im no longer a christian... anyone understand?

I <3 Abraham · Jul 26, 2005

Jeez guys, we've gotten way off topic and are just harshing on each other now! Endure2, I am sorry for this stuff you're (hopefully) still reading through. The letter X? Who does or does not have too much aggression to be helpful? Come on fellows! Get it together!

"" · Jul 26, 2005

The letter X? Who does or does not have too much aggression to be helpful? Come on fellows! Get it together!

Yes exactly. The OP was about somebody who wanted to look for hope outside of Christ.

Endure2 said:
i posted this elsewhere, please read it if you will and reply if you can feel me... im trying to find hope outside of Christ, becuase i dont believe in him anymore.

im not asking anyone to help me bash christianity... i was just venting and i also dont want to be a part of trying to dismantle this wide spread belief system im no longer a part of... i will never be a part of these people who harass and try to tear down christians.

but does anyone feel me?

its been about 2 weeks since i changed... im still kinda unsure and worried, but it doesnt look like i have any options...
does anyone understand how i feel?

What followed were posts by Christians, explaining that hope is to be found only in Christ the Savior, and discussions about what happens to those who leave the Faith.

These things are very important, and we are told as Christians to walk boldly in our faith, speaking out against the abandonment of it.

What followed then were distractive posts... attacks on those who did as God would have us do. We respond to those attacks, again with faith and hope.

Sometimes it's necessary to take a detour when discussing topics here, but the detour, if it is God's will that you take it, will always lead you back to Him.

Praise God.

John 14:8-14

8Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."
9Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. 12I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it. "

Inside Edge · Jul 26, 2005

Adiya said:
First: I could tell you to stop belittling the sacrifice that Jesus made for you...I could tell you that if you turn your back on God now, He'll turn His back on you at the 2nd Coming of Christ...I could remind you that if you are telling the truth, and you were really a Christian, then you should know that to many, you are the only Christ they will ever see...I could tell you that you were the one that was supposed to lead them to Jesus, and when you go before God for the final judgement, he'll show you how many souls were lost because of your decision to walk away from Him...In telling you all of these things...your decision to leave Christianity, and abandon Jesus, affects many more persons than yourself.

Firstly, by typing it out for him to read, you did in fact just tell him all of those things. So your repeated "I coulds" come off as rather patronizing. Hence the accusations by others to which you've taken exception. Secondly, I believe the OP didn't actually ask for the pamphlet Christian lecture you put forth, so you didn't really respect what he had to say. What he said and asked specifically was:

i was just venting and i also dont want to be a part of trying to dismantle this wide spread belief...but does anyone feel me? does anyone understand how i feel? ... i dont want rehtoric, does anyone understand? I'm not trying to bash christianity or make jokes of it, i dont hate it. I'm wondering if theres anyone out there who isnt one for sincere honest reasons that can talk to me maturely and maybe help me understand what im going through.

He specifically asked only for mature discussion from people who might understand how he feels - and from what it looks like, from non-Christians to boot. Not only were your thoughts the typical unsympathetic, Christian schlock, they were not even of the substance he requested. They revealed a complete lack of consideration for his request.

Adiya said:
I do not know, nor do I understand your situation/circumstances, but it appears to me that you require a great deal of attention right now. What I get out of your statement is that you do not feel that you have received adequate attention from God in order for you to continue to acknowledge His existence

So instead of the understanding he was looking for at this particular point in time, not only do you speak away from his request, but decide to explain your admittedly uninformed opinion as to why he's letting go of his faith (with a wonderfully simplistic conclusion I might add - that he's basically gunning for attention). Nice.

Adiya said:
Would you feel the love of Christ in my words...and realize what it is you are giving away, and how many more will suffer because of your choice?

I sure don't hear or feel much love in your words, and it would be all the more difficult to "feel the love" if I were having a crisis of faith.

At this rate, the atheists will have more success in leading him back to Christ then the Christians will.

John812 · Jul 26, 2005

Hello Endure2,

I once thought about there being another way than Jesus. I had a strong relationship with God, but I was wondering if Jesus was the only way, if perhaps there was another religion and another path to follow. My relationship with God deteriorated very quickly when I lost my confidence in Jesus as the only way. I felt the Holy Spirit's presence leaving me. What a horrible state I was in, like I was alone and empty. I ran back to our Lord and Savior - and He welcomed me back into His arms and the Holy Spirit returned to me once more. There is no other way to God, for,

"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." - Jesus, John 14:6

Perhaps you are experiencing the same thing Endure2, an emptiness caused by turning away from Jesus. Run back to Him and He will lovingly welcome you back into His flock

God Bless ya!

Blessed2003 · Jul 26, 2005

Endure2 said:
i posted this elsewhere, please read it if you will and reply if you can feel me... im trying to find hope outside of Christ, becuase i dont believe in him anymore.

im not asking anyone to help me bash christianity... i was just venting and i also dont want to be a part of trying to dismantle this wide spread belief system im no longer a part of... i will never be a part of these people who harass and try to tear down christians.

but does anyone feel me?

its been about 2 weeks since i changed... im still kinda unsure and worried, but it doesnt look like i have any options...
does anyone understand how i feel?

Hey Endure2! I've just gotten back from a couple of months away, and I am so sorry to hear you are suffering, your posts always made me feel encouraged. I can understand how you feel and I've wondered about this too. The whole experience is too complicated to explain, but once when I was really depressed, and totally feeling rejected by people who are Christians and religion, which honestly at the time I did not know to seperate Jesus from people, or religion, I thought they were all one in the same, and now I don't believe they are. I had what I call a Spiritual experience and at the time what I now call Jesus was what I called the "Lover of my Soul" I didn't exactly know why I called 'Him' that, but I did, so it made me wonder if that which I then knew as God was infact who is known as Jesus, and later, believe it or not, I read something written by some one who is known as a prophet, and what the Lover of my Soul had said to me was repeated, and then get this, it said this is He, the Lover of your Soul, He is Jesus!!
Now, I believe.
If you ever need a friend, pm me.
Much Love
B~

FSTDT · Jul 26, 2005

Endure,

Almost everyone here is going to try to persuade you to become a Christian again, they arent going to help you in any useful way. Based on what I've read in this thread, many of them seem to believe no one's life can have meaning or purpose unless it happens in the same terms as their own life.

Endure2 said:
i posted this elsewhere, please read it if you will and reply if you can feel me... im trying to find hope outside of Christ, becuase i dont believe in him anymore.

im not asking anyone to help me bash christianity... i was just venting and i also dont want to be a part of trying to dismantle this wide spread belief system im no longer a part of... i will never be a part of these people who harass and try to tear down christians.

but does anyone feel me?

its been about 2 weeks since i changed... im still kinda unsure and worried, but it doesnt look like i have any options...
does anyone understand how i feel?

Among other things, a few burdens should be lifted off your shoulders, most significantly you no longer have to worry about good friends and family burning and being tortured for eternity for simply failing to affirm belief in God.

Now, where to find hope: do you have a job, a family, friends? These all things that should give you something to live for that exist outside of you. And what about any goals you have, any personal pleasures you've sought, or anything? These are things that give your life meaning that comes from yourself.

You see, things are only worth hoping for if you can value them. This is true for everyone, even for people who believe in an afterlife (because someone might not find an afterlife to have much worth or meaning with the knowledge that everyone else they know is suffering for eternity).

Meaning and purpose is anything you want it to be, its anything you find valuable. Sometimes it can small or trivial, like wanting to be the life of the party all the time. Sometimes it can be very personal, like wanting to live life so that when you die, you arent just another nameless, faceless, expendable lump of flesh on this planet. Sometimes it can be profound and deep, like wanting to change humanity for the better, for the sake of everyone who will live.

Hope this helps, Endure2

midnightbirdgirl · Jul 26, 2005

Endure, first, I understand what you are saying. I cannot judge where you have ben or what made you stop walking with Christ. Maybe you never really were. I cannot tell you that hope can be found outside of Christ because, that just isn't true. But I can tell you I had times where, I felt dead to Christ, and lost. Like when I prayed I was praying to the air.
I came to realize that God is not there to convince me, to prove to me anything. He does not need me I need Him.
I spend years lost and looking. The more I studied to more I came to the only logical conclusion that God is real. But He is not the God of my design, I am thhe child of His.
Atheists will argue that educated people cannot believe, but most learned people do, including scientists.
If you could maybe explain why you have become dispondant. It might be easier to answer.

Be blessed,
MBG

Bevlina · Jul 26, 2005

This thread has been moved from P&M to SBNC.

"" · Jul 26, 2005

Among other things, a few burdens should be lifted off your shoulders, most significantly you no longer have to worry about good friends and family burning and being tortured for eternity for simply failing to affirm belief in God.

Some people take out credit cards, and then decide that they don't have to worry about paying the money back. They change their phone numbers, move, etc., thinking "wow... I'm so glad I don't have to worry about those bills anymore", but that doesn't mean the bills disappeared or stopped being real. In reality, their bad credit will catch up to them. In reality, people who don't believe accept Christ will be forever seperated from God, because Jesus is the only way.

FSTDT · Jul 27, 2005

Adiya,

Adiya said:
While it is true that some Christians do agree with you, it is also true that some see the use of an X in place of Christ, as the non-believers way of attempting to diminish the significance of Jesus Christ altogether.

You look too much into this. Its just an abbreviation, darlin, not an insult - even Christians use it. Its like using "USians" in place of "Americans".

funnyguy1 · Jul 27, 2005

Endure2 said:
i posted this elsewhere, please read it if you will and reply if you can feel me... im trying to find hope outside of Christ, becuase i dont believe in him anymore.

im not asking anyone to help me bash christianity... i was just venting and i also dont want to be a part of trying to dismantle this wide spread belief system im no longer a part of... i will never be a part of these people who harass and try to tear down christians.

but does anyone feel me?

its been about 2 weeks since i changed... im still kinda unsure and worried, but it doesnt look like i have any options...
does anyone understand how i feel?

ok

Welgaia · Jul 27, 2005

Adiya said:
Some people take out credit cards, and then decide that they don't have to worry about paying the money back. They change their phone numbers, move, etc., thinking "wow... I'm so glad I don't have to worry about those bills anymore", but that doesn't mean the bills disappeared or stopped being real. In reality, their bad credit will catch up to them. In reality, people who don't believe accept Christ will be forever seperated from God, because Jesus is the only way.

Are you preaching to the athiest posters on this thread or to the OP, to which you ought to be responding? I'd gladly spar with you, Adiya, but this is not the time nor place.

Endure2, I too came here for guidance. But on this site you'll find the worst representation of what religion is, particularly Christianity. I suggest you meet with real people rather than isolated broken-records trapped in cyber-space. Go to the library. Visit a temple. Listen to the wisdom of others but draw your own conclusions. If someone is trying to force you into belief, walk away. Above all else gaurd your free will and mind and decide for yourself how to live. Just some friendly advice for your journey.

mamabear4 · Jul 27, 2005

Endure2 has become very quiet. I suppose it doesn't feel the best to be the rope in our tug of war.

Ledifni · Jul 27, 2005

I <3 Abraham said:
*WARNING, RAMBLE APPROACHING*

Endure2:

Gotta say, I'm at a totally different point than you are in my faith. My father is a minister, but I was never baptised, he never brought us to church, I listened to OT bible stories at bed time because they are great freakin kid's stories (daniel and david and Joseph and such)! I began to be want to know God as a result of reading Kierkegaard's fear and trembling (hence my handle) and have since been reading the bible and contemplating grad school in theology. The way that you talk about your own problems with faith seems so classic to me (not a slur, I was a classicist in school, no compliment higher than being a classic!) and distinctly human. We want to KNOW, not just to believe, not to have faith, not to hope, we want to KNOW, NOW.

Heck, I'm with you, few things irritate me as badly as pentecostals (sorry guys, nothing personal) telling me that I'm wrong about the bible because the holy spirit hasn't moved me. But that is a personal failing, greed for God's attention really. I would like to feel some sort of magical hand on my shoulder, maybe a whispering voice. I mean, come on! It's not like I'm asking for a talking burning bush or something! But, right now I feel so young in my faith that I just cant imagine saying "I've tried EVERYTHING and that stubborn God just wont talk to me!". I'm sure that many MANY monks and nuns throughout history have been driven nearly mad by this silent God that we worship. In order to avoid an earnest plea to God to speak to me (seems terrifying to me, think of the let-down, yeesh), whenever I desire God to make himself known to me, I just think of Abraham and the three days he spent riding to Mount Moriah, never speaking to God. I think of how much he must have desired that God would reverse his pronouncement, how much he must have wanted to beg God to spare his son, how much he would rather just kill himself in order to spare his son. Instead Abraham does as he is told, silently, faithfully for three days. By so doing, God reverses his own command FOR ABRAHAM'S SAKE, without even being asked! My own desire to call out to God is miniscule compared to Abraham's and he did what was seemly, his gift was nothing short of a miracle. Anyhow, if I get started on father Abraham I'll talk your ear off. I wish you all the best in your life.

I don't understand this reasoning. You're saying that people shouldn't get discouraged just because God is dead silent -- but isn't it quite likely that the reason he's silent is that he isn't there?

I <3 Abraham · Jul 27, 2005

Ledifni said:
I don't understand this reasoning. You're saying that people shouldn't get discouraged just because God is dead silent -- but isn't it quite likely that the reason he's silent is that he isn't there?

Yes, yes it is, hence the OP's question. It would be easier for us to believe in God if he treated us like he did the tribes of Israel in exile: He was a big black cloud that followed them around and yelled at them frequently. But, just because one way is easy doesn't mean that it is the best way, or the only way. Saint John of the Cross (a contemplative Christian monk) in his book Dark Night of the Soul called periods in one's life such as the one Endure2 describes spiritual aridities. He was talking about those times in which the spiritual pleasures that come from prayer or conversion cease to bring pleasure.

The reason that he came to through INTENSE meditative prayer and discipline for this suddenly arid spiritual climate was that God was holding back the pleasant influence of the holy spirit ON PURPOSE. But why would God do that, you ask? In order to bring him from a childish faith that requires constant reassurance to one that can deal with the harsh realities of life that a follower of God will have to face. Personal doubts as to God's existence, questions about evil in the world, anger at injustice, confusion over his will: all of those things can shatter a person's faith if it needed reassurances every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

I dont know if Endure is still reading this thread but if you are: I think it's impossible to just "drop" being Christian. You can stop going to church, stop reading the bible etc etc. But I find myself often feeling a great desire to talk about it, to talk about Him. Anyhow, I hope this thread hasn't turned you off Christians forever! Peace and good luck to you

-J

StromRider · Jul 27, 2005

Adiya said:
An X was also used by many in times when belief in Christ was punishable by death (those times are nearly upon us again).

Are you referring to some place such as Iran or Saudi Arabia? You surely can't be referring to the US can you?

I'll wait for your answer to reply because I must be understanding this wrong. It just can't mean what it appears to.

mamabear4 · Jul 27, 2005

When I was going through my dry spell, questioning the existence of God, feeling like I was the world's worst hypocrite, worst sinner, worst everything, wondering why in the world I had even been born, why I was still here, etc, miserable etc, and excruciating ect, I finally realized that God, wherever He was, Whomever He was, Whatever He was, had to be accepted by faith. He is a Spirit, and we must come to Him in Spirit and in truth. I didn't know that part, but when I came to Him in that way, I discovered that He'd been at my elbow all along, patiently waiting for me to discover that. I don't know if God will show Himself to anyone else like he did to me, but I do know that He is no respecter of persons. He loves us all alike, no matter what we believe, no matter what we want from Him, no matter how life is turning out for us. He does not change according to our beliefs or circumstances, and that is a huge relief to know.

Ledifni · Jul 27, 2005

I <3 Abraham said:
Yes, yes it is, hence the OP's question. It would be easier for us to believe in God if he treated us like he did the tribes of Israel in exile: He was a big black cloud that followed them around and yelled at them frequently. But, just because one way is easy doesn't mean that it is the best way, or the only way. Saint John of the Cross (a contemplative Christian monk) in his book Dark Night of the Soul called periods in one's life such as the one Endure2 describes spiritual aridities. He was talking about those times in which the spiritual pleasures that come from prayer or conversion cease to bring pleasure.

The reason that he came to through INTENSE meditative prayer and discipline for this suddenly arid spiritual climate was that God was holding back the pleasant influence of the holy spirit ON PURPOSE. But why would God do that, you ask? In order to bring him from a childish faith that requires constant reassurance to one that can deal with the harsh realities of life that a follower of God will have to face. Personal doubts as to God's existence, questions about evil in the world, anger at injustice, confusion over his will: all of those things can shatter a person's faith if it needed reassurances every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

I dont know if Endure is still reading this thread but if you are: I think it's impossible to just "drop" being Christian. You can stop going to church, stop reading the bible etc etc. But I find myself often feeling a great desire to talk about it, to talk about Him. Anyhow, I hope this thread hasn't turned you off Christians forever! Peace and good luck to you

-J

But that's all despite the point, isn't it? If God is silent because he doesn't exist, then prayer and meditation and going to church are all meaningless activities.

I mean, your response doesn't really solve the issue of God's silence. You seem to be saying, "Yes, you're right, he clearly isn't there, which just goes to show that we should work harder on believing anyway."

EDIT: Please don't take this as an attack. I'm an atheist because nobody has ever been able to reasonably justify belief in God to me, and eventually the faith I was running on just... ran out. I'd like to hear your answers because who knows, maybe you do have some. But it does not ring true to hear, "Believe even if everything seems to point to God's absence, because that just means you aren't believing hard enough."

I <3 Abraham · Jul 27, 2005

Ledifni said:
But that's all despite the point, isn't it? If God is silent because he doesn't exist, then prayer and meditation and going to church are all meaningless activities.

I mean, your response doesn't really solve the issue of God's silence. You seem to be saying, "Yes, you're right, he clearly isn't there, which just goes to show that we should work harder on believing anyway."

EDIT: Please don't take this as an attack. I'm an atheist because nobody has ever been able to reasonably justify belief in God to me, and eventually the faith I was running on just... ran out. I'd like to hear your answers because who knows, maybe you do have some. But it does not ring true to hear, "Believe even if everything seems to point to God's absence, because that just means you aren't believing hard enough."

I don't think that the term belief has any place in a healthy relationship with God. I "believe" in the law of universal gravitation: I read Newton's Principia as well as the Electrodynamics of Moving Bodies and a teensy bit of the general theory of relaitivity. I put in my time and now I can believe in gravity without it being an empty belief, I know what it is I believe in. To say that you "believe" in God is one of two things, a missuse of the word belief, or a Herculean undertaking that isn't even fruitful. You used the term "faith", but I believe you used it almost as a kind of fuel gauge of someone's belief in God, and right now you are running on "E".

I define faith in this manner: One has faith in God in the same way that one has faith in a cause. A faithful crusader for human rights works tirelessly for equality not because they can see that equality exists, but PRECISELY because they cannot see it and desperately desire that they could.

That, of course, is only an analogy. Faith is a kind of desire, as far as I understand it, and desire is what drives people to live their lives in pursuit of something. No one obsessively pursued science because they already knew the answer to the questions that haunted their studies. A person can be faithful for any number of reasons. Some people become fixated on the idea of salvation, worrying themselves over judgement day and their place in heaven. Others, like myself, become fixated on the desire to find God in paradox, trying to understand silence rather than cry out for speech. And others, the admirable ones, find in their faith a great drive to help those in pain and poverty and sadness, upturning their entire lives to help people who could never repay them God bless these living angels of mercy.

If you are interested at all in reading a brilliant man's exegesis and praise of God's silence, check out Soren Kierkegaard's Fear and Trembling. One of the best books ever written in theology.

Im_A · Jul 27, 2005

Endure2 said:
i posted this elsewhere, please read it if you will and reply if you can feel me... im trying to find hope outside of Christ, becuase i dont believe in him anymore.

im not asking anyone to help me bash christianity... i was just venting and i also dont want to be a part of trying to dismantle this wide spread belief system im no longer a part of... i will never be a part of these people who harass and try to tear down christians.

but does anyone feel me?

its been about 2 weeks since i changed... im still kinda unsure and worried, but it doesnt look like i have any options...
does anyone understand how i feel?

i know how you feel. i have been a Christian for 11 plus years now. and needless to say, my views/theology have changed. some may call me unorthodox, heretical or whatever. but i'm happy with the changes i'm going through. i'm happy with how life is coming together.

if you would ever like to talk, feel free to pm me, and we'll talk and i'll give you a brief about me and if you can find any fruit for your own life, feel free to disect and take as you want God Bless you! <><

im no longer a christian... anyone understand?

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