I'm confused

[arunma]

With a big o commonly refers to the Eastern or the Oriental Orthodox Christians. (I think CF needs a little nerdy smiley for me )

What you said.

 

[vajradhara]

Namaste Tiffytoo,


thank you for the post.


just so you know... the Jewish faith also believes in reincarnation.. so, it isn't all that surprising that you may feel that is a more correct view of things.

i've not read everyones responses to you, so if it has been said, please disregard

 

[M21]

All here (and all throughout the world) are entitled to respect.

I couldn't disagree more. I don't respect Hitler, Osama Bin Laden, Pol Pot, Tim McViegh, .....etc etc. IMO - Respect is not an entitlement program.

 

[TiffyToo]

I couldn't disagree more. I don't respect Hitler, Osama Bin Laden, Pol Pot, Tim McViegh, .....etc etc. IMO - Respect is not an entitlement program.

Well that's an interesting perspective and I see your point. Maybe the way to look at it is all people deserve respect until they screw up. And then if they recognize the error of their ways and change their behavior (or keep trying to change their behavior), then maybe they deserve respect.

Would you like to take a stab at my question? I really appreciate everyone's thoughtful responses and gotta tell ya, I find myself thinking more along the lines with those who are more encompassing in their beliefs. However, you have mentioned you are a baptist so I would like your take on things. How does a loving God condemn someone to hell for merely practicing their religion that they were raised in and indoctrinated to believe in? I think indoctinated is the key word here. If you are indoctrinated it implies the same level of commitment to one's beliefs (for fear of heresy if one strays too far off the beaten path). It's easy for those raised in the West to come to terms with what 80% of the population subscribes to. I refer to the other 20% who are just as sure of their positions as a Christian is of his or her own. Your call, if you care to answer. Thanks.

I don't mean to be a pit bull on the issue here, I am just persistent.

 

[M21]

Would you like to take a stab at my question? I really appreciate everyone's thoughtful responses and gotta tell ya, I find myself thinking more along the lines with those who are more encompassing in their beliefs. However, you have mentioned you are a baptist so I would like your take on things. How does a loving God condemn someone to hell for merely practicing their religion that they were raised in and indoctrinated to believe in?

OK I'll give you my take on it. What a loaded question To begin with take a deep breath, open your heart, and ask God to meet you and I here. The short answer is; He dosen't. Nowhere in the bible does it say he does. Now the Long answer;

First I want to be clear that we are talking about non Christians that have never received the Good News of Jesus Christ. I know you would like this to remain outside of scripture, but the depth of your question, and the fact I'm a Baptist, and I also measure everything aginst the word of God, I must require we examine it. I will use the NIV (New Improved Version ) and start with

Psalm 145:17 The LORD is righteous in all his ways and loving toward all he has made. <-- What a beautiful sentence. I assume you will agree with that statement?

So now we can move on to this scripture.

Ecclesiastes 12:13 Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man.

and we read in

Acts 10:34-35 34Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right.

I believe it is a serious mistake and false doctrine to say that if you don't believe in Jesus Christ as Son of God, risen from the dead, you will surely go to Hell and be tortured forever throughout eternity after you die.

IMHO - Here is the false doctrine that Satan loves to perpetuate;


This false doctrine defames God and is a stumbling block to believers, because it is so cruel, intuitively unfair and adverse to Justice. The Natural Law (conscience), which God has given to all people, rejects such an abomination of Justice. Satan loves to spread this idea, however, because it makes him look good compared to God.

This false doctrine is based mainly on two verses from Scripture which might seem to say that belief in Christ is essential to avoiding Hell. These two verses are . . .

Mark 16:16 "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

and

John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Both of these, however, have other interpretations (the correct ones) which change their meanings completely. Lets' look first at Mark 16:16, then at John 14:6.


In understanding Mark 16:16, we need to read it in context of the verse before it, Mark 16:15, which talks about "preaching the Gospel." How many times have you heard me in other places say "Context, context, context"

Mark 16:15-16 He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

The condemnation applies only to people who have had the Gospel presented to them, so that they fully understand the ideas, and then they reject it anyway. If they have never heard it, they are not condemned. And if they don't understand it, they are not condemned.

Here are the words of Jesus, speaking about the soldiers who were crucifying Him. In Luke 23:34 Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."

Just as Jesus excused his executioners, He also excuses those who have not heard or do not understand the Gospel message, those who "do not know."

So the only condemnation in Mark 16:16 is for those who have heard the Gospel message, and understand it, but reject it anyway.

Now moving on to John 14:6;

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

I belive that the correct understanding of John 14:6 is that Jesus is the gatekeeper to Heaven. Nobody gets to the Father, that is, gets into Heaven, except by being let in by Jesus. Jesus may let them in for whatever reasons He chooses. He is not required to let in only those who believe in Him.


The Gospel truth is that: belief in Jesus is the sure way to avoid Hell, but it is not necessarily the only way. Jesus Himself said that you can avoid Hell by doing good to other people out of love for them. I believe this is the entire meaning of the Parable of the Sheep And The Goats. In this parable, there is no mention whatsoever of faith: it is pure works based on love. God accepts your good works toward others as if they were good works done to Him in love. He counts your love for others as righteousness. I want to clarify that these are not "works of the law" but works of love.

Here is the Parable Of The Sheep And The Goats, which is a clear statement, by Jesus Himself, that love toward other people will keep you out of Hell.

Matthew 25:31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did
we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Also we must keep in mind what James said in 2:8 "If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right."

In addition to love for others, there is another way that non-believers in Christ can avoid going to Hell: by following the Natural Law written on their hearts by God. According to the Bible, there is such a thing as "The Natural Law." It is given by God to mankind, written on our hearts so we instinctively know right from wrong (our conscience). Those who do not know the Gospel and who are not Jews (under the Law of Moses) will be judged by this Natural Law, not by whether they accept Jesus Christ or not.


Romans 2:14-16 "Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

The Natural Law is not written down anywhere, but many people believe it is closely approximated by The Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:1-17) together with The Great Commandment (Matthew 22:35-40). The Natural Law requires that we recognize one God, Creator of the Universe (Romans 1:19-20).

In 1 Timothy 4:10, the Bible says that God is Savior of all men, "especially those who believe." It does not say "only those who believe." Believers in Christ have a straight and sure path away from Hell. But it is not the only path, if you believe what the Bible says.

Romans 2:6-8 makes it clear that God judges us based on what we have done in our lives.

"God will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

For those who have done much evil, and who would otherwise go to Hell, their faith in Jesus Christ saves them from the consequences of their past sins. And the Holy Spirit, now dwelling within them, guides them and protects them from most additional sin the future.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

So in summary, I believe it is a false and harmful doctrine that only believers in Jesus Christ can avoid going to Hell.

That being said,we who do accept Him as Lord have a great advantage over those who do not. Our past sins are forgiven. Holy Spirit protects us from committing most sins in the future. Our path is straight and sure. We have the joy of fellowship with Him, as He lives inside us and we have immediate access to Him at all times. He provides for all our needs. He guides our footsteps and makes everything that happens to us work for our own benefit and we are assured of eternal life with Him forever in Heaven.

The non-believers in Christ are basically lost, wandering around like blind people without guidance. Nevertheless, non-believers in Christ are not necessarily doomed to Hell. They can avoid it either by obeying the Natural Law written on their hearts or by loving their neighbor as they love themselves, which fulfills all of God's law.

So this is the way I believe it all works out in the end, but of course neither you or I will probably ever know with certainty;


1. If you believe in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour you do not go to Hell.

2. If you do not believe in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour, and you have not heard the gospel, or don't undferstand it, then you are judged by the Natural Law, or by the Mosaic Law if you are a Jew, or the Royal Law (You shall love your neighbor as yourself) fulfills all of the requirements of both the Mosaic Law and the Natural Law According to Galations 5:14;

"14The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

The Natural Law is contained in the Ten Commandments, together with The Great Commandment.The Royal Law, so named by James, is "You shall love your neighbor as yourself".The Mosaic Law is all the Law of the Old Testament.

3. If you do NOT believe in Jesus Christ and you have heard the Gospel and understand it (but you reject it nevertheless) then you will go to hell.

. . . unless God decides to take mercy on you, which He as Judge, is allowed to do.

And finally I want to finish with what Paul wrote in 1st Corinthians Chapter 13 about what Jesus tells said concerning the supreme importance of love, even more important than faith.

"11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. 13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Sorry this took so long to explain, but it is not an easily answered question. Because I care so much about you I wanted to make sure I gave a thorough answer.


Your Brother in Jesus Christ our Lord. <><

 

[thestudent7000]

'Jesus was either the son of God and everyhting else he claimed to be, or one of the worst human beings to ever live on earth.'

just curious, could someone explain this to me please.

 

[arunma]

However, you have mentioned you are a baptist so I would like your take on things. How does a loving God condemn someone to hell for merely practicing their religion that they were raised in and indoctrinated to believe in? I think indoctinated is the key word here. If you are indoctrinated it implies the same level of commitment to one's beliefs (for fear of heresy if one strays too far off the beaten path).

Again, it's not as bad as some people make it out to be. As I mentioned earlier, the majority of the college students in my Sunday school class (including myself) come from non-Christian families. Most of these people were indoctrinated into the religion of atheism, and many of us were indoctrinated into other religions. The human mind isn't quite as frail as some think it is; everyone can see the light of the Gospel.

Besides that, it's important to note that we can't save ourselves. Only God saves us.

 

[M21]

'Jesus was either the son of God and everyhting else he claimed to be, or one of the worst human beings to ever live on earth.'

just curious, could someone explain this to me please.

Did you mean to start a new thread right here in the middle of this one?

I bet if you go start your own thread on that question you'll get plenty of explanations.

 

[WhatIsTruth]

I couldn't disagree more. I don't respect Hitler, Osama Bin Laden, Pol Pot, Tim McViegh, .....etc etc. IMO - Respect is not an entitlement program.

Well someone on here thought that being a Christian was entitlement to respect. You might want to quote and complain about that statement to, before you jump on my case.

 

[TiffyToo]

OK I'll give you my take on it. What a loaded question To begin with take a deep breath, open your heart, and ask God to meet you and I here. The short answer is; He dosen't. Nowhere in the bible does it say he does.

Thank you, M21. I like the shortened version best. It's a lot to consider and process, but you can be sure I will...all of it. I appreciate the time you took to outline all of that, and I will think about it. Then, I may have more questions. Thank you.

 

[M21]

Well someone on here thought that being a Christian was entitlement to respect. You might want to quote and complain about that statement to, before you jump on my case.

Sorry you thought I was singling you out. In my example I cited a Christian, Muslim, Atheist and a Buddhist. I'm also sorry you felt like I was "jumping your case" because I disagree with you.

 

[TiffyToo]

Well someone on here thought that being a Christian was entitlement to respect. You might want to quote and complain about that statement to, before you jump on my case.

I could not agree more. I always start out with respect, but if someone barks back at me, they sorta lose my respect. Thanks.

 

[TiffyToo]

Again, it's not as bad as some people make it out to be. As I mentioned earlier, the majority of the college students in my Sunday school class (including myself) come from non-Christian families. Most of these people were indoctrinated into the religion of atheism, and many of us were indoctrinated into other religions. The human mind isn't quite as frail as some think it is; everyone can see the light of the Gospel.

Besides that, it's important to note that we can't save ourselves. Only God saves us.

If everyone can see the light of the gospel, then what happened to me? Don't get me wrong. I see the value in Jesus' teachings and would REALLY like to believe as many do. However, my mind wanders. I think of different things. Am I doomed because I have a wandering mind?

I do the best I can do, I really do. In my last course of study I have a 4.0. I realize there's a difference between academia and real life, yet I need to make some sense of it. Maybe I'm just hopeless.

If someone could impart the gift of faith to me, maybe that would be good. Until then, I need more. I need to reason things out. That's why I am here. To reason things out. M21 quotes a bunch of stuff I really need to critically think about and sort through, but I'd just as soon prefer someone say something that intuitively just hits me, because that's how I operate. I am analytical, to an extent, but pretty much not. I balance reason with emotion.

 

[arunma]

If everyone can see the light of the gospel, then what happened to me? Don't get me wrong. I see the value in Jesus' teachings and would REALLY like to believe as many do. However, my mind wanders. I think of different things. Am I doomed because I have a wandering mind?

Well, just because everyone can see the light of the Gospel doesn't mean that everyone will. However, I think that if you seek to know God, he won't deny you. All I ask is that you continue to pray for greater faith, and that you find a church community that will fold you in. I certainly don't think that you or anyone else is "doomed" to not know Christ. You seem like you want to have faith, and I think that God will grant it to you if you ask for it.

I do the best I can do, I really do. In my last course of study I have a 4.0. I realize there's a difference between academia and real life, yet I need to make some sense of it. Maybe I'm just hopeless.

Well, academics has a lot to do with real life. But it has very little to do with one's spiritual life. Of course God wants you to do your best in all that you work for (yes, that is in the Bible). But doing well in school won't score anyone points with God. Again, God's salvation is entirely by grace; it doesn't come by anything that we could do to earn it. If it did, would salvation really be that valuable?

If someone could impart the gift of faith to me, maybe that would be good. Until then, I need more. I need to reason things out. That's why I am here. To reason things out. M21 quotes a bunch of stuff I really need to critically think about and sort through, but I'd just as soon prefer someone say something that intuitively just hits me, because that's how I operate. I am analytical, to an extent, but pretty much not. I balance reason with emotion.

OK, that's understandable. Why don't you tell me about some of the issues you have with Christianity, and we can reason through them. If you still want to discuss the issue of salvation for non-Christians in more detail, that's fine too.