I'm *BEYOND* Terrified of Going to Hell; Please Help!!!!

[JackRT]

So what your saying is, what we do is what determines our Salvation, not what Jesus did for us?

That is what scripture is saying.

 

[JIMINZ]

That is what scripture is saying.

Really! Have you not read?

Mar 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;
but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Where is sin in either of those statements?

Everyone who does not BELIEVE are Sinners.

Believers have been forgiven their sins because of their Belief in Jesus Christ, they are not Sinners.

Therefore what your saying in essence is correct, but that is a default understanding, ie, Sinners go to Hell.

Are you saying, "Believers will go to Hell as well"?

 

[JackRT]

Really! Have you not read?

Mar 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;
but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Where is sin in either of those statements?

Everyone who does not BELIEVE are Sinners.

Believers have been forgiven their sins because of their Belief in Jesus Christ, they are not Sinners.

Therefore what your saying in essence is correct, but that is a default understanding, ie, Sinners go to Hell.

Are you saying, "Believers will go to Hell as well"?

So are you suggesting that there are contradictions in scripture?

 

[JIMINZ]

The Lord says that those who have done good will be saved & those who were evil will not. See: John 5:22-30 (note an earlier revelation in Daniel 12:1-4).

Jesus was not speaking to Christians, (John 5:22-30) He was speaking expressly to the Jews, Jesus was also not speaking about Christians or even every man doing Good, or Evil, He was speaking about those who were already dead at that time (Before His coming).

It should also be understood, (Daniel 12:1-4) is speaking of the same time period, the one in which Jesus was alive.

You cannot take the events spoken of in these verses, and apply them to today, or even into the future, they are and were Time Specific, to the people of that time, the Jews in particular, not Christians especially all those peoples of Today.

For Christians we are saved by grace unto good works. See: Ephesians 2:8-10

You make (Eph. 2:8-10) sound as though it is a suggestion from God to the Christian Believer, as though the doing of good works for the Christian is arbitrary. This belief shows a clear lack of understanding what was gained by the Christian.

For the non Christian God will judge them as to how their conscience led them to good or evil. see Romans 2

Your assessment of (Rom. 2:1-11) is that people go to Hell because they are sinners, where the committing of Evil deeds (Sin) far outweigh the Good deeds (Works).
Do you not remember, Paul has already said, we are all Evil before our conversion.

Rom 3:9-11
9) What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10) As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11) There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

The Lord said if we love Him we will keep His commandments. See John 14:15-18, Matthew 6:1-14, Matthew 19:16-19, Matthew 7:1-12, Matthew 22:36-40, Romans 13:8-10 etc.

Jesus was specifically speaking to the Jews of that time.

Christians are called to commitment in living our faith or we will be cast off ( Matthew 24:45-51, Romans 11:22 etc.).

Complete misunderstanding of what both of those verses are speaking about.
Were not called, as though we have the right to decline the call, we are changed because of our Belief, the old man is dead, all things have become new.

While the non Christian faces greater peril, that person can still be saved as the Lord judges their works ( Revelation 20:11-15 etc. ).

Greater peril my left foot, is it your belief, Believers will be going to Hell?

What good then is the Book of Life?

The prophet Ezekiel noted the uncertainty of our fate according to our works ( Ezekiel 33:12-20).

Again, (Ezekiel 33:12-20) was not written to us ,it is time and people specific, Prophetic for the Jews the Israelite's.

 

[JIMINZ]

So are you suggesting that there are contradictions in scripture?

Is that what I said?
The only contradictions are in your mind, because of a lack of understanding where it is a Believer actually stands in Christ.

If a person identifies themselves as a Freethinker, where in the spectrum of Christendom does that Denomination fall, or is it not even on the chart?

 

[JIMINZ]

So are you suggesting that there are contradictions in scripture?

Your one liners do not constitute a conversation, rebuttal, or even a debate.
I constantly have to guess or assume what it is you truly believe, you make veiled general statements, without ever voicing your actual stance on the matter.

 

[JIMINZ]

So are you suggesting that there are contradictions in scripture?

Where is the so called contradiction?

 

[Lukaris]

So what your saying is, what we do is what determines our Salvation, not what Jesus did for us?

No, without what He has done for us salvation by the resurrection would not be possible ( 1 Corinthians 15:12-17).He judges what is good or evil ( John 5:28-29) & has mercy on whom He has mercy ( Romans 9:14-18). We must cooperate in living by faith & do what is right ( Ephesians 2:8-10, 1 John 2:1-11 etc. ).

 

[Lukaris]

Jesus was not speaking to Christians, (John 5:22-30) He was speaking expressly to the Jews, Jesus was also not speaking about Christians or even every man doing Good, or Evil, He was speaking about those who were already dead at that time (Before His coming).

It should also be understood, (Daniel 12:1-4) is speaking of the same time period, the one in which Jesus was alive.

You cannot take the events spoken of in these verses, and apply them to today, or even into the future, they are and were Time Specific, to the people of that time, the Jews in particular, not Christians especially all those peoples of Today.



You make (Eph. 2:8-10) sound as though it is a suggestion from God to the Christian Believer, as though the doing of good works for the Christian is arbitrary. This belief shows a clear lack of understanding what was gained by the Christian.



Your assessment of (Rom. 2:1-11) is that people go to Hell because they are sinners, where the committing of Evil deeds (Sin) far outweigh the Good deeds (Works).
Do you not remember, Paul has already said, we are all Evil before our conversion.

Rom 3:9-11
9) What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10) As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11) There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.



Jesus was specifically speaking to the Jews of that time.



Complete misunderstanding of what both of those verses are speaking about.
Were not called, as though we have the right to decline the call, we are changed because of our Belief, the old man is dead, all things have become new.



Greater peril my left foot, is it your belief, Believers will be going to Hell?

What good then is the Book of Life?



Again, (Ezekiel 33:12-20) was not written to us ,it is time and people specific, Prophetic for the Jews the Israelite's.

The keeping of the Lord’s commandments is required in both covenants since the Lord says that these are the Law & Prophets (Matthew 7:12, Matthew 22:36-40). This is attested to by the ancient church in a 1st century church manual called the Didache CHURCH FATHERS: The Didache I did not say works are arbitrary to faith which is why I always cite ( Ephesians 2:8-10).

Does it bother you that the Lord will be merciful to those He says did good vs. those who did evil? ( John 5:28-29). I take His Word, as paltry as I might, to apply to love, faith, & hope for others ( 1 Corinthians 13:12-13).

Lastly, how your right or left foot applies is something you must know. Hypocrisy can be a Christian or non Christian issue (speaking in general terms). Just cause someone says they are Christian does not always apply( I do not consider myself immune) Who do you think the Lord is speaking to in Matthew 24:44-51??

 

[JIMINZ]

Lastly, Who do you think the Lord is speaking to in Matthew 24:44-51??

Jesus was speaking to and about the Jewish people and Nation of that time.

Whom do you say the Lord is speaking?

 

[Lukaris]

Jesus was speaking to and about the Jewish people and Nation of that time.

Whom do you say the Lord is speaking?

To those who say they believe in Him as the Savior who would later be called: Christians ( Acts Of the Apostles 11:26). I believe the Lord spoke more of what is ongoing than in past tense. For ex. what He says in John 5:22-30 about those who have done good or evil applies to all people. The prophet Daniel said the same thing in Daniel 12:1-4 but he only knew as much as he could within the Law.

 

[JIMINZ]

To those who say they believe in Him as the Savior who would later be called: Christians ( Acts Of the Apostles 11:26). I believe the Lord spoke more of what is ongoing than in past tense. For ex. what He says in John 5:22-30 about those who have done good or evil applies to all people. The prophet Daniel said the same thing in Daniel 12:1-4 but he only knew as much as he could within the Law.

You just don't get it and cannot separate the two, I will simplify it for you.

1) Jesus' being Messiah and His Ministry to the Jews.
2) Jesus' being Savior of the world.

Mat. 10:6
But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Mat. 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

This means, there were things said to the Jewish people by Jesus that did not then, nor do they now, relate to Christians.

 

[Lukaris]

You just don't get it and cannot separate the two, I will simplify it for you.

1) Jesus' being Messiah and His Ministry to the Jews.
2) Jesus' being Savior of the world.

Mat. 10:6
But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Mat. 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

This means, there were things said to the Jewish people by Jesus that did not then, nor do they now, relate to Christians.

So basic commands of God for our moral conduct are stuck in time? I thought the Lord came to fulfill the Law? I am speaking of our basic requirements of faith to the Lord Who took upon our sins in His Incarnation, preaching the Gospel, His death on the Cross, His resurrection, & Ascension.

The commandments precede the 10 commandments in the covenant going back to Noah ( Genesis 9:1-17) which was more spiritually understood. How else are we accountable for disobeying the moral law St. Paul preaches about in Romans 1?

You basically say that most of what the Lord says in His Gospels is in the past. The Lord reiterates the keeping of the commandments as contingent upon receiving the Holy Spirit ( John 14:15-18). We should all know that the Holy Spirit did not descend until Pentecost ( Acts of the Apostles 2). St. John in his 1st letter says the new commandment is really an old commandment and that those who say they know the Lord will keep the commandments ( 1 John 2).

The Lord told the rich young man to keep the commandments (Matthew 19:16-19). The young man assumed too much of himself so the Lord said if he wished to be perfect then: ( Matthew 19:20-24). St. Paul reiterates the same commandments in Romans 13:8-10. I cited in another post an ancient church manual (1st c. AD) that is set up along the commandments to love God & neighbor followed by the Lord’s preaching of alms giving, prayer, & fasting (Matthew 6:1-18). Yet you say, oh no, the Lord is always talking to the Jews.

 

[JIMINZ]

So basic commands of God for our moral conduct are stuck in time? I thought the Lord came to fulfill the Law? I am speaking of our basic requirements of faith to the Lord Who took upon our sins in His Incarnation, preaching the Gospel, His death on the Cross, His resurrection, & Ascension.

The commandments precede the 10 commandments in the covenant going back to Noah ( Genesis 9:1-17) which was more spiritually understood. How else are we accountable for disobeying the moral law St. Paul preaches about in Romans 1?

You basically say that most of what the Lord says in His Gospels is in the past. The Lord reiterates the keeping of the commandments as contingent upon receiving the Holy Spirit ( John 14:15-18). We should all know that the Holy Spirit did not descend until Pentecost ( Acts of the Apostles 2). St. John in his 1st letter says the new commandment is really an old commandment and that those who say they know the Lord will keep the commandments ( 1 John 2).

The Lord told the rich young man to keep the commandments (Matthew 19:16-19). The young man assumed too much of himself so the Lord said if he wished to be perfect then: ( Matthew 19:20-24). St. Paul reiterates the same commandments in Romans 13:8-10. I cited in another post an ancient church manual (1st c. AD) that is set up along the commandments to love God & neighbor followed by the Lord’s preaching of alms giving, prayer, & fasting (Matthew 6:1-18). Yet you say, oh no, the Lord is always talking to the Jews.

Like I said you just don't get it.

I'm sure you have the Parables worked into your belief of Salvation and Christianity as well.

Your talking about the overall general things Christ taught and what Christians should both know and do, while I am talking about the specifics of what Jesus was saying to the Jewish People and also to who he was teaching... (Disciples)
99% of the time Jesus spoke, He was addressing either the Jews, or the Disciples, you need to understand the difference in what He was saying to both and have the ability to separate the two, not everything He said pertains to Christians, and not everything He said pertains only to the Jews.

I'll tell you honestly, this is something you will never believe, because you have already been taught something else.

We can talk around and around and it will lead nowhere, do you see a reason to continue?

 

[Lukaris]

Like I said you just don't get it.

I'm sure you have the Parables worked into your belief of Salvation and Christianity as well.

Your talking about the overall general things Christ taught and what Christians should both know and do, while I am talking about the specifics of what Jesus was saying to the Jewish People and also to who he was teaching... (Disciples)
99% of the time Jesus spoke, He was addressing either the Jews, or the Disciples, you need to understand the difference in what He was saying to both and have the ability to separate the two, not everything He said pertains to Christians, and not everything He said pertains only to the Jews.

I'll tell you honestly, this is something you will never believe, because you have already been taught something else.

We can talk around and around and it will lead nowhere, do you see a reason to continue?

No, I was just defending my position.

 

[ViaCrucis]

You just don't get it and cannot separate the two, I will simplify it for you.

1) Jesus' being Messiah and His Ministry to the Jews.
2) Jesus' being Savior of the world.

1 and 2 are the same thing.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[JIMINZ]

1 and 2 are the same thing.

-CryptoLutheran

You too? - - - Not really.

 

[ViaCrucis]

You too? - - - Not really.

"Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, and in His name repentance and forgiveness of sins will be proclaimed to all nations, beginning in Jerusalem." - Luke 24:46-47

-CryptoLutheran

 

[JIMINZ]

"Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, and in His name repentance and forgiveness of sins will be proclaimed to all nations, beginning in Jerusalem." - Luke 24:46-47

-CryptoLutheran

1) Did Jesus open the Disciples understanding before He was Crucified or after?
2) Did Jesus ever open the understanding of the Jewish people to what his mission ultimately was?

Mat. 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Doesn't sound as though anybody but Jesus knew what His ultimate purpose actually was, until after the fact, therefore two separate and distinct Ministries, one to the Jews, and one to the World because, of the Jews rejection of their Messiah.

Jesus never once Preached Belief in his name for the forgiveness of sins, until after the Crucifixion, Resurrection and His issuing of the Great Commission.

Mar 16:14-16
14) Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
15) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Luke 24:36
And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

Luk 24:45-48
45) Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46) And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47) And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48) And ye are witnesses of these things.

 

[Lukaris]

So Christians need not take the Lord’s preaching in Matthew 4:17, His prayer ( Matthew 6:9-13), or that Matthew 5:17 ties in with Romans 13:8-10 or that Matthew 7:12, Matthew 19:16-19, & Matthew 22:36-40 all tie in, or that John 3:16-21 is for us also.

Then what does Acts of the Apostles 15:20-29 mean without the parables, the Lord’s commandments, prayer, fasting etc. (Acts of the Apostles 14:21-28) etc. ??? The Lord said to love God and neighbor is St. Paul not explaining this in 1 Corinthians 13????..