I'm starting to change my mind about the End Times (help!)

[Spiritual Jew]

There was not temple standing during the time of the Babylonian captivity agreed.

But "time of the end" is a term that fits with other bible passages... such as in Daniel 12:4, and Daniel 's contemporary Ezekiel in Ezekiel 38:4 and 38:16.

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

I see "the time of the end" as being the same as "the last days" and "the last time", which began long ago already.

Acts 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

 

[Hank77]

Remember; God does not change, He wanted sacrifices before and He will do so again. Isaiah 56:7, +

Psalm 40:6
Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, but my ears You have opened. Burnt offerings and sin offerings You did not require.

Hebrews 10:8
Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

 

[Spiritual Jew]

This idea simply does not hold water.

And, yet, you are completely unable to explain why. You can't be taken seriously unless you can explain how some physical temple built in the future could possibly be considered "the temple of God".

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Jesus did atone for our sins, but we keep on sinning!

Did He not atone for all of our sins? How does your view line up with a passage like this:

Hebrews 10:8 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law. 9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

He does not keep on dying, and the fact is we must continue to ask for forgiveness.
I do not claim to know how the requirements of God for our redemption works, but I do know that many scriptures say there will be a new Temple and sacrifices and offerings will be made in it.

You are obviously misinterpreting those scriptures because it's leading you to believe in something that would be a complete insult to the work of Christ on the cross.

Remember; God does not change, He wanted sacrifices before and He will do so again. Isaiah 56:7, +

For what reason? I showed you Ezekiel 45:15-17. The sacrifices mentioned there are for "the atonement of the people". That can't possibly happen in the future. Jesus's sacrifice is all anyone needs for atonement.

Denial of plainly stated scriptures is not a good look and to make nasty comments about a Prophesied Temple in Jerusalem during the end times, is foolishness.

You are denying plainly stated scripture in the book of Hebrews. You might want to try looking at the New Testament more often so that you can learn how we should understand the Old Testament. Your interpretations of the Old Testament prophecies contradict the entire New Testament.

 

[keras]

Psalm 40:6
Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, but my ears You have opened. Burnt offerings and sin offerings You did not require.

Hebrews 10:8
Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

This applies for the Christian age.
Many scriptures prove it isn't permanent.

And, yet, you are completely unable to explain why. You can't be taken seriously unless you can explain how some physical temple built in the future could possibly be considered "the temple of God".

This sort of accusation is your Modus Operandi.
I have posted the scriptures which prove my point. That you are incapable of seeing them is because people have believed false teachings.

 

[keras]

Will there be sacrifices in the new Temple?
When the Lord’s righteous people go to live in all of the Holy Land, soon after it is cleared and cleansed by the Lord’s Day of fiery wrath, Ezekiel 34:11-31, they will build a new Temple in Jerusalem, according to the details given in Ezekiel 40-46

Many Old Testament prophesies attest to this, how it will be built by men from far away, Zechariah 6:15, and it will be greater than the former ones. Haggai 2:9

The New Testament too, makes it clear there will be a Temple, 2 Thess. 2:4, Rev. 11:1-2, that will exist until the end of the Millennium, when God Himself will be the Temple. Revelation 21:22


We are told that during this age of Church dispensation, Christ is our high priest and we are the spiritual Temple, 2 Cor. 6:16 and no sacrifices are required. Hosea 9:4

Hebrews 9 & 10:1-21 are the scriptures that clearly tell us that Jesus made the once and forever sacrifice for the expiation of our sins. Now there is no Temple and Christians are His ‘body’ on earth. This is just for the time from the early church until the new Temple is built, when there will again be offerings and thanksgiving gifts made by the Lord’s holy people. Isaiah 56:1-8, Daniel 12:1, Revelation 7:9-14


Daniel 7:25 and Daniel 9:26-27 tells us how, in the last days, an invading leader will make a peace treaty with the holy people, but will break it and put a stop to the sacrifices and offerings. Obviously there will be sacrifices and offerings taking place, for him to stop them.

This is confirmed by the prophesies detailing how it will be during the period the righteous people of God will be living the Land before the Return of Jesus:


Psalms 51:18-19 Now Lord, show Your favour to Zion and rebuild Jerusalem. Then You will delight in the appointed sacrifices, young bulls will be offered in Your altar.

Jeremiah 17:24-26 Now, if you obey the Lord’s Commandments, then a ruler will again occupy David’s throne and Jerusalem will be inhabited forever. Then people will come bringing whole offerings, sacrifices as thank offerings to the Lord’s House.

Jeremiah 33:14-18 The days are coming when I shall bless Judah and Israel…….there will always be a Levitical Priest to burn the grain and other offerings every day.

Ezekiel 45:13-25 The details of and the dates for making all the sacrifices and offerings on the Altar of the Temple.

Zechariah 14:21…all who come to make sacrifice will use the holy pots in Jerusalem to boil the flesh of the sacrifice……

Isaiah 60:6-7 Livestock in droves will be in the Land to serve your needs, as acceptable offerings on My Altar and I will adorn My glorious Temple.


The context of these scriptures proves that all this will be for the last days’ period before the Return of Jesus. What will happen during the Millennium isn’t told to us, although there will be priest’s then. Revelation 20:6

But we know there will be no Temple in Eternity. Revelation 21:22

 

[Spiritual Jew]

This sort of accusation is your Modus Operandi.
I have posted the scriptures which prove my point.

You have proven that you don't know how to properly interpret many of the OT prophecies and you have proven that you don't care if you interpret them in such a way that contradicts New Testament scripture.

 

[wonderkins]

Jesus did atone for our sins, but we keep on sinning! He does not keep on dying, and the fact is we must continue to ask for forgiveness.
I do not claim to know how the requirements of God for our redemption works, but I do know that many scriptures say there will be a new Temple and sacrifices and offerings will be made in it.
Remember; God does not change, He wanted sacrifices before and He will do so again. Isaiah 56:7, +

Denial of plainly stated scriptures is not a good look and to make nasty comments about a Prophesied Temple in Jerusalem during the end times, is foolishness.

The implication of a future third is not plainly stated. In fact it's not there.

What nasty comment was made? A third temple keeps getting spoken of everywhere except in the Bible. Surely if there must be a third temple then the new testament would say that. Please show that. For sacrifices to start up again would be to say Hebrews 7:27 is wrong.

One thing we do know for certain is Jesus said the temple would be destroyed and no stone would be left on top another. 40 years later it happened, and 2000 years later it's still true.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Will there be sacrifices in the new Temple?
When the Lord’s righteous people go to live in all of the Holy Land, soon after it is cleared and cleansed by the Lord’s Day of fiery wrath, Ezekiel 34:11-31, they will build a new Temple in Jerusalem, according to the details given in Ezekiel 40-46

Many Old Testament prophesies attest to this, how it will be built by men from far away, Zechariah 6:15, and it will be greater than the former ones. Haggai 2:9

The New Testament too, makes it clear there will be a Temple, 2 Thess. 2:4, Rev. 11:1-2, that will exist until the end of the Millennium, when God Himself will be the Temple. Revelation 21:22


We are told that during this age of Church dispensation, Christ is our high priest and we are the spiritual Temple, 2 Cor. 6:16 and no sacrifices are required. Hosea 9:4

Hebrews 9 & 10:1-21 are the scriptures that clearly tell us that Jesus made the once and forever sacrifice for the expiation of our sins. Now there is no Temple and Christians are His ‘body’ on earth. This is just for the time from the early church until the new Temple is built, when there will again be offerings and thanksgiving gifts made by the Lord’s holy people. Isaiah 56:1-8, Daniel 12:1, Revelation 7:9-14


Daniel 7:25 and Daniel 9:26-27 tells us how, in the last days, an invading leader will make a peace treaty with the holy people, but will break it and put a stop to the sacrifices and offerings. Obviously there will be sacrifices and offerings taking place, for him to stop them.

This is confirmed by the prophesies detailing how it will be during the period the righteous people of God will be living the Land before the Return of Jesus:


Psalms 51:18-19 Now Lord, show Your favour to Zion and rebuild Jerusalem. Then You will delight in the appointed sacrifices, young bulls will be offered in Your altar.

Jeremiah 17:24-26 Now, if you obey the Lord’s Commandments, then a ruler will again occupy David’s throne and Jerusalem will be inhabited forever. Then people will come bringing whole offerings, sacrifices as thank offerings to the Lord’s House.

Jeremiah 33:14-18 The days are coming when I shall bless Judah and Israel…….there will always be a Levitical Priest to burn the grain and other offerings every day.

Ezekiel 45:13-25 The details of and the dates for making all the sacrifices and offerings on the Altar of the Temple.

Zechariah 14:21…all who come to make sacrifice will use the holy pots in Jerusalem to boil the flesh of the sacrifice……

Isaiah 60:6-7 Livestock in droves will be in the Land to serve your needs, as acceptable offerings on My Altar and I will adorn My glorious Temple.


The context of these scriptures proves that all this will be for the last days’ period before the Return of Jesus. What will happen during the Millennium isn’t told to us, although there will be priest’s then. Revelation 20:6

But we know there will be no Temple in Eternity. Revelation 21:22

Bruce McKerras July 2015

I can't believe you actually quoted yourself. LOL.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The implication of a future third is not plainly stated. In fact it's not there.

Agree.

What nasty comment was made?

None. He considers any comments that disagree with his beliefs to be nasty. It's ridiculous.

A third temple keeps getting spoken of everywhere except in the Bible. Surely if there must be a third temple then the new testament would say that. Please show that. For sacrifices to start up again would be to say Hebrews 7:27 is wrong.

Exactly. It clearly doesn't matter to him that he is contradicting Hebrews 7:27 as well as many other verses in Hebrews.

One thing we do know for certain is Jesus said the temple would be destroyed and no stone would be left on top another. 40 years later it happened, and 2000 years later it's still true.

Right. We are the temple of God now (2 Cor 6:16, Eph 2:19-22).

 

[parousia70]

Then who is the lawless one mentioned in 2nd Thessalonians 2:4 "who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God."

That would be Paul's Man of Sin/Son of Perdition. A completely separate and distinct entity from John's 'antichrist". There is not even one scripture that teaches these two Biblical personalities are the same entity. Not even one.

Just because he is not always called the antichrist does not mean it is not the same person.

So Peter could also be Paul then? Matthew could be Luke? James could be John?

We ought not place speculation above what scripture actually teaches. I hope we can agree on that.

Now, if you know of any scripture that teaches Pauls MoS and John's antichrist are the same entity, I'm all eyes...

It goes on to say he will be suppressed (by the Holy Spirit) until the Spirit is taken away.

Wow.... again, the scripture you are referring to SAYS nothing of the sort. You appear to be adding things to that scripture based on your opinion/speculation.

Here it is:
2 Thessalonians 3-8
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

I see you make the additional, extra biblical assumption that the "he who now restrains" is the Holy Spirit, but you are absolutely incorrect to claim "the Bible SAYS" it. Scripture does not elaborate on who/what the restrainer is. I think it’s dangerous to add our assumptions to what scripture does not teach, Especially if you’re going to add “thus says the lord” at the end of your speculation.

Also, you say the Bible SAYS "he WILL BE suppressed". Notice that the scripture SAYS he was "already at work" and was being "now restrained" - this was not future to Paul and the Thessalonians. It is clear from the passage itself that Paul is referencing an event taking place in his day, as an already alive, fully grown MAN, Was at that time being restrained from his takeover of the then standing temple.

I think you might benefit from taking a step back and really looking at what the actual scriptures SAY instead of merely parroting what you've been taught they say.

As for the melting pot thought, are you not referring to the same Jews who continually lament at the wailing wall?

Yes. They are either Converts themselves or descendants of Gentile Converts to the Post Christian, man made religion of the Talmud. They have no relationship to the pre desolation Hebrews. Not genetically, not politically and not religiously.

I do not believe that is a temple wall, but a Roman fort since the temple was completely destroyed and "no stone was left unturned."

You and I are in 100% agreement on that point.

 

[Douggg]

How could such a temple qualify to be called "the temple of God"? In what sense would it be God's temple?

Because the Jews will construct it with their intended purpose of it to be for their praise and worship of the One True God.

 

[Douggg]

I see "the time of the end" as being the same as "the last days" and "the last time", which began long ago already.

Acts 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

By 20/20 hindsight, we know that the first century was not the last days as being the time of the end. The first century was the last days as far as the temple of that time being made desolate, and Jerusalem being destroyed, and the Jews being taken into the nations - as the time of the Gentiles began.

The time of the end in Daniel 12:4 is when many will run to and fro, and knowledge increased. Both indicative of the time we live in, in the parable of the fig tree generation.

 

[parousia70]

The Gloss of Extravagantes of Pope John XXII says this:

But to believe that our Lord God the Pope the establisher of said decretal, and of this, could not decree, as he did decree, should be accounted heretical

You seem to be under the mistaken impression the fallible men who come and go, temporarily holding an appointed office, who do not live up to the honor and integrity of that office during their temporary tenure, somehow renders the office itself null and void.

 

[keras]

You have proven that you don't know how to properly interpret many of the OT prophecies and you have proven that you don't care if you interpret them in such a way that contradicts New Testament scripture.

I prove my beliefs with scriptures. That they contradict your beliefs, is your problem.

The implication of a future third is not plainly stated. In fact it's not there.

What nasty comment was made? A third temple keeps getting spoken of everywhere except in the Bible. Surely if there must be a third temple then the new testament would say that. Please show that

There has to be a Third Tempel; Jesus will reign from it during the Millennium. Zechariah 14:16-21

2 Thess 2:4 and Revelation 11:1-2 prove there will be a Temple in Jerusalem during the end times.

One thing we do know for certain is Jesus said the temple would be destroyed and no stone would be left on top another. 40 years later it happened, and 2000 years later it's still true.

The 2nd Temple was destroyed, as Jesus prophesied.

I can't believe you actually quoted yourself. LOL.

I quoted and explained scripture.
How do you explain the 22 Bible passages I posted? Just with your usual ignorance?

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

there

God's wrath takes place at different points during the great tribulation. But the vials of God's wrath begins when Satan is worshiped when he incarnates the statue image of the beast making it appear to come alive and speaks.



The 5th seal would be right before Matthew 24:29-30a, which is the 6th seal event, the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. Matthew 24:28 could be referring to the great tribulation martyrs.


The Day of the Lord lasts for eternity. It is the beginning years of it that are a time of unmatched trouble.

What we are going back and forth on discussing, is about the beginning years of trouble associated with the Day of the Lord - not the eternal wonderfulness of it.

The first part of the Day of the Lord begins with the ToD act by the Antichrist in 2Thessalonians2:4 - which triggers God's anger.

There have been many day of the Lord judgments in history already

 

[Original Happy Camper]

You seem to be under the mistaken impression the fallible men who come and go, temporarily holding an appointed office, who do not live up to the honor and integrity of that office during their temporary tenure, somehow renders the office itself null and void.

I stand by what the bible teaches, popery is the little horn, not the individual that occupies the office

 

[Original Happy Camper]

Isn't it through the Holy Spirit, we become the temple, so temple worship and sacrifice are no longer needed? When Christ died, the veil was torn from top to bottom. The spirit poured into believers at Pentecost.

For a long time I have been watching and waiting for a third temple to be built. I keep seeing news about a red heifer being found and all we need is the temple. So, does the Dome of the Rock need to fall? Will the third temple be built elsewhere? Is there any biblical evidence of a third temple or did the events already happen leading up to 70 AD?

Thank you to everyone who has answered in here so far!

There is no evidence in the bible for a third temple,

There are two basic errors in this thought of a third temple.

After Jesus died for or sins the references to Isreal in prophecy and the NT is spiritual Isreal otherwise we gentiles would not be able to claim the gift of life eternal.

The second one is that the last week of Daniels 70 week prophecy is disconnected from the other 69 weeks and transported to the end of time.

Because of these errors the thought of a third temple has to be be created by taking Bible statements and using them to support these two errors.


GOD be with you in your search for the truth

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

The church is the Ezekiel's temple, the living water is the spread of the gospel of the kingdom worldwide

 

[Saucy]

You tell us. That isn't taught in scripture.

I'm here asking questions based upon what I was taught (and now questioning what I was taught). Clearly I don't believe I have all the answers. If you do know what was taught, please share it.