I'm officially giving up re: Original Sin

[Cary.Melvin]

So does that mean that Orthodox believe that children that die before the age of reason and that are not Baptised will still go to Heaven because they have no guilt?

 

[Padraig]

So does that mean that Orthodox believe that children that die before the age of reason and that are not Baptised will still go to Heaven because they have no guilt?

They enter to the joy of the risen Lord, yes.

 

[Matrona]

So does that mean that Orthodox believe that children that die before the age of reason and that are not Baptised will still go to Heaven because they have no guilt?

What 'age of reason'?

We believe God is merciful to them, but that they are still subject to His judgment, they don't get an automatic ticket to heaven.

 

[Cary.Melvin]

What 'age of reason'?

We believe God is merciful to them, but that they are still subject to His judgment, they don't get an automatic ticket to heaven.

Based on the revelation we have been given by God of his justice, How will God judge a person that is not within the Body of Christ (not Baptised)? Will they be found guilty of the sins of mankind?

 

[Matrona]

Based on the revelation we have been given by God of his justice, How will God judge a person that is not within the Body of Christ (not Baptised)?

I will not speculate in that way.

Will they be found guilty of the sins of mankind?

No. One's sins are one's own.

 

[Mary of Bethany]

So does that mean that Orthodox believe that children that die before the age of reason and that are not Baptised will still go to Heaven because they have no guilt?

Recently in our parish, a 6-week old who had not yet been baptized died of SIDS. We believe he is indeed in heaven, and able to pray for those of us still struggling here on earth.

Mary

 

[Cary.Melvin]

Recently in our parish, a 6-week old who had not yet been baptized died of SIDS. We believe he is indeed in heaven, and able to pray for those of us still struggling here on earth.

Mary

That is a nice thought, but how does that fit with Jesus' teachings in John 3?

1: Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicode'mus, a ruler of the Jews.
2: This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, "Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that you do, unless God is with him."
3: Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
4: Nicode'mus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
5: Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6: That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7: Do not marvel that I said to you, `You must be born anew.'
8: The wind blows where it wills, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know whence it comes or whither it goes; so it is with every one who is born of the Spirit."

 

[Xpycoctomos]

Cary,

How does that fit in with the Theif on the Cross?

 

[prodromos]

So children don't need Jesus to save them? If they are not guilty of anything, why should they?

We tend to focus on salvation from our sins because most of us have so many we need saving from, but our salvation is primarily from DEATH. There is one particular verse which states clearly that we have a tendancy to sin because of the fact that we are going to die. I can't think of it off the top of my head but you will find many references to our salvation being from death all through Paul's epistles.

John

 

[Padraig]

Cary,

How does that fit in with the Theif on the Cross?

And also, the words of Christ in Matthew:

Matt 18.1-5: At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?" And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them, and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. "Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me;

Matt 19.13-14: Then children were brought to him that he might lay his hands on them and pray. The disciples rebuked the people; but Jesus said, "Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven."

Children are not held to the same standards as adults. They are far closer to God than even the holiest monks, at least I've heard monks say so. In some ancient traditions of the Church, children were always allowed to approach the Mysteries before anyone else, though this doesn't happen much nowadays.

 

[Rilian]

In some ancient traditions of the Church, children were always allowed to approach the Mysteries before anyone else, though this doesn't happen much nowadays.

Padraig, at my parish the first to commune are the kids. They are also the first up to venerate the cross.

I've also noticed the kids will always commune if at church, not all of the adults will.

 

[Xpycoctomos]

Not to say that this isn't true for you Padraig, but at nearly all parishes I have gone to, this is defintely the practice (my experience, however, is limited mostly to Slavic Parishes so...)

 

[Padraig]

Not to say that this isn't true for you Padraig, but at nearly all parishes I have gone to, this is defintely the practice (my experience, however, is limited mostly to Slavic Parishes so...)

It has been my experience, but I've been to several parishes where this isn't the case. Not sure if it's an ethnic thing or not.

 

[Marjorie]

Based on the revelation we have been given by God of his justice, How will God judge a person that is not within the Body of Christ (not Baptised)? Will they be found guilty of the sins of mankind?

Even your '94 Catechism seems to be more merciful than what you are implying:

As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them," allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

 

[Marjorie]

That is a nice thought, but how does that fit with Jesus' teachings in John 3?

"God has bound salvation to the Sacrament of Baptism, but He Himself is not bound by His sacraments" (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1257.)

Of course baptism is required for salvation, but God will have mercy on whom He has mercy.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

 

[Servus Iesu]

Cary, even if we had never sinned, God would still have taken on human flesh in the person of Jesus Christ, although He would probably have had a different name. Our salvation is more than just reversing the effects of sin. It is about uniting God and man. A baby, although sinless, is still not in the state that God ultimately planned for that person to be in. So a sinless baby still needs Christ, since that baby is not fully united to God as it will be after the resurrection.

That is just one theological opinion. Why would Jesus Christ sacrifice by becoming Incarnate if Redemption was not needed though? Couldn't Adam have been divinized thus being the one Mediator between God and Man? Then Jesus could have gone on for all eternity as divine alone.

 

[Servus Iesu]

Beats me, as every explanation of the IC I've heard relies on "she was exempt only from original sin proper, not the consequences of original sin like sorrow and death"... and it's like... but isn't that like everyone???

Maybe a Catholic can clarify on this point.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

The Immaculate Conception's main effect is that the Blessed Virgin and theotokos was not subject to concupiscence.

 

[Rilian]

The Immaculate Conception's main effect is that the Blessed Virgin and theotokos was not subject to concupiscence.

Which certainly lessens her ascetic achievement (were the dogma true).

 

[Servus Iesu]

Which certainly lessens her ascetic achievement (were the dogma true).

Mary remained holy because Christ has the power to keep His own. The First Adam failed to protect Eve from the serpent where the Second Adam succeeds. This doesn't mean it wasn't an achievement on the part of the Virgin to remain holy. She had to exercise her free will in order to utter the fiat to God's will. Mary could have sinned in the manner of Eve but she did not.

We don't view the sinlessness of the Virgin as an ascetic achievement. I could easily ask the same thing about Jesus. Does Jesus have concupiscence? Was He subject to the law of sin (fomas peccati)? The fact is that it was IMPOSSIBLE for Jesus to sin because He was divine whereas the possibility actually existed for Mary, only she would have had to sin in the manner that Eve did.

 

[Rilian]

Mary remained holy because Christ has the power to keep His own.

The treasury of merits is not an Orthodox view of what happened.

The First Adam failed to protect Eve from the serpent where the Second Adam succeeds. This doesn't mean it wasn't an achievement on the part of the Virgin to remain holy. She had to exercise her free will in order to utter the fiat to God's will. Mary could have sinned in the manner of Eve but she did not.

The achievement of the Theotokos was not limited to her saying "yes" to God. It was in the entirety of the life she lived. The exercise of her free will was not just one act. The idea that God removed a part of the humanity we are all born with clearly does lessen what she achieved.

We don't view the sinlessness of the Virgin as an ascetic achievement.

There we differ, which is odd because many people from OBOB have told us we believe the same thing regarding this topic.

I could easily ask the same thing about Jesus. Does Jesus have concupiscence? Was He subject to the law of sin (fomas peccati)? The fact is that it was IMPOSSIBLE for Jesus to sin because He was divine whereas the possibility actually existed for Mary, only she would have had to sin in the manner that Eve did.

Christ had a human and a divine will.