I'm confused

[arunma]

What planet have you been living in? The Taliban were not "lawles men". Women can't do that, women can't do this. Those were "laws" weren't they?

By the way, the Afghan war was more a war of vengence. No 9/11, no Afghan war. Just like WW2. No Pearl Harbour, no American involvement.

Turn the other cheek... my a$$-cheek.

Christians did turn the other cheek. I haven't lauched an Afghani crusade and attacked the Taliban with cross daggers. The American government attacked Afghanistan. America isn't Christendom. America isn't even a Christian nation. Our country is purely secular. No Christian (that I know of, anyway) attacked Afghanistan in the name of Jesus Christ. There were many Christians in the American military, but these men obeyed their military leaders; military service is not a sin. It was our secular leaders who decided to go to war with Afghanistan. America's actions do not represent the actions of the Christian church. God works in perfect silence to move the nations to do his will.

What you don't understand is that Christianity isn't like Islam. In Islam, government and religion are one and the same. In Christianity, the idea of a theocracy is foreign. The only theocracy that has ever existed was Israel, and it existed under God's direct reign. In order to have a theocracy, one must obey the Law of Moses, which Jesus has fulfilled. Theocracy can only exist when Jesus returns to restore the Kingdom to Israel. Until that time, there's no such thing as a Christian state. The people who went to Afghanistan went as Americans, not as Christians. The fact that some soldiers happened to be Christian is not relevant.

By the way, isn't foul language prohibited by Islam (as it is in Christianity)? If so, then why did you use it?

 

[Cerridwen]

Good luck on your spiritual quest, Tiffy Too. I went through many of the questions & confusion you are going through now prior to my deconversion. For an interesting view on reincarnation in the Bible, check out this link www.near-death.com/experiences/origen03new.html . There is plenty in the Bible to support the idea that John the Baptist was the reincarnated Elijah.
Karma (in the sense of reaping what one sows) & reincarnation always made more sense to me as well. Everything else goes through cycles of life, death, & rebirth-it's only logical to assume that we do as well. I think the concept of getting back what you send out is much more important in human goodness than is the idea of some far off punishment after one has died or being given a trip to "Heaven" for accepting Christianity while on death row after a lifetime of causing others pain & torment.
As for the "eye for an eye" bit- "An eye for an eye will make the whole world blind"~Ghandi I tend to agree.

Love & Blessings, Cerridwen*

 

[Iron Lion]

I don't know where to post this, but in the interest of complying with the rules, I will post it here.

I accepted Christ as my Savior 30 years ago. My faith has waned and waxed over the years. At one point, I wanted to move to Anaheim CA to support Robert Schuller in his work. Over the years, I have really thought about my beliefs and always end up conflicted. I had a a lot of bad experiences with fundamentalist Christianity, and it sort of turned me off. It would be so much easier for me if I could believe as many do, but I have too many questions. Each Easter I really try to separate the bad feelings I have about Christianity from who Jesus really was and what he represented, but I find it impossible to get past the fundamentalist voices in my head, which just makes me avoid the whole subject.

Compounded with this, intuitively I tend to lean toward a belief in reincarnation and Karma. It's the only thing that makes sense to me. I have never understood the whole concept of why Christ died for our sins on the cross. I don't get this anymore than I get calculus (and I only squeaked by with a C in that class, after three attempts at getting through it).

I need to come to terms with something that makes sense to me. I believe in God and never question that. It's Jesus I have a problem with, although intellectually I believe in his teachings and think he was a great man, if not divine.

Here's where I get tripped up. Why would a loving God send people to hell simply by virtue of the fact they are practicing a religion that they were raised to believe in, and indoctrinated as fully as some Christians are. Also, I believe when we pass on our soul lives on, but that we go to the other side. I don't believe in the traditional concept of heaven and hell. Quite frankly, if there is a hell it's here on earth. I don't know if any of you have read any of what Sylvia Browne has to say on the afterlife, but it makes perfect sense to me. It also makes sense to me that we return to this earth to learn lessons unlearned, in order to perfect our souls and ultimately become one with God.

So...what to do. I need to reconcile all of this and cannot. Any thoughts or different perspectives are welcome, although I'd appreciate it if someone could explain things to me in a way that doesn't just quote bible verses. I have read the New Testament and all the verses and still don't get a lot of it.

Too, given the fact I accepted Christ so many years ago, but my beliefs have evolved over time, does this make me a Christian or a non-Christian? I see so many horrible things done in the name of Christianity, and it makes me think I cannot subscribe to a religion where certain things are overlooked. I am a liberal and opposed to the policies of this current administration, in spite of the fact that George Bush professes to be a Christian. To me, Jesus would not want us bombing innocents, especially considering Bush inasmuch admitted that Iraq had nothing to do with 911. How do we move forward thinking that we are doing the right thing, when I know in my heart Jesus was about peace, love and tolerance.

I am confused.

The biggest problem that people face in your case is trying to find a faith that "suits" their own beliefs. The problem is that its not how it works. God has givin us Jesus Christ as our saviour (i know many here will dispute this) and thats the way it is, We have a heaven and hell and thats how it is. Even if you dont believe them in the bible way, that doesnt mean they will go away. Instead of looking for your faith, why not go with Gods faith. You just end up copping out God and only taking some of what he says and leaving other of what he says. Not believeing in somthing doesnt make it go away.

This isnt the best place to talk about this, because of course many people here who arent Christian will totaly disagree, This is just my Christian take on it which i believe to be correct.

 

[arunma]

There is plenty in the Bible to support the idea that John the Baptist was the reincarnated Elijah.

John 1:21 says, "They asked him, 'Then who are you? Are you Elijah?'
He said, 'I am not.'
'Are you the Prophet?'
He answered, 'No.'"

So why does Jesus call John Elijah? Because God says in Malachi 4:5, "See, I will send you the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes."

In fact, John the Baptist can't be the reincarnation of Elijah, because 2 Kings 2:11 says, "As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind." How can a living person be reincarnated? Saint Luke records the birth of John the Baptist. John didn't come out of heaven, so it seems to me that what you say is impossible.

 

[M21]

Sorry this might be a bit O/T and not to threadjack but,

I don't really have a dog in this fight however I did fight, and I mean fight, in Afghanistan, and Iraq. I also fought in the first Gulf war. If we think globally and not nationally the first gulf war was a war fought for the self defense of our friends the Kuwaitis and the recovery of their territory. I have spent a good part of my adult life fighting for the liberation from oppression for the Kurdish people and I am quite happy they are free.

I participated in the initial fight in Iraq and came down from the north. I was involved in Operation Viking Hammer and fought against Ansar Al Islam. Many of the members of Ansar fought in Afghanistan and as they were defeated there they returned to Iraq to rearm and refit. The group had received $600,000 from al-Qaeda along with weapons, vehicles and training. That is who I fought. Did they have anything to directly with 911? No. Did Saddam aid, abiet and harbor terrorists? Yes.

I can't tell you how insulting and disgusting it is to hear some say that the US military would in any way, shape, or form participate in or condone the killing of innocent civilians. Most of the men I fought with were Muslims. We love each other like brothers. That is not what this fight is about. It is the fight between good and evil and good is winning.

Sorry, just couldn't this go bye. Carry on.

 

[arunma]

Sorry this might be a bit O/T and not to threadjack but,

I don't really have a dog in this fight however I did fight, and I mean fight, in Afghanistan, and Iraq. I also fought in the first Gulf war. If we think globally and not nationally the first gulf war was a war fought for the self defense of our friends the Kuwaitis and the recovery of their territory. I have spent a good part of my adult life fighting for the liberation from oppression for the Kurdish people and I am quite happy they are free.

I participated in the initial fight in Iraq and came down from the north. I was involved in Operation Viking Hammer and fought against Ansar Al Islam. Many of the members of Ansar fought in Afghanistan and as they were defeated there they returned to Iraq to rearm and refit. The group had received $600,000 from al-Qaeda along with weapons, vehicles and training. That is who I fought. Did they have anything to directly with 911? No. Did Saddam aid, abiet and harbor terrorists? Yes.

I can't tell you how insulting and disgusting it is to hear some say that the US military would in any way, shape, or form participate in or condone the killing of innocent civilians. Most of the men I fought with were Muslims. We love each other like brothers. That is not what this fight is about. It is the fight between good and evil and good is winning.

Sorry, just couldn't this go bye. Carry on.

Yes I agree with that. And indeed, I applaud you for your military service. All I am saying is that the American military is not an army of God. It's a secular army, in which many Christians happen to serve. Don't you agree?

 

[M21]

Yes I agree with that. And indeed, I applaud you for your military service. All I am saying is that the American military is not an army of God. It's a secular army, in which many Christians happen to serve. Don't you agree?

I agree. I am a vegitarian and if it weren't for the Halal certified MRE's to eat I would have been in a fix. That's right Muslim soldiers get Halal certified meals and Jewish soldiers can get Kosher MRE's. Hardly a "Christian" Army. One big happy "green" family.

 

[Cerridwen]

As it should be! I don't necesasrily support the War in Iraq...& I think Bush is a few bricks shy of a load, but I fully support our military. My husband served in the Guard for 10 years. I applaud & pray for our fighting men & women every day.

Love & Blessings, Cerridwen*

 

[TiffyToo]

Let me echo the tremendous respect I have for our military and the gratitude I feel for anyone who has served or is serving.

Having said this, I can feel the above and still disagree with current US policy. But the purpose of this thread isn't and wasn't to discuss politics. It just seems like the two overlap now, especially with a CIC who says he is a Christian and that he receives direction from God in making his policy decisions. I think it's great that Presidents have a faith, but I still think separation of church and state is important.

You all gave me such good points to think about. I once took a belief test (belief o matic on the Net) and did actually score highest with the Sikh religion. However, I am not looking for a new religion, rather I'd just as soon reconcile my feelings around Christianity with my other beliefs, if there's a way to do this.

The one question I don't think anyone answered (and I will go back to re-read to make sure and I guess this question is aimed at Christians) is pretty important to me. It's how can a loving God send people to a place called hell for not being Christian, especially considering that much of the world's population was raised to be good muslims, or hindus, or jews and to stray from their religion might imply the same damnation associated with the belief that non-Christians are bound for hell. I know the answer is...well, they can either accept Christ or refuse Christ and that's their choice, but doesn't it seem kinda unfair to send someone to hell for just practicing the religion they were brought up in? I don't get it.

 

[arunma]

I agree. I am a vegitarian and if it weren't for the Halal certified MRE's to eat I would have been in a fix. That's right Muslim soldiers get Halal certified meals and Jewish soldiers can get Kosher MRE's. Hardly a "Christian" Army. One big happy "green" family.

In other news, you're the first vegetarian Baptist I know besides myself!

Having said this, I can feel the above and still disagree with current US policy. But the purpose of this thread isn't and wasn't to discuss politics. It just seems like the two overlap now, especially with a CIC who says he is a Christian and that he receives direction from God in making his policy decisions. I think it's great that Presidents have a faith, but I still think separation of church and state is important.

Yes, it's very unfortunate that religion and politics overlap today. They shouldn't.

The one question I don't think anyone answered (and I will go back to re-read to make sure and I guess this question is aimed at Christians) is pretty important to me. It's how can a loving God send people to a place called hell for not being Christian, especially considering that much of the world's population was raised to be good muslims, or hindus, or jews and to stray from their religion might imply the same damnation associated with the belief that non-Christians are bound for hell. I know the answer is...well, they can either accept Christ or refuse Christ and that's their choice, but doesn't it seem kinda unfair to send someone to hell for just practicing the religion they were brought up in? I don't get it.

Well, being brought up in a different religion doesn't affect a person's salvation. A good number of people in my Sunday school group at church were raised in non-Christian families (or nominal Christian families, which is probably even worse). I myself was brought up in a Hindu family. The really interesting thing, however, is that most of the godless atheists I know at my university campus were brought up in Christian homes! Based on my observations, it looks like being born in a Christian home doesn't help at all.

Now as to the issue of fairness. According to the Scriptures, everyone deserves condemnation. So the fact that God chooses anyone for salvation is itself a miracle. Jesus stressed the horror of hell for a reason. He wants us, his church, to be salt in the world and display the love of God before unbelievers, so that they might repent and be saved. The point of being a Christian is to realize that you deserve to be condemned with all the unbelievers, so that you will feel the magnitude of God's gift.

Does that make sense? I could address this issue in more detail if you want.

 

[Arthra]

If Moslems, Jews and Christians as well as Hindus and others truly seek the hghest truths in their religion and are willing to sacrifice preconceived notions developed say in their early training as children, I think they'll they will all find each other and hold hands recognizing their oneness.

We have so much more in common than we do in things that are of little importance such as cultural and linquistic differences.

You could say the same about humanity that genetically we are really a lot more alike than we are aware of because we often go by artificial standards and distinctions that society has given us such as the size of our homes, our salaries or social class distinctions. The same is true with religions, there are many superficial differences that are really quite unimportant and rest assured, the good Lord knows this better than we do! so the bit about hell is really more of a fear instilled in people to keep them in check. "Hell" is basically about our alienation from God while "heaven" is nearness to Him

 

[TiffyToo]

Well, being brought up in a different religion doesn't affect a person's salvation. A good number of people in my Sunday school group at church were raised in non-Christian families (or nominal Christian families, which is probably even worse). I myself was brought up in a Hindu family. The really interesting thing, however, is that most of the godless atheists I know at my university campus were brought up in Christian homes! Based on my observations, it looks like being born in a Christian home doesn't help at all.

Now as to the issue of fairness. According to the Scriptures, everyone deserves condemnation. So the fact that God chooses anyone for salvation is itself a miracle. Jesus stressed the horror of hell for a reason. He wants us, his church, to be salt in the world and display the love of God before unbelievers, so that they might repent and be saved. The point of being a Christian is to realize that you deserve to be condemned with all the unbelievers, so that you will feel the magnitude of God's gift.

Does that make sense? I could address this issue in more detail if you want.

Kind of. Thanks for your response. I thought the point of being a Christian was to live the life God had planned out for you and to be a kind and good person. I don't see the value in feeling like one deserves condemnation, as that focuses on the negative, and then your faith is based in fear.

And I still maintain that I don't get how a loving God is going to "condemn" someone to hell because they happen to be Jewish and are just practicing their faith. Too, and I hate to say this, if Christianity were based on attraction or thinking that most who are Christians are loving and kind people, I don't think there would be too many people signing up. There are plenty who profess to be Christian, but the way they live their lives is antithetical to what Jesus was about. Does this make sense? It's late and I am kind of tired, but wanted to respond. I do have my own personal experiences to back this up, and if I judged Christianity based on these people, I would run very fast in the opposite direction. Fortunately, a real Christian (who walks the walk) invited me here. I am grateful there are people in this world who can serve as role models. It makes it ok for me to examine my beliefs when this is the case, as I don't spend my time looking at the hypocrisy of others that I know of.

 

[Cassiopeia]

If I may provide an alternative to the viewpoint of Ellethidhren (whose views we should still respect, since she's a fellow Christian)

Just because someone is a fellow Christian does not dictate they deserve respect but ALL here are entitled to it.

Now about the question of whether or not you're a Christian. There are many "creeds" that have been created to determine who is a Christian. The one found in the Bible is "Jesus is Lord." If you believe in one God who reveals himself in the persons of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, if you trust Christ Jesus for the forgive you for your sins, and if you personally repent of your sinful deeds, then you're a Christian.

That is the orthodox view however, I consider anyone willing to follow after the teachings of Jesus a Christian.

 

[morningstar2651]

http://selectsmart.com/religion.html
There you go, this ought to be helpful.

 

[arunma]

That is the orthodox view however, I consider anyone willing to follow after the teachings of Jesus a Christian.

Well, I am an orthodox Christian (with a small o), after all!

 

[morningstar2651]

• My #1 result for the SelectSmart.com selector, Christian Denomination Selector, is Unitarian Universalism

I'm interested in if some of the Christians here will get their particular denomination if they take this test.

 

[WhatIsTruth]

I do not think just because some one is a Christian they are entitled to respect just because of their faith alone. All here (and all throughout the world) are entitled to respect.

 

[Cassiopeia]

Well, I am an orthodox Christian (with a small o), after all!

yes I know but some may not realize that you are expressing an orthodox Christian view. by the way what is with the (with a small o)?

Peace,
Casi

 

[Cassiopeia]

I do not think just because some one is a Christian they are entitled to respect just because of their faith alone. All here (and all throughout the world) are entitled to respect.

Yeah that is what I was trying to say

 

[Amandine]

yes I know but some may not realize that you are expressing an orthodox Christian view. by the way what is with the (with a small o)?i

With a big o commonly refers to the Eastern or the Oriental Orthodox Christians. (I think CF needs a little nerdy smiley for me )