of Galatians 3:23-25, which is now done.

You will note that the Mosaic law was given on the basis of the priesthood, and not the priesthood on the basis of the law.
The priesthood is above the Mosaic law, administering the Mosaic law.

The announcement (Psalms 110:4) of the coming new priesthood and High Priest, who would be a priest forever, was written halfway through the history of the priesthood, indicating that the existing system of priesthood and laws was to give way to something better.
And so, when the priesthood changed, the law it administered changed--all the law that it administered i.e., that law which was "weak and useless to make perfect" (Hebrews 7:18), being the same "powerless" law (Romans 8:3) which was replaced with a better hope (Hebrews 7:19), Jesus Christ--our sin offering (Romans 8:3), who is able to save completely those who come to God through him (Hebrews 7:5).

The law that was changed in Hebrews 7:12 was all the law administered by the Aaronic priesthood, which included the Decalogue. . .all changed to the law of the New High Priest, given in Matthew 22:37-40, which fulfills all the law "and any other commandments there may be." (Romans 13:8-10)

And finally, your response to my post #93 was incorrect regarding:
prisoners of the law in Galatians 3:23,
justification as the subject of Galatians 3:23-25,
the NT definition of "justification," which is not "forgiveness of sin,"
the relationship of law-keeping to Galatians 3:23-25.

In any future responses, please specifically address the NT points or Scriptures I present, explaining their meaning--being true to their words and context, in light of your view of the Scriptures.
Nothing else is actually responsive.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

According to Galatians 3:23 we are held prisoners by the law, which pretty much amounts to the same thing as prisoner of sin, because they both stimulate sin (Galatians 4:3; Romans 7:8; Colossians 2:20)

Trouble is sin and law are not the same thing. The scriptures actually state this in Romans 7:7 where it is written "What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. No, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet." So sin and the law are not the same thing according to the scriptures. All the law does is give us a knowledge of what sin is when Gods' law is broken because transgression of the law is sin (see 1 John 3:4; Romans 3:20; James 2:10-11). All you have posted here are a bunch of scripture taken out of context that does not support your claims here. The law is not the same as sin it only reveals sin to us when we break Gods' law. If we are obedient to God's law there is no sin because Gods' law is not broken. That is why Paul calls them Holy, just and good in Romans 7:12 and spiritual in Romans 7:14. Sin therefore is the problem not Gods' law that gives us a knowledge of what sin is and which God calls the standard of all righteousness when obeyed (Psalms 119:172).

LoveGodsWord said: ↑According to the scriptures, sin holds us prisoner not the law *Romans 7:1-25; Romans 6:1-23. All the law does is give us a knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4) and leads us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith (Galatians 3:22-25 see post # 90 linked).

Your response here...

Non-responsive to demonstration of Galatians 3:24.

Actually it was your post that was non-responsive to what you were responding to and Galatians 3:24 was addressed in detail further on in the same post you are quoting from and in the linked post you were responding to here.

Galatians 3:23-25 is not about forgiveness. Galatians 3:24 states the passage is about justification; i.e., declaration of righteousness due to the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ, just as Abraham was declared righteous (Genesis 15:6) due to the righteousness of God (Romans 1:17, Romans 3:21) that was credited/imputed to him because of faith (Romans 4:3).

According to the scripture Galatians 3:22-25 is all about Gods' forgiveness. As shown from the scriptures earlier comparing scripture by scripture in post # 90; and post # 94 linked which you have been non-responsive. The scriptures specifically show the purpose of Gods' law in leading us to Christ so that we might be forgiven through faith. I will not be repeating this again when you continue to ignore what was shown verbatim in the scriptures. The links are provided above if your interested in discussing what was shared with you there. For example, we already agree that Romans 3:20 and Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 all state that the purpose of Gods' law is to give us a knowledge of what sin is when we break it. Galatians 3:22 says that all of us have broken God's law which agrees with what Romans 3:9-19 says and that we all stand before God "under the law" guilty before God of sin. Galatians 3:23 simply says before we had any faith all we had was condemnation and death because of sin because we had broken God's law which agrees to Galatians 3:22 (context) and also agrees with Romans 3:19. Galatians 3:24 agrees with Galatians 3:22-23 and shows us that the law during this time before there was faith was our teacher leading us to Christ that we might seek His forgiveness through faith. While, Galatians 3:25 again agrees with the scripture context of Galatians 3:22-24 and shows that once we have faith and receive God's forgiveness of sins we are no longer standing before God "under the law" guilty of sin because we have been forgiven through faith that has come in Christ! The term "under the law" here is in context to not having faith standing guilty before God of sin. Compare this to Romans 3:9-19. It is not saying we are not under the law and have no need to obey Gods' law that would be sin which is the very definition of breaking God's law. Forgiveness of sin is the same as justification of sin.

more to come...

 

[LoveGodsWord]

As you read "being forgiven" into what is about "justification." Physician, heal thyself.

Sorry I have no idea what your talking about here. I prefer what the scriptures teach. According to the scriptures, we are justified from sin when we receive Gods' forgiveness of sins. God's forgiveness and justification of sin are not separate from each other. This is demonstrated in Luke 18:10-14 where it is written; talking about the two men who went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee said to God in the temple, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. Then the publican standing afar off, would not even lift up so much his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. Jesus tells us here that this man went down to his house justified rather than the other. Why? Because he confessed his sins to God and Jesus says he was "justified" rather than the other. God's promise therefore is "If we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us for our sins and to cleans us from all unrighteousness." - 1 John 3:4.

Non-responsive to Galatians 3:24 on justification.

Your repeating things that are not truthful here as Galatians 3:22-25 was addressed in detail in the very post you are quoting from.

The Greek definition of 'justified" (dikaioo) used in Galatians 3:24 is: "to declare to be righteous, to pronounce righteous" by God because of faith.

Well you simply hand waived a whole section of a detailed scripture response in regards to Galatians 3:22-25 so let's not talk about that if you do not want to. Let's just focus on your little comment here that was not responsive to what you were quoting from. If God declares us to be righteous have we been forgiven for our sins? Perhaps you might like to explain from the scriptures how you can be justified and not receive God's forgiveness? God's forgiveness and justification of sins are not separated as already shown in Luke 18:10-14 and 1 John 1:9

The meaning of sanctification is given at the end of my post which you are addressing here. Physician, heal thyself. That would be the peman of Galatians 3:22-25, which passage is about justification (Galatians 3:24) and, if it's about justification, then it's about the exclusion of law-keeping. . .as I stated.

I am sorry I have no idea what your talking about. According to the scriptures Luke 18:10-14 and 1 John 3:4). God's forgiveness and justification of sins are not separate Gods' forgiveness of sins leads to justification of sin that we receive when faith has come *Galatians 3:22-25. This is why the law leads us to Christ that we might be justified (forgiven) through faith. The Greek word used here is δικαιόω (dikaióō | G1344) and means to be declared righteous or innocent. We cannot be declared righteous or innocent if we have not received Gods' forgiveness of our sins.

Your not understanding that the issue in Galatians 3:22-25 is justification, and that if it's about justification, then it's about the exclusion of law-keeping; and your not knowing the correct meaning of "justify" in the NT (see above), you therefore do not know why "law-keeping" would be even mentioned.

I prefer the scriptures as shown earlier looking at the contexts of Galatians 3:22-25 that you simply disregarded and are non-responsive to in the very post you are quoting from.

My agreement with Hebrews 7 was for argument's sake only.

I see, so you have changed your mind again and think that Hebrews 7 is talking about the 10 commandments and not the Priesthood even after being shown from the scripture contexts and subject matter that it is talking about the laws of the Priesthood because Priests could only come from the tribe of Levi and Jesus was of the tribe of Judah (Hebrews 7:11-28).

I expressed no agreement with Ephesians 2:15.

Really? Did you not say to be earlier that Hebrews 7 and Ephesians 2:15 is not talking about the 10 commandments? If you did we are in agreement right? If you are back to disagreement again then it is up to you to prove from the scriptures that Gods' 10 commandments are contained in "ordinances" (which in Greek mean civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical law) and you would need to show context and subject matter of Hebrews 7 and Ephesians 2:15 is talking about Gods' 10 commandments. This is something you have failed to do as you were shown already in earlier posts showing scripture context and subject matter of Hebrews 7 and Ephesians 2:15 is not talking about God's 10 commandments. I thought that you stated you were in agreement that Hebrews 7 and Ephesians 2:15 is not talking about the Decalogue (your post # 93). You stated no agreement for arguments sake. It seems like your backtracking.

Then you are ignoring Galatians 3:24 which leads us to Christ, rather than to law-keeping, to be justified.

Your deflecting again. You were provided a scripture verse breakdown of Galatians 3:22-25 scripture by scripture showing context and subject matter that you were not responsive to because the scripture context and subject matter you were not responsive to is in disagreement with you (see post # 90; and post # 94 linked)

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ I do not read in Galatians 3:22-25 that these scriptures are about being justified by law keeping. I see the scriptures as showing that the law teaches us that we are all guilty before God of sin because we have all broken Gods' law and leads us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith as shown from the scriptures in post # 90 linked

Your response here...

Again. . .you are reading "might be forgiven" into the Scriptures which they do not teach," and of which you mistakenly accuse others. Physician, heal thyself.

You seem to be stuck in a loop here (some call circular reasoning). As posted in the section of the post you are quoting from I do not read in Galatians 3:22-25 that these scriptures are about being justified by law keeping at all have have shown why by providing scripture context and subject matter. Your reading law keeping into the scriptures. I see the scriptures as showing that the law teaches us that we are all guilty before God of sin (Galatians 3:22) because we have all broken Gods' law and that the purpose of Gods' law is to reveal what sin is when we break it and to leads us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith as shown from the scriptures in Galatians 3:22-25 (see post # 90; and post # 94 linked). You may want to consider the words of Jesus here when he says "they that be whole need not a physician but go learn what that means I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Do you know the meaning?

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ According to the scripture God's law in the new covenant is written in the hearts and is established in the lives of all those who have been born of God to love and to walk in the Spirit *Galatians 5:16 according to God's new covenant promise (see Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-36; Ezekiel 36:24:27; John 3:36 compare with 1 John 3:6-9). As posted earlier according to the scriptures, we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9. Obedience to God's law is not how we are saved because all of us have already broken the law and are under it's penalty of condemnation and death *Romans 3:9-23; 2 Corinthians 3:3-11. So it is by God's grace through faith that we are saved through Gods forgiveness of our sins. According to the scriptures, obedience to Gods' law is the fruit of genuine faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 as we believe and follow his word *John 10:26-27. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27. Therefore we do not abolish God's law through faith like some people teach but God's law is established in the heart by faith that works by love *Romans 3:31; 1 John 5:3-4; Romans 13:8-10. According to the scriptures, sin (breaking God' commandments and not believing and following God's Word) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:6-10; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14 and according to James there is no such thing as faith that does not have the fruit of obedience to Gods' Word. As posted to your friend faith without works is simply the dead faith of devils according to James 2:17-26.

Your response here...

Non-responsive. . .

Non-responsive to the post you are quoting from.

You did not answer the question of your agreement or not with my statement.

Your question was answered perhaps you did not like the answer and the detailed scripture response provided that shows the purpose of Gods' law, Gods' grace, and being saved by faith that leads us to obedience as we are born again through the Spirit into God's new covenant promise?

In conclusion. . .regarding your post addressed here, you do not deal with the Scriptures I presented, showing their meaning--being true to their words and context, in relation to your view of the law.

In conclusion I have dealt with every scripture you have provided for your claims here showing that they are in disagreement with context and subject matter. Yet you have simply been non-responsive to these posts and scriptures that are in disagreement with you. Sorry but I do not believe you.

So. . .now to return to what was agreed on for the sake of argument, only--Hebrews 7:11-19, that the table might be cleared for a presentation of Galatians 3:23-25, which is now done.

You never made claims of agreement for argument sake. You said in your own words Hebrews 7 and Ephesians 2:15 after I demonstrated scripture context and subject matter was not talking about the Decalogue. I can re-post exactly what you said if you want. Just let me know? I do not believe you have addressed any thing you have claimed in regards to Galatians 3:22-25. You were provided the scripture context and the subject matter that are in disagreement to your claims here and simply have chosen to be unresponsive to my posts and the scriptures that were shared with you proving this in post # 90; and post # 94 linked. So I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

You will note that the Mosaic law was given on the basis of the priesthood, and not the priesthood on the basis of the law. The priesthood is above the Mosaic law, administering the Mosaic law.

Actually I note no such thing according to the scriptures. What comes first breaking God's law resulting in sin or the laws of the Priesthood and remission of sin through blood sacrifice?

The announcement (Psalms 110:4) of the coming new priesthood and High Priest, who would be a priest forever, was written halfway through the history of the priesthood, indicating that the existing system of priesthood and laws was to give way to something better. And so, when the priesthood changed, the law it administered changed; i.e., that law which was "weak and useless to make perfect" (Hebrews 7:18), being the same "powerless" law (Romans 8:3) which was replaced with a better hope (Hebrews 7:19), Jesus Christ--our sin offering (Romans 8:3), who is able to save completely those who come to God through him (Hebrews 7:5). The law that was changed in Hebrews 7:12 was the Mosaic law administered by the Aaronic priesthood.

Sure, but what law are you claiming has changed? As shown already the scripture context of Hebrews 7 shows that this is the law of the Priesthood not the Decalogue. The law needed to be changed because only Levites could be Priests and Jesus was of the tribe of Judah as shown in Hebrews 7:11-28. While the laws for remission of sins under the old covenant Priesthood were to be changed because they were all prophetic "shadow laws" pointing to God's sacrifice in Christ for the sins of the world once and for all (Hebrews 10:10). Hebrews 7 is talking about the changing of the laws of the Priesthood not God's 10 commandments.

And finally, your response to my post #93 was incorrect regarding: prisoners of the law in Galatians 3:23, justification as the subject of Galatians 3:23-25, the NT definition of "justification," which is not "forgiveness of sin," the relationship of law-keeping to Galatians 3:23-25. In any future responses, please specifically address the NT points or Scriptures I present, explaining their meaning--being true to their words and context, in light of your view of the Scriptures. Nothing else is actually responsive.

This is unresponsive to my post # 90; and post # 94 linked that prove your disregarding scripture context and subject matter. The rest of this section of your post is repetition already addressed above. I do not see much point in continuing a discussion with you to be honest if you continue to be unresponsive to my posts. Of course you are free to believe as you wish. We all answer only to God come judgement day according to the scriptures in John 12:47-48.

Take Care.

 

[Clare73]

Trouble is sin and law are not the same thing.

Strawman. . .

Non-responsive to the text, Galatians 3:23.

The scriptures actually state this in Romans 7:7 where it is written "What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. No, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet." So sin and the law are not the same thing according to the scriptures. All the law does is give us a knowledge of what sin is when Gods' law is broken because transgression of the law is sin (see 1 John 3:4; Romans 3:20; James 2:10-11). All you have posted here are a bunch of scripture taken out of context that does not support your claims here. The law is not the same as sin it only reveals sin to us when we break Gods' law. If we are obedient to God's law there is no sin because Gods' law is not broken. That is why Paul calls them Holy, just and good in Romans 7:12 and spiritual in Romans 7:14. Sin therefore is the problem not Gods' law that gives us a knowledge of what sin is and which God calls the standard of all righteousness when obeyed (Psalms 119:172).

Your response here...

Actually it was your post that was non-responsive to what you were responding to and Galatians 3:24 was addressed in detail further on in the same post you are quoting from and in the linked post you were responding to here.

According to the scripture Galatians 3:22-25 is all about Gods' forgiveness. As shown from the scriptures earlier comparing scripture by scripture in post # 90; and post # 94 linked which you have been non-responsive. The scriptures specifically show the purpose of Gods' law in leading us to Christ so that we might be forgiven through faith. I will not be repeating this again when you continue to ignore what was shown verbatim in the scriptures. The links are provided above if your interested in discussing what was shared with you there. For example, we already agree that Romans 3:20 and Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 all state that the purpose of Gods' law is to give us a knowledge of what sin is when we break it. Galatians 3:22 says that all of us have broken God's law which agrees with what Romans 3:9-19 says and that we all stand before God "under the law" guilty before God of sin. Galatians 3:23 simply says before we had any faith all we had was condemnation and death because of sin because we had broken God's law which agrees to Galatians 3:22 (context) and also agrees with Romans 3:19. Galatians 3:24 agrees with Galatians 3:22-23 and shows us that the law during this time before there was faith was our teacher leading us to Christ that we might seek His forgiveness through faith. While, Galatians 3:25 again agrees with the scripture context of Galatians 3:22-24 and shows that once we have faith and receive God's forgiveness of sins we are no longer standing before God "under the law" guilty of sin because we have been forgiven through faith that has come in Christ! The term "under the law" here is in context to not having faith standing guilty before God of sin. Compare this to Romans 3:9-19. It is not saying we are not under the law and have no need to obey Gods' law that would be sin which is the very definition of breaking God's law. Forgiveness of sin is the same as justification of sin.

more to come...

There was no response to "justified" in Galatians 3:24.

You still do not understand that justification is not about forgiveness, but about imputed righteousness after the forgiveness which is salvation.

Biblically demonstrate the error of my point regarding Hebrews 7:12-19.

I do not address links.

 

[Clare73]

Sorry I have no idea what your talking about here. I prefer what the scriptures teach. According to the scriptures, we are justified from sin when we receive Gods' forgiveness of sins. God's forgiveness and justification of sin are not separate from each other. This is demonstrated in Luke 18:10-14 where it is written; talking about the two men who went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee said to God in the temple, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. Then the publican standing afar off, would not even lift up so much his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. Jesus tells us here that this man went down to his house justified rather than the other. Why? Because he confessed his sins to God and Jesus says he was "justified" rather than the other. God's promise therefore is "If we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us for our sins and to cleans us from all unrighteousness." - 1 John 3:4.

Your repeating things that are not truthful here as Galatians 3:22-25 was addressed in detail in the very post you are quoting from.

Well you simply hand waived a whole section of a detailed scripture response in regards to Galatians 3:22-25 so let's not talk about that if you do not want to. Let's just focus on your little comment here that was not responsive to what you were quoting from. If God declares us to be righteous have we been forgiven for our sins? Perhaps you might like to explain from the scriptures how you can be justified and not receive God's forgiveness? God's forgiveness and justification of sins are not separated as already shown in Luke 18:10-14 and 1 John 1:9

I am sorry I have no idea what your talking about. According to the scriptures Luke 18:10-14 and 1 John 3:4). God's forgiveness and justification of sins are not separate Gods' forgiveness of sins leads to justification of sin that we receive when faith has come *Galatians 3:22-25. This is why the law leads us to Christ that we might be justified (forgiven) through faith. The Greek word used here is δικαιόω (dikaióō | G1344) and means to be declared righteous or innocent. We cannot be declared righteous or innocent if we have not received Gods' forgiveness of our sins.

I prefer the scriptures as shown earlier looking at the contexts of Galatians 3:22-25 that you simply disregarded and are non-responsive to in the very post you are quoting from.

I see, so you have changed your mind again and think that Hebrews 7 is talking about the 10 commandments and not the Priesthood even after being shown from the scripture contexts and subject matter that it is talking about the laws of the Priesthood because Priests could only come from the tribe of Levi and Jesus was of the tribe of Judah (Hebrews 7:11-28).

Really? Did you not say to be earlier that Hebrews 7 and Ephesians 2:15 is not talking about the 10 commandments? If you did we are in agreement right? If you are back to disagreement again then it is up to you to prove from the scriptures that Gods' 10 commandments are contained in "ordinances" (which in Greek mean civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical law) and you would need to show context and subject matter of Hebrews 7 and Ephesians 2:15 is talking about Gods' 10 commandments. This is something you have failed to do as you were shown already in earlier posts showing scripture context and subject matter of Hebrews 7 and Ephesians 2:15 is not talking about God's 10 commandments. I thought that you stated you were in agreement that Hebrews 7 and Ephesians 2:15 is not talking about the Decalogue (your post # 93). You stated no agreement for arguments sake. It seems like your backtracking.

Your deflecting again. You were provided a scripture verse breakdown of Galatians 3:22-25 scripture by scripture showing context and subject matter that you were not responsive to because the scripture context and subject matter you were not responsive to is in disagreement with you (see post # 90; and post # 94 linked)

Your response here...

You seem to be stuck in a loop here (some call circular reasoning). As posted in the section of the post you are quoting from I do not read in Galatians 3:22-25 that these scriptures are about being justified by law keeping at all have have shown why by providing scripture context and subject matter. Your reading law keeping into the scriptures. I see the scriptures as showing that the law teaches us that we are all guilty before God of sin (Galatians 3:22) because we have all broken Gods' law and that the purpose of Gods' law is to reveal what sin is when we break it and to leads us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith as shown from the scriptures in Galatians 3:22-25 (see post # 90; and post # 94 linked). You may want to consider the words of Jesus here when he says "they that be whole need not a physician but go learn what that means I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Do you know the meaning?

Your response here...

Non-responsive to the post you are quoting from.

Your question was answered perhaps you did not like the answer and the detailed scripture response provided that shows the purpose of Gods' law, Gods' grace, and being saved by faith that leads us to obedience as we are born again through the Spirit into God's new covenant promise?

In conclusion I have dealt with every scripture you have provided for your claims here showing that they are in disagreement with context and subject matter. Yet you have simply been non-responsive to these posts and scriptures that are in disagreement with you. Sorry but I do not believe you.

You never made claims of agreement for argument sake. You said in your own words Hebrews 7 and Ephesians 2:15 after I demonstrated scripture context and subject matter was not talking about the Decalogue. I can re-post exactly what you said if you want. Just let me know? I do not believe you have addressed any thing you have claimed in regards to Galatians 3:22-25. You were provided the scripture context and the subject matter that are in disagreement to your claims here and simply have chosen to be unresponsive to my posts and the scriptures that were shared with you proving this in post # 90; and post # 94 linked. So I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

Actually I note no such thing according to the scriptures. What comes first breaking God's law resulting in sin or the laws of the Priesthood and remission of sin through blood sacrifice?

Sure, but what law are you claiming has changed? As shown already the scripture context of Hebrews 7 shows that this is the law of the Priesthood not the Decalogue. The law needed to be changed because only Levites could be Priests and Jesus was of the tribe of Judah as shown in Hebrews 7:11-28. While the laws for remission of sins under the old covenant Priesthood were to be changed because they were all prophetic "shadow laws" pointing to God's sacrifice in Christ for the sins of the world once and for all (Hebrews 10:10). Hebrews 7 is talking about the changing of the laws of the Priesthood not God's 10 commandments.

This is unresponsive to my post # 90; and post # 94 linked that prove your disregarding scripture context and subject matter. The rest of this section of your post is repetition already addressed above. I do not see much point in continuing a discussion with you to be honest if you continue to be unresponsive to my posts. Of course you are free to believe as you wish. We all answer only to God come judgement day according to the scriptures in John 12:47-48.

Take Care.

See post #89 for agreement for argument's sake.

I do not address links.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Strawman. . .

Non-responsive to the text, Galatians 3:23.

There was no response to "justified" in Galatians 3:24.

You still do not understand that justification is not about forgiveness, but about imputed righteousness after the forgiveness which is salvation.

Biblically demonstrate the error of my point regarding Hebrews 7:12-19.

I do not address links.

I am sorry I do not believe you as shown why in the posts and scriptures that you have not been responsive to. Everything in your last two posts here (and elsewhere in our discussion) is repetition already addressed with detailed scriptures responses. So I do not feel the need to repeat myself again to you while you simply are not responsive and continue to ignore the content of my posts and scriptures shared only in love and as a help to you. Your claims here once again are not being truthful and non-responsive to the posts you are quoting from. I say this because you were even provided scripture showing that you cannot have justification without God's forgiveness because Gods' forgiveness of sin results in Gods justification of sin (Luke 18:10-14 and 1 John 3:4). Even the Greek word "justified" as shown earlier, means to be declared innocent and righteous. You cannot be declared innocent and righteous if you are still standing before God guilty of sin. We can only be declared righteous before God by receiving God's forgiveness through faith. I asked you many questions in this regard and in regards. You have ignored all of them. I have posted scripture contexts and subject matter which disagrees with you and you have simply been non-responsive. So I guess we will agree to disagree, as I am tired of having my posts and scripture content ignored by you.

Take care.