I'm bummed out on church

[FireDragon76]

Our pastor's preaching has become increasingly off-note. The revised common lectionary has difficult material, of course, but I feel like that's not an excuse. Her preaching has become moralistic in tone over the past year. I miss good evangelical Episcopalian/Anglican or Lutheran preaching. I feel like I'm wandering through a spiritual desert.

I gently approached the pastor today and asked her if by chance she wasn't raised Methodist, and she said she went to a Methodist seminary. I am not a fan of Wesleyan theology, and I think that partly explains what is going on. My orientation is towards Neo-orthodox Lutheran or Reformed theology as a touchstone, with significant influences of theological liberalism and post-liberal theology. Not Wesleyanism, which I consider too American, too enamored with human freedom and fundamentally anthropocentric, and with too light a view of human sinfulness.

I tried explaining to her my (mostly Lutheran) understanding of faith and baptism and it went over her head. Later, we had another conversation over lunch and I used another conversation as a way to try to reintroduce those topics gently, and I think it might have helped her appreciate my perspective . But it's always a difficult issue to talk theology in a sensitive manner.

I appreciate the relationships I have built at church, but theologically, my UCC congregation's worship is like cotton candy. Sweet, but also bland, empty of substance and not particularly good for you. I may have to be re-evaluating what church I go to. It's something I need to prayerfully consider.

 

[RileyG]

[posting in fellowship]

I know nothing about Wesleyan/Methodist, Lutheran, Anglican/Episcopalian, or Reformed/Presbyterian theology or practices, such as I haven't studied much of ANY Protestant theology, HOWEVER, I DO PRAY you will find peace and fulfillment.

His grace and peace to you.

God bless you!

 

[FireDragon76]

[posting in fellowship]

I know nothing about Wesleyan/Methodist, Lutheran, Anglican/Episcopalian, or Reformed/Presbyterian theology or practices, such as I haven't studied much of ANY Protestant theology, HOWEVER, I DO PRAY you will find peace and fulfillment.

His grace and peace to you.

God bless you!

Wesleyanism is probably closest to Catholicism in some ways. Most American Evangelicals now days are some flavor of Wesleyan in their theology.

Reformed and Lutherans have a stronger view of human sinfulness and our inability to overcome sin in this life. Holiness is more contextualized in terms of our vocation, and less in terms of a specific "method" of how we should live our lives. You can find this in some contemporary Evangelical pastors, but mostly it's not something that resonates with American optimism, especially in modern America (at one time, American Protestants were nearly all Reformed in their theology).

 

[RileyG]

Wesleyanism is probably closest to Catholicism in some ways. Most American Evangelicals now days are some flavor of Wesleyan in their theology.

Reformed and Lutherans have a stronger view of human sinfulness and our inability to overcome sin in this life. Holiness is more contextualized in terms of our vocation, and less in terms of a specific "method" of how we should live our lives. You can find this in some contemporary Evangelical pastors, but mostly it's not something that resonates with American optimism, especially in modern America (at one time, American Protestants were nearly all Reformed in their theology).

Thanks for your input. I wonder how similar Wesleyanism is to Anglicanism, but I do not want to go off topic in your thread.

Take care.

 

[FireDragon76]

Thanks for your input. I wonder how similar Wesleyanism is to Anglicanism, but I do not want to go off topic in your thread.

The Anglican reformation was shaped by Reformed theology from Geneva and lower Germany. The Evangelical stream of Anglicanism is very much shaped by that still. There are differences from other Reformed churches, however, in terms of the emphasis, with the early, dominant High Church stream being more Lutheran in tone.

 

[FireDragon76]

We went out with our pastor to lunch to have a discussion. It was an enlightening conversation, but unfortunately it illuminates disagreements or misunderstandings about religion. Our pastor doesn't seem to be confessionally Reformed in any meaningful sense that I can discern, since anything like traditional Evangelical (in the European sense) doctrine was seemingly problematic to her ears, and she defaulted to a kind of Arminian understanding of God and salvation very much relying upon American moralistic therapeutic deism as the driving emphasis of her religion.

I really have reservations about our discussion, and I underestimated how unpleasant those kinds of discussions can be, even if they end in the most friendly of ways. She is ostensibly a kind and loving person, but I think beneath the surface is alot of foolishness and shallow religious sentimentality.

 

[FireDragon76]

Unfortunately, this past Easter Sunday's sermon was a stinker at our congregation.

In the past few months, I've been feeling unsatisfied at church. I am just not optimistic about life anymore, and I miss a more grace-centered message.

I found this sermon online from the Episcopalian bishop of Washington, D.C., Marianne Budde, and I think it's more like what I needed to hear:

I've also looked up some Lutheran (ELCA) sermons online, as well as a half dozen or so sermons from other UCC churches, just to get a feel for denominational differences While there are some UCC pastors that seem to be just decent preachers (particularly in the German Reformed branch of the denomination), none seem to be what I'd consider all that great. Most seem to be moralistic, though it's often soft-pedalled, similar to what you'ld hear in a Unitarian Universalist church. So not-so-great preaching seems to be far more typical than otherwise in this denomination.

 

[RileyG]

Unfortunately, this past Easter Sunday's sermon was a stinker at our congregation.

In the past few months, I've been feeling unsatisfied at church. I am just not optimistic about life anymore, and I miss a more grace-centered message.

I found this sermon online from the Episcopalian bishop of Washington, D.C., Marianne Budde, and I think it's more like what I needed to hear:

I've also looked up some Lutheran (ELCA) sermons online, as well as a half dozen or so sermons from other UCC churches, just to get a feel for denominational differences While there are some UCC pastors that seem to be just decent preachers (particularly in the German Reformed branch of the denomination), none seem to be what I'd consider all that great. Most seem to be moralistic, though it's often soft-pedalled, similar to what you'ld hear in a Unitarian Universalist church. So not-so-great preaching seems to be far more typical than otherwise in this denomination.

If it’s ok to ask, what was the sermon about from your pastor? I know you stated she’s an elderly woman? Is she possibly in cognitive decline?

I hope you find answers soon.

Take care

(Posting in fellowship)

 

[FireDragon76]

If it’s ok to ask, what was the sermon about from your pastor? I know you stated she’s an elderly woman? Is she possibly in cognitive decline?

It was like a Joel Osteen type sermon about God rolling away obstacles in our life. Mercifully, it wasn't too long.

I sometimes wonder if she really sees the people in the church as actual people. Most people in the church are near the end of their life, or they are LGBT people, some of whom have delt with homelessness. There's maybe only one younger family that is thinking about joining (and they may just be expressing an interest merely in having their child baptised, it's hard to tell with lapsed catholics). It isn't how I would pastor that kind of congregation.

I don't think its necessarily cognitive decline, anymore, so much as low standards in our denomination for preaching. I also suspect a change in the political mood of the country may have had an effect on her, and it's not being expressed in a healthy way. She may be "shutting down", so to speak, and reverting to a kind of spiritual default. At least that is my best guess.

 

[RileyG]

It was like a Joel Osteen type sermon about God rolling away obstacles in our life. Mercifully, it wasn't too long.

I sometimes wonder if she really sees the people in the church as actual people. Most people in the church are near the end of their life, or they are LGBT people, some of whom have delt with homelessness. There's maybe only one younger family that is thinking about joining (and they may just be expressing an interest merely in having their child baptised, it's hard to tell with lapsed catholics). It isn't how I would pastor that kind of congregation.

I don't think its necessarily cognitive decline, anymore, so much as low standards in our denomination for preaching. I also suspect a change in the political mood of the country may have had an effect on her, and it's not being expressed in a healthy way. She may be "shutting down", so to speak, and reverting to a kind of spiritual default. At least that is my best guess.

Ah, I see.

My only experience in attending a non-Catholic Church service (outside of a funeral or wedding) was when I had to do a Church visitation in college for a project over 10 years ago at the United Church of Christ.

The pastor, a woman, who was first ordained in the Disciples of Christ, and later dually-ordained in the United Church of Christ, sermon was about how the family is no longer about the normal heterosexual nuclear family you see today. I remember it being 45 minutes long, so I do not recall much detail. It very much felt like a lecture. Again, I have no experience in attending Protestant Churches, so I have zero idea what is considered the "norm" for a sermon, liberal or otherwise. So I really cannot comment. Just sharing my experience.

God bless you, my friend.

(posting in fellowship)

 

[FireDragon76]

Ah, I see.

My only experience in attending a non-Catholic Church service (outside of a funeral or wedding) was when I had to do a Church visitation in college for a project over 10 years ago at the United Church of Christ.

The pastor, a woman, who was first ordained in the Disciples of Christ, and later dually-ordained in the United Church of Christ, sermon was about how the family is no longer about the normal heterosexual nuclear family you see today. I remember it being 45 minutes long, so I do not recall much detail. It very much felt like a lecture. Again, I have no experience in attending Protestant Churches, so I have zero idea what is considered the "norm" for a sermon, liberal or otherwise. So I really cannot comment. Just sharing my experience.

God bless you, my friend.

(posting in fellowship)

It varies from denomination to denomination.

Ah, I see.

My only experience in attending a non-Catholic Church service (outside of a funeral or wedding) was when I had to do a Church visitation in college for a project over 10 years ago at the United Church of Christ.

The pastor, a woman, who was first ordained in the Disciples of Christ, and later dually-ordained in the United Church of Christ, sermon was about how the family is no longer about the normal heterosexual nuclear family you see today. I remember it being 45 minutes long, so I do not recall much detail. It very much felt like a lecture

Yes, that seems to be representative of about half of the sermons I have seen in the UCC. Just scriptural exposition, often mixed with a great deal of contemporary focus and moralism.

Lutherans are particularly sensitive to moralism as something to avoid in preaching. Theoretically, so should Reformed Protestants. But in practice, moralism became the default preaching style in the US. I think because moralism is a very "practical" kind of preaching, at least on first glance.