I'm confused

[TiffyToo]

I don't know where to post this, but in the interest of complying with the rules, I will post it here.

I accepted Christ as my Savior 30 years ago. My faith has waned and waxed over the years. At one point, I wanted to move to Anaheim CA to support Robert Schuller in his work. Over the years, I have really thought about my beliefs and always end up conflicted. I had a a lot of bad experiences with fundamentalist Christianity, and it sort of turned me off. It would be so much easier for me if I could believe as many do, but I have too many questions. Each Easter I really try to separate the bad feelings I have about Christianity from who Jesus really was and what he represented, but I find it impossible to get past the fundamentalist voices in my head, which just makes me avoid the whole subject.

Compounded with this, intuitively I tend to lean toward a belief in reincarnation and Karma. It's the only thing that makes sense to me. I have never understood the whole concept of why Christ died for our sins on the cross. I don't get this anymore than I get calculus (and I only squeaked by with a C in that class, after three attempts at getting through it).

I need to come to terms with something that makes sense to me. I believe in God and never question that. It's Jesus I have a problem with, although intellectually I believe in his teachings and think he was a great man, if not divine.

Here's where I get tripped up. Why would a loving God send people to hell simply by virtue of the fact they are practicing a religion that they were raised to believe in, and indoctrinated as fully as some Christians are. Also, I believe when we pass on our soul lives on, but that we go to the other side. I don't believe in the traditional concept of heaven and hell. Quite frankly, if there is a hell it's here on earth. I don't know if any of you have read any of what Sylvia Browne has to say on the afterlife, but it makes perfect sense to me. It also makes sense to me that we return to this earth to learn lessons unlearned, in order to perfect our souls and ultimately become one with God.

So...what to do. I need to reconcile all of this and cannot. Any thoughts or different perspectives are welcome, although I'd appreciate it if someone could explain things to me in a way that doesn't just quote bible verses. I have read the New Testament and all the verses and still don't get a lot of it.

Too, given the fact I accepted Christ so many years ago, but my beliefs have evolved over time, does this make me a Christian or a non-Christian? I see so many horrible things done in the name of Christianity, and it makes me think I cannot subscribe to a religion where certain things are overlooked. I am a liberal and opposed to the policies of this current administration, in spite of the fact that George Bush professes to be a Christian. To me, Jesus would not want us bombing innocents, especially considering Bush inasmuch admitted that Iraq had nothing to do with 911. How do we move forward thinking that we are doing the right thing, when I know in my heart Jesus was about peace, love and tolerance.

I am confused.

 

[keepinitreal]

There are tons of responses to this. I'll try my best. And per your request, I wont just throw out bible verses.

First, let me put your mind at ease. Everyone, including pastors, priests, ets. have days where they think "I hope this is all true because I am sinking my whole life into it!" Everyone has doubts, even if only for seconds. Plus, evil will always whisper in your ear, "Cmon.....you know that is not true! Be smarter than that!"

It will never be easy to believe what Jesus did. IF you live 100 more years you won't really get it! It is supposed to be hard to believe! It is supposed to be a little out of our comprehension! Anyone who claims that their faith has never waivered, or that they don't have doubts at times, or that the Bible is not hard to believe at times, is quite frankly a liar. That does not mean you are not a Christian!

As far as War and all the bad things on earth....it is Ok to not fully undertand it or agree with it. You don't have to agree with every decision George Bush makes to be a Christian and a good American.

Basically here is what is going on. The enemy (aka the Devil) is using your weakness to distract you. Your weakness is that in your mind, in order to be a Christian, you can never doubt, never be confused, never disagree with a Christian, etc....so he is playing on that to say "You are not a christian, and it is too tough for you so give up!"
Even the Christians who saw what Jesus did in person had doubts! He certainly does not expect that you won't at times!

I hope this helps. As far as Jesus being a good man or a good tacher and not the son of God, I will say this. He did not leave that open for discussion. Read "Mere Christianity" by CS LEwis. Jesus was either the son of God and everyhting else he claimed to be, or one of the worst human beings to ever live on earth. There is no middle! It is either /or.

 

[WhatIsTruth]

Well..C.S. Lewis is good,

But reading what your views on Karma and reincarnation I would also read "The Dhammapada", or "Zen Flesh, Zen Bones." That is Buddhist works.

You could try reading "Witchcraft Today" or any other of Gerald Gardner's books except for "High Magic's Aid". Just to warn you its a little wordy and gives a "traditional" view of witchcraft. More available would be Raymond Buckland, maybe Silver Ravenwolf(as much as I personally don't like her books).

Also I would check out "The Jewish Book of Why" and the Hindu work "The Bhagavad-gita"

Me and my husband have read these books/authors and to get you started on your exploration they would be good.

Peace

 

[Illuminatus]

While you're at it, you may want to explose the concept of universalism, which is the belief that there is no hell of eternal torment. As a Christian concept, there are quite a number of followers, and it's scripturally defensible. www.tentmaker.org is a great place for information.

 

[Arthra]

Tiffy too:

Welcome to the forum!

having read your post I see a few areas that I'd like to respond as a Baha'i to and maybe from there something might come that you'd like to pursue...

Tiffy wrote:

It's Jesus I have a problem with, although intellectually I believe in his teachings and think he was a great man, if not divine.

Comment:

I'm curious and maybe you can elaborate on that... You accept Jesus teachings and think He's a great man "if not divine"... I also accept Jesus and His teachings ...for me Jesus reflected the Divine but was not or is not God Himself. So reflecting the Divine He was for people of His day the Messenger of God. This is a Baha'i view and how we reconcile the issue.

Tiffy:

Why would a loving God send people to hell simply by virtue of the fact they are practicing a religion that they were raised to believe in, and indoctrinated as fully as some Christians are.

Comment:

God doesn't send people to hell...People can respond to God or not. They have freedom of choice and sometimes they elect to turn away from God. When that happens God can still be merciful and patient with peopel but in a sense they are the only ones who must turn to Him.

We Baha'is believe all the major religions have a Divine origin and if sincerely followed will lead to the same place...So people don't go to "hell" because they are Hindus, Moslems or Jews.

Tiffy wrote:

It also makes sense to me that we return to this earth to learn lessons unlearned, in order to perfect our souls and ultimately become one with God.

Comment:

Returning to this earth is a widespread belief and even comforting to some people that they'll have plenty of chances...however, I feel this is not going to happen...that your life here is what counts and makes a difference. So we have to take responsibility for it and reflect as many of God's attributes as possible here..developing our spiritual lives for an eventual return to the presence of God. I don't think we can ever achieve God hood but we can strive to be close to Him and walk according to His teachings. You wrote earlier you believe in Jesus teachings, then with all your might and soul live according to them.

Tiffy:

I have never understood the whole concept of why Christ died for our sins on the cross.

Comment:

Jesus sacrificed Himself and lived His life for the benefit of humanity... It happened that the Jews of His day would sacrifice animals in the Temple as a way of dealing with their sins. I believe Jesus drove the dealers from the Temple grounds because they sold doves and goats or other animals to the pilgrims and Jesus basically taught or strongly inferred that God does not require the blood of goats and other beasts, that He requires us to sacrifice our egos and selfishness and so He selflessly died on the cross. He died because He was too much of a threat to the priests and Pharisees and the Temple sacrificial system.

Tiffy:

Too, given the fact I accepted Christ so many years ago, but my beliefs have evolved over time, does this make me a Christian or a non-Christian? I see so many horrible things done in the name of Christianity, and it makes me think I cannot subscribe to a religion where certain things are overlooked.

Comment:

I think if you accepted Jesus even many years ago you are still His follower.. What is often done in the name of religion it is not the pure essence of the religion. If you believe in Jesus' teachings see how these are carried out today and if they are not followed, then the people who claim to be Christians probably are not or are terribly confused. It takes genuine courage to follow Jesus teachings and many people lack that and are unwilling to take the risk it involves.

Tiffy:

I know in my heart Jesus was about peace, love and tolerance.

Comment:

And you are correct. The leaders of the world are often not following the Lord. As a baha'i I wanted to share that we do believe in a better world through world peace and justice and that we can begin building the foundations for God's Kingdom on this earth!

So I think you are still a fine Christian and wish you well!

- Art

 

[Ellethidhren]

Scripture is plain and clear that there is no reincarnation. Hebrews 9:27 says it is appointed for a man once to die and after this judgement. Look up the scripture in different versions. It's quite clear.
Also, 2Corinthians 5:8 where Paul prefers to be absent from the body and be present with the Lord.

I want to also point out that self-defense is perfectly permissible. Bush is not out to kill innocents, the radical Muslims are!!! Remember 9/11? Would you like repeats? We do what we have to in war. If innocents get killed as in ALL wars past (HELLOOOO!), that's the breaks. War is war. You do what you have to do to defend yourself, your family, your community, your country. ...............................Or you can sit back, do nothing, and wait to be taken over, and forced into a lifestyle you really don't want.

 

[WhatIsTruth]

Ellethidren,

I think it was pretty clear that she didn't want bible verses thrown at her. Didn't read that or didn't care?

Try and help her instead by giving her advice. She obviously has already read the bible and seeks other evidence. Offer it.

 

[WhatIsTruth]

I want to also point out that self-defense is perfectly permissible. Bush is not out to kill innocents, the radical Muslims are!!! Remember 9/11? Would you like repeats? We do what we have to in war. If innocents get killed as in ALL wars past (HELLOOOO!), that's the breaks. War is war. You do what you have to do to defend yourself, your family, your community, your country. ...............................Or you can sit back, do nothing, and wait to be taken over, and forced into a lifestyle you really don't want.

Gee..Jesus said that if a man slaps you on the face for you to turn and give the other cheek for them to slap. Doesn't sound like Jesus wants you to go around bombing people.

Bush could care less about innocents. Bush could care less about anything except the rich and maybe keeping those records his daddy sealed up from getting out one day.

Do you remember 9/11? I do. You are a disgusting human being to say that because of those deaths more death is acceptable. Those "radical muslims" aren't muslim. THAT IS NOT THE MUSLIM FAITH. And Al-Qaeda had nothing to do with Iraq, despite Bush's earlier claim which got proved wrong just like WMD.

The only thing I have to defend myself from is terrorists like YOU. And if you sit there and open your mouth and say "I'm not a terrorist." you are using fear to manipulate people's emoitions. Guess what? That's what terrorists do.

As far as people dying in war because "that's the breaks" try telling that to a soilders family who's son/daughter has died. I'm sure they some of them don't feel like "that's the breaks".

Peace

 

[TiffyToo]

Scripture is plain and clear that there is no reincarnation. Hebrews 9:27 says it is appointed for a man once to die and after this judgement. Look up the scripture in different versions. It's quite clear.
Also, 2Corinthians 5:8 where Paul prefers to be absent from the body and be present with the Lord.

I want to also point out that self-defense is perfectly permissible. Bush is not out to kill innocents, the radical Muslims are!!! Remember 9/11? Would you like repeats? We do what we have to in war. If innocents get killed as in ALL wars past (HELLOOOO!), that's the breaks. War is war. You do what you have to do to defend yourself, your family, your community, your country. ...............................Or you can sit back, do nothing, and wait to be taken over, and forced into a lifestyle you really don't want.

Ellethidhren, with all due respect I do not believe Muslims are any different than us, as a whole. I think there are bad apples in any bunch, including Christians. I live in fear of radical Christians just as much as radical Muslims. Furthermore, I am being forced into a lifestyle I don't want, by virtue of the fact I don't feel proud to be an American any longer and, no, I don't want to have to show my papers in three years (i.e. the Real ID Act which has passed). What this country is doing is NOT who I am, or who I want to be thought of, or even who we used to be. I don't want to turn this into a political discussion, but certain policies are underway which strongly conflict with my value system.

I am glad this results in discussion, and I appreciate the thoughtful comments of everyone. Clearly, I have some sorting through I need to do, and will follow up on several comments. It seems to me I read a long time ago that there were scriptural references to reincarnation, but I will have to research. Then again, I wasn't looking to turn this into a discussion of scripture, so maybe not. Thanks for everyone's input.

 

[MasterFollower]

Tiffytoo maybe you would like Sikhism they believe in One God and also in reincarnation.

BASICS OF SIKHISM

1. Sikhism is the youngest of the World religions. Its history dates back to 1469. Its founder Guru Nanak Dev was born in a village called Talwandi, now known as Nankana Sahib in Pakistan, in 1469. The Sikhs have ten Gurus. It is believed that they all had same soul though they had different bodies, and that it was Guru Nanak Dev's spirit which passed on into his nine successors. The Sikhs call God as 'Waheguru', meaning that God is great. Their common salutation is "Sat Siri Akal" (God is supreme and is immortal). Some Sikhs say, "Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh" (God belongs to the Khalsa and God is invincible). Guru Granth Sahib is the holy book of the Sikhs. It is believed that the tenth Guru, Guru Gobind Singh bestowed upon the Granth the title of the Guru. The Sikhs worship only one Almighty God in his abstract form. They are not allowed to worship any idols, images or photographs. According to the Sikh belief, God is the eternal truth; he is beyond fear, enmity and death. He is unborn and is self illuminated. He himself is the creator, preserver and destroyer.
2. The Sikhs believe that all existence is controlled by one omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient Lord called by different names: Ishwar, Jehovah, Allah and Waheguru.

Who is a Sikh:

A Sikh is any person whose faith consists of belief in One God, the ten Sikh Gurus, the Guru Granth Sahib and other scriptures and teachings of the Sikh Gurus. Additionally, he or she must believe in the necessity and importance of `Amrit’, the Sikh baptism.



​

God and the Sikhs:

According to the Sikh belief, God is all omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient. The sun, moon/s, wind, fire, water, vegetation and all other things which exist are His witnesses. A Sikh must worship only the abstract form of God. The worship of images or any other object is strictly forbidden.


God is both the creator and the destroyer. He is beyond birth and death. He is both merciful and compassionate. He is beyond fear and enmity. He is self illuminated. He is the Master of all the treasures. All our possessions are a result of His grace.

The Sikhs call God as Waheguru, meaning the most wonderful Master.

The belief of the Sikhs in Waheguru is similar to that of Judaism, Christianity and Islam i.e., God is the greatest power, He is supreme, He is the king of kings, He pervades everywhere, He knows the inner thoughts of everyone, He is the giver, He existed before the start of the time, He existed when the time was started, He exists now and He will exist forever.

A baptised Sikh is called Khalsa, who must observe and follow strict code of conduct.



​

He must-

1. 1. worship only one Almighty God, recite five prescribed banis (hymns) everyday learn Punjabi language and read Guru Granth Sahib, wear and observe the significance of five Ks: kesh -uncut hair, kanga-a small comb, kara-a stainless steel bracelet, kirpan - a sword and kuchcha - an underwear.
   2. live a truthful life and treat all humans as equal

He must not-

1. 1. cut body hair eat kosher meat, smoke, take drugs or intoxicants,
   2. have faith in black magic, superstitions, charms and rituals

Rules, Concepts and Commandments:


A Sikh lives by the rules made for him by the ten Gurus. The fundamental rules, concepts and the commandments are as follows:

Worship of God

1. Worship only God and no one else. Make worship and prayer a part of your daily life.
2. Do not make images of God, worship him in his abstract form.

Truthful life and honest living

1. Work hard and work with honesty. Lead a truthful life. Share your earnings with others. Help the needy and the poor.Love your children. Respect your parents.
2. Do not harm others.

Fatherhood of God and Brotherhood of man

1. Believe that everyone is the child of God. Believe that all human-beings are equal.
2. Do not discriminate on the basis of colour, religion, cast and creed.

Rituals and Superstitions.

1. Do not believe in any rituals and superstitions.
2. Do not believe in the worship of images, tombs and graves.

Social and Family Guidelines

1. Do not take alcohol, tobacco and drugs. Do not eat halal meat. Do not eat any food which inflames the passions. Be true to your parents and children. Do not steal. Do not gamble.
2. Love and respect your guests.

The belief

1. Believe in the oneness of the ten Gurus. Believe in the sovereignty of Guru Granth Sahib
2. Believe in the spiritual authority of the five takhats.

​

 

[benmaarof]

Islam teaches that God is an absolute Unity.

Quran
112:1 Say: He is God, the One and Only;
112:2 God, the Eternal, Absolute;
112:3 He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
112:4 And there is none like unto Him.

Jesus was a righteous prophet imbued with the Holy Spirit. He performed miracles only with by will of God just like what was said in the Gospels.

Quran
003.059 The similitude of Jesus before God is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was.

004.171 O People of the Book (Jews & Christians)! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of God aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of God, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in God and His apostles. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for God is one God: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs.

005.110 Then will God say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold ! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'


We don't believe in reincarnation. We don't believe that God would be so cheap as to recycle souls. We have only one life to live. What we do in this life determines whether we achive Salvation, i.e. Paradise or Damnation, i.e. hell. Plus we don't believe Jesus died for our sins. To each his or her own. God will judge us on the day of Judgement according to our own deeds.

Quran
035.018 Nor can a bearer of burdens bear another's burdens if one heavily laden should call another to (bear) his load. Not the least portion of it can be carried (by the other). Even though he be nearly related. Thou canst but admonish such as fear their Lord unseen and establish regular Prayer. And whoever purifies himself does so for the benefit of his own soul; and the destination (of all) is to God.

002.286 On no soul doth God Place a burden greater than it can bear. It gets every good that it earns, and it suffers every ill that it earns. (Pray "Our Lord! Condemn us not if we forget or fall into error; our Lord! Lay not of us a burden Like that which Thou didst lay on those before us; Our Lord! Lay not on us a burden greater than we have strength to bear. Blot out our sins, and grant us forgiveness. Have mercy on us. Thou art our Protector; Help us against those who stand against faith."

003.025 But how (will they fare) when we gather them together against a day about which there is no doubt, and each soul will be paid out just what it has earned, without (favour or) injustice?

003.030 "On the Day when every soul will be confronted with all the good it has done, and all the evil it has done, it will wish there were a great distance between it and its evil. But God cautions you (To remember) Himself. And God is full of kindness to those that serve Him."

004.111 And if any one earns sin. he earns it against His own soul: for God is full of knowledge and wisdom.

006.060 It is He who doth take your souls by night, and hath knowledge of all that ye have done by day: by day doth He raise you up again; that a term appointed be fulfilled; In the end unto Him will be your return; then will He show you the truth of all that ye did.

010.044 Verily God will not deal unjustly with man in aught: It is man that wrongs his own soul.

016.111 One Day (Judgement Day) every soul will come up struggling for itself, and every soul will be recompensed (fully) for all its actions, and none will be unjustly dealt with.

029.006 And if any strive (with might and main), they do so for their own souls: for God is free of all needs from all creation.

045.022 God created the heavens and the earth for just ends, and in order that each soul may find the recompense of what it has earned, and none of them be wronged.

 

[MasterFollower]

benmaarof what makes Reincarnation as you say cheap I don't get what you are saying.

 

[arunma]

Too, given the fact I accepted Christ so many years ago, but my beliefs have evolved over time, does this make me a Christian or a non-Christian? I see so many horrible things done in the name of Christianity, and it makes me think I cannot subscribe to a religion where certain things are overlooked. I am a liberal and opposed to the policies of this current administration, in spite of the fact that George Bush professes to be a Christian. To me, Jesus would not want us bombing innocents, especially considering Bush inasmuch admitted that Iraq had nothing to do with 911. How do we move forward thinking that we are doing the right thing, when I know in my heart Jesus was about peace, love and tolerance.

This is an important issue, and it one that is very important to me! I am a conservative, evangelical, Bible-believing Christian. I also happen to disagree with practically everything that the Republican party does (except for their pro-life stance).

If I may provide an alternative to the viewpoint of Ellethidhren (whose views we should still respect, since she's a fellow Christian), I take the Bible quite literally. I take it literally when it says that non-believers will be cast into hell, and I take it literally when it says that that Christians must turn the other cheek. While the Afghanistan war was rather justified, I do not believe that the Iraq war has anything to do with terrorism. Saint Augustine wrote that war is only justfiable (though still not ideal) in two circumstances: self defense, and recovery of lost territory. That war doesn't satisfy either condition, and so I don't agree with it.

Now, all of this is somewhat irrelevant. First, and most importantly, we don't go to church to "do politics." We meet to worship Yahweh and his Son Jesus. Politics does not belong in the church of God. In fact, an amazing thing about Christianity is that it cuts across all political divisions. Christians can be found in the Republican, Democratic, and even Communist parties. As my pastor says, I don't give a rip about these meaningless labels.

Personally, I do not consider President Bush to be a fellow Christian, and I do not consider America to be a Christian nation. But none of that matters. You can vote for whoever you want and still be a Christian. Last November, I voted Kerry.

Now about the question of whether or not you're a Christian. There are many "creeds" that have been created to determine who is a Christian. The one found in the Bible is "Jesus is Lord." If you believe in one God who reveals himself in the persons of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, if you trust Christ Jesus for the forgive you for your sins, and if you personally repent of your sinful deeds, then you're a Christian.

 

[bouncer]

If I may provide an alternative to the viewpoint of Ellethidhren (whose views we should still respect, since she's a fellow Christian), I take the Bible quite literally. I take it literally when it says that non-believers will be cast into hell, and I take it literally when it says that that Christians must turn the other cheek. While the Afghanistan war was rather justified, I do not believe that the Iraq war has anything to do with terrorism. Saint Augustine wrote that war is only justfiable (though still not ideal) in two circumstances: self defense, and recovery of lost territory. That war doesn't satisfy either condition, and so I don't agree with it.

This is off-topic, but i'm just wondering...

Do you agree with Saint Augustine? If so, how do you reconcile "turn the other cheek", with War; given that you just mentioned that you take that law literally.

 

[bouncer]

If you believe in one God who reveals himself in the persons of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, if you trust Christ Jesus for the forgive you for your sins, and if you personally repent of your sinful deeds, then you're a Christian.

Let's also not forget; walking the walk, rather than just talking the talk.

 

[arunma]

This is off-topic, but i'm just wondering...

Do you agree with Saint Augustine? If so, how do you reconcile "turn the other cheek", with War; given that you just mentioned that you take that law literally.

I don't agree with quite everything that Saint Augustine wrote in his lifetime, but I agree with much of it.

Now regarding "turn the other cheek." Remember that we shouldn't call this a law, because the Law of Moses says "eye for eye, and tooth for tooth." Jesus' teaching is greater than the law. To answer your question, I reconcile this teaching with war by reading what God teaches us through Saint Paul in Romans 13. Governmental authorities (not just America, but all governments) exist by the will of God. And they do not bear the sword in vain. Saint Paul tells us in Romans 12 that we should never avenge ourselves, but that we should leave it to the wrath of God (which is precisely what the Sermon on the Mount is all about). But a few sentences later, he tells us that the wrath of God is not something that will merely be revealed at the last day. God gives governments the sword so that they can execute God's wrath on the lawless man. Thus, the Afghanistan war was God's wrath on lawless men.

But merely because God uses governments does not mean that governments are the faithful servants of God. I believe that the Iraq war was an example of a government acting apart from the will of God.

 

[bouncer]

I don't agree with quite everything that Saint Augustine wrote in his lifetime, but I agree with much of it.

Now regarding "turn the other cheek." Remember that we shouldn't call this a law, because the Law of Moses says "eye for eye, and tooth for tooth." Jesus' teaching is greater than the law. To answer your question, I reconcile this teaching with war by reading what God teaches us through Saint Paul in Romans 13. Governmental authorities (not just America, but all governments) exist by the will of God. And they do not bear the sword in vain. Saint Paul tells us in Romans 12 that we should never avenge ourselves, but that we should leave it to the wrath of God (which is precisely what the Sermon on the Mount is all about). But a few sentences later, he tells us that the wrath of God is not something that will merely be revealed at the last day. God gives governments the sword so that they can execute God's wrath on the lawless man. Thus, the Afghanistan war was God's wrath on lawless men.

But merely because God uses governments does not mean that governments are the faithful servants of God. I believe that the Iraq war was an example of a government acting apart from the will of God.

You make a good point, except that a lot of innocent Afghanis also felt the "wrath of God". But anyway, this is something I do not have very strong opinions on, so I don't wish to debate it just yet. But i'm personally inclined to the notion that no war is ever justified.

 

[arunma]

You make a good point, except that a lot of innocent Afghanis also felt the "wrath of God". But anyway, this is something I do not have very strong opinions on, so I don't wish to debate it just yet. But i'm personally inclined to the notion that no war is ever justified.

Well, let's remember that governments aren't perfect. Saint Peter also wrote (1 Peter 2:17) that it is right to honor the emperor. One year after writing this, he was executed by Emperor Nero. We must remember that any government, even ungodly goverment, is better than no government. We need to look no further than Somalia to see the effects of anarchy.

 

[benmaarof]

I don't agree with quite everything that Saint Augustine wrote in his lifetime, but I agree with much of it.

Now regarding "turn the other cheek." Remember that we shouldn't call this a law, because the Law of Moses says "eye for eye, and tooth for tooth." Jesus' teaching is greater than the law. To answer your question, I reconcile this teaching with war by reading what God teaches us through Saint Paul in Romans 13. Governmental authorities (not just America, but all governments) exist by the will of God. And they do not bear the sword in vain. Saint Paul tells us in Romans 12 that we should never avenge ourselves, but that we should leave it to the wrath of God (which is precisely what the Sermon on the Mount is all about). But a few sentences later, he tells us that the wrath of God is not something that will merely be revealed at the last day. God gives governments the sword so that they can execute God's wrath on the lawless man. Thus, the Afghanistan war was God's wrath on lawless men.

But merely because God uses governments does not mean that governments are the faithful servants of God. I believe that the Iraq war was an example of a government acting apart from the will of God.

What planet have you been living in? The Taliban were not "lawles men". Women can't do that, women can't do this. Those were "laws" weren't they?

By the way, the Afghan war was more a war of vengence. No 9/11, no Afghan war. Just like WW2. No Pearl Harbour, no American involvement.

Turn the other cheek... my a$$-cheek.

 

[benmaarof]

benmaarof what makes Reincarnation as you say cheap I don't get what you are saying.

God can create new souls. No reason for Him to reuse old ones.