I'm an Atheist

[PostTribber]

....everyone asks for a sign from Heaven. "Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son." this was prophesied by Isaiah 700 years before the birth of Christ. many other prophecies were fulfilled by Jesus while He was here on earth. "God is not a man that He should lie."

 

[MOSSBERG32908]

....everyone asks for a sign from Heaven. "Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son." this was prophesied by Isaiah 700 years before the birth of Christ. many other prophecies were fulfilled by Jesus while He was here on earth. "God is not a man that He should lie."

i dont

 

[Key]

I figure I'll just give your last few posts a shot, and see what I am dealing with. Hope you don't mind.

New Forum.. new rules.. new situation, so...gotta back track a bit...

NO DEBATING< NOT MY INTENTION!!! Ok so here the deal, I'm an atheist, I don't see logic or reason behind purely faith based religions. I really dont care about the whole god thing, but I deal that I have a need for after life, I get scared some times when I think about death, being atheist nothing would happen, I would just be gone and thats the end of that. But I will not let my self be scared into a religion, I will not let it happened, and i seek after life and thats it. It's for personal gain. I wont allow my self to believe in something because I want and not because I actually believe in it.

Ok, your desire is only for personal gain. Got it.

You only desire an "after life" anything else is of no value to you. Got it.

And you gotta believe it... because... you believe it... not because you just want to believe it... Got it.

The are two ways that I can believe in religion. 1) A god figure comes to me to show me the " right path " if you will.

Ok, so you get a sign from a god directly, and it tells you what to believe. Noted.

2) I used to be a believe of physics, atheism deters that. Silva Brown was one that interests me. Now if I could talk to such a person and they can prove their self to me, I mean really really prove them self, then I can believe that they can tell me the right answer

Used to believe Physics.. how can you "used to believe" the scientific laws governing all matter in our universe? In a sense, if you believe or do not believe, Physics, and it's laws and calculation's will still be in effect and still govern your life.

Physics, is not a matter of belief, as far as I know.

well actually this site just came up on google and i figured ill give it a shot.

Cool !

and i cant accept that god just is, if it goes against some lame rule than too bad. Sometimes i get heated when the religion section comes up, I highly highly dought i will ever become a christian...again.

again?

I wont happen, I have found conselation somewhere else, Buddhism, Buddha's out look on life and death is right on the spot with me, i see that there is a religion for me. Buhhda was acked about a sort of god figure, he told people to make up their own mind about that subject, he let people believe and not believe what they wanted he told people that what he said may not be true and not to take everything he says as fact and truth. This seems like something i like.

Could you tell me where you are getting this from?

This is not Buddhism as I know it.

Maybe this is some new wave feel good warm fuzzy spin off, that is trying to gain some credit by saying they are part of Buddhism?

The Christian world has the bible shoved down their throat, they are told what to do. God seems kinda like a dictator to me, say that we have to do or can not do certain thing without questioning him, this is basically the definition of a tyrant. I'm sorry if I offended any body but I will not cover up what I feel to anyone.

Ok, well then, I would have to say, that maybe Christianity is not for you, if this is the way you feel.

I have a different view of God, and Christ, but it seems you have made up your mind regarding this.

jesus isn't living, hes dead, hes a 2000 year old preacher who was killed, thats that,

I guess you can cling to that as well.

and you talk about Buddhism as if it would destroy me, hmmm, how many war have been started by Buddhist...hmm,

Pacifist do not start wars, they give up in the name of peace. Which is what the Buddha taught.

Theirs this one war im thinking of...oh yes it was called the crusades, or the 100years war,

Please pick one or the other, the Crusades were a coalition attempt to reclaim the Holy Land, and was done in 3 waves, the first one, never got off the ground, the second was children, who went in peace, to reclaim the holy lands and were slaughtered by the Muslims, the Third was Retribution for Muslims killing the Children of the previous "crusade" and to reclaim the Holy Land, which is the one you might be thinking about.

Now, the 100 years war was a war fought between England and France.

but wait that had nothing to do with Buddhist's silly me, that was the christians killing Muslims, oops. But wait they didn't only kills Islamic people, sometimes on the way to the middle east they would meet up with Jews, and you know what they would do, they would gather them all in the temple of their town that they established, then they would burn it to the ground with them inside.

Please cite sources, as I have not heard of this, this however was done in Germany during the reign of Hitler, but it was done to Christians and any that opposed the fuhrer.

Well if manner of the people are any measure of the religion then Buddhism seems the better choice.

I guess, just ignoring the world, and rolling over at what comes your way, can seem like a great choice, until you are asked to lay down your own arms and freedoms, in the name of peace.

almost No one can prove to me that god exist,

almost?

you say that Buddha was not the son of god, how do you know jesus was. You think you are right, why? Because a ancient book told you so. Well the Muslims have a ancient book the tells them things,

I am not sure your point?

so your logic seems to fit with other religions, you can not tell me that you know you are right without other religions with the same sort of "truth" as you being right.

this would involve a long drawn out historical lesson, with all kinds of links and evidence, that would fall on deaf ears. But, the claims made to the truth of Christianity, are not arbitrary.

So you see Buddhism as dark, and Christianity Light. Well as I said above I think not.

Ok, we have already established that, it is most likely Christianity is not for you anyway.

Siddartha's look apon death has some what aleaved me, he was wise, and he was truthful. He was real, jesus pretended to be some one the he was not, can I prove it no, but I could go kill somebody and I could say that Zeus came down from the sky and struck the man down.

So, what you are saying, is that you think, or want to believe, that Jesus was pretending to be what he was not, and you can not back up this claim.

As for your little claim, there is still an issue of evidence, but why get involved with details.

it seems you have a lot of Hostility regarding Christianity, as such, maybe it would be better if you just went your own way, followed this Buddha thing, which might give you some inner peace, after all that is what Buddha taught in the first place, was to find inner peace, and tranquility with one's self.

If it brings you to peace with yourself, then maybe this Buddha thing might be the best for you, when you can come to terms with your own emotions and angers, then maybe we can have a civil discussion.

If there were no witnesses or anything of the sort you could not prove me wrong, there no evidence against it, just like god, you can't prove soemthings not there, can you.

Depends.. I mean, why get into forensics at this point.

listen all your talk is just that, its pointless, you say he has risen because, like I said before, a really old book told you, take the bible as the king arthur story, people thought that arthur was real man but made him into more than he realy was, this is like jesus, they made a crazed preacher look like a god. and im not afraid of death, maybe you should read before you talk. the thing that I fear is nothingness after death. But, i think recently i have come to terms with that through something else. If a persons logic is any measure a person then you aren't to bright are you. And christians were a part of the crusades are you completely seniale, christian always say that that other religions are wrong, they took it a step further and killed the ones they hated most, the pope is the one who called the crusades, maybe you should read, it helps. An another thing it doesn't matter what a rotten book says what a christian is, the people make it what it is. And personally I am disgusted with the christian society. How many problems do have from atheists hmm

I hope some day you can find a level of inner peace and be able to maintain a level of civility about you, if that takes you to Buddhism, then that is where you should go.

I am not going to rage against you, or rage with you, you have made your choice really, before you even came here, so, all I can say, I hope you find peace, as it seems you are in dire need of finding something from what you have written do far.

Since I have not seen much in the way of questions, other then rhetorical questions, this is where I suppose it ends.

I wish you only the best.

God Bless

Key

 

[GreenMunchkin]

listen all your talk is just that, its pointless,

Firstly, hiya, and welcome to CF

Why do you think it's pointless?

you say he has risen because, like I said before, a really old book told you,

Hmm... that's not the only "proof" around, dude. For instance, did you know, Jesus appeared - in the flesh - to a really really remote village in China and spent time with them, and taught them the Bible? Years later, some missionaries turned up expecting a really hostile, confused reception, and instead, they discovered a village of people who had never seen a white person, didn't speak a word of English, has no Bibles in the village, had never once travelled beyond their village limits, and yet they all knoew the Bible and all knew Jesus. Their individual accounts completely tallied.

It wasn't some man claiming to be Jesus, because this place was truly remote. Impossible to reach on your own, and He just *appeared* to them all simultaneously.

Jesus has also appeared to people of other religions. India's most famous Christian went through a dramatic conversion to Christianity after Jesus appeared to him. The guy had no reason to lie. He became hated in his country after, but Jesus went to him and spoke to him and the guy just couldn't deny Jesus was the Truth, anymore.

Millions and millions of people can attest to a relationship with Him, also. Truly, millions of us. Jesus is as alive as you and I, bro.

take the bible as the king arthur story, people thought that arthur was real man but made him into more than he realy was, this is like jesus, they made a crazed preacher look like a god.

I'm not sure the comparison is wholly valid, because King Arthur *is* fictitious... even the most militant of atheists can't deny Jesus existed. Even Richard Dawkins acknowledges - however grudgingly - that Jesus existed. So your comparison falls down a bit there.

But on top of that, do you know reliable the Bible is? If you believe what you've heard and read about Julius Caesar, fo example, the historical support for Jesus is, literally, a thousand times stronger in terms of sheer numbers, and how the accounts match. Plus, don't forget, he is mentioned in places other than the Bible.

and im not afraid of death, maybe you should read before you talk. the thing that I fear is nothingness after death.

Things is, if you know the basics of physics, you know there can't be anything without its equal. Every action has a reaction. On that basis, do you truly believe we have 70 years or so of life and then just, nothing? It wouldn't make sense, scientifically. This life is just a tiny part. After this comes the rest of eternity, and we will all spend it either in Heaven, or in Hell. I know it's not a comfortable idea, but it's true. It really is. And God loves all of us enough to allow us to choose which we want.

He'll never force Himself on anyone. If you really do want to spend eternity without Him, He'll let you.

But, i think recently i have come to terms with that through something else. If a persons logic is any measure a person then you aren't to bright are you.

Sugar, people are here talking to you because you asked a question. You don't have to like the answers, but people are answering because they care, so while you don't have to like us, you do have to be courteous.

And christians were a part of the crusades are you completely seniale,

I get what you're saying... but put it this way. I could kick a puppy, then claim I did it because I'm a Buddhist. Would it make me a Buddhist? You have to understand that no-one who loves, or understands Jesus, or has accepted Him into their lives, could ever do something so appalling. They called themselves Christians, but they weren't. Same as I'm not a Buddhist just because I call myself one.

christian always say that that other religions are wrong, they took it a step further and killed the ones they hated most, the pope is the one who called the crusades, maybe you should read, it helps.

No Christian hates. I'll tell you what Christianity is: it's having your child murdered, and somehow forgiving the murderer, because Jesus forgave you first. It's blessing and praying for the people that harm you. That's what Jesus taught and, more importantly, what He did. Do we all succeed? No. If only. But people who truly love Him become more like Him slowly, because He changes you. I don't even know how He does it, because you don't feel it happening. It's just one day you suddenly realise He's freed you of something, or given you something, and it's amazing. But we're all sinners. Every single one of us.

An another thing it doesn't matter what a rotten book says what a christian is, the people make it what it is. And personally I am disgusted with the christian society. How many problems do have from atheists hmm

It's interesting. A lot of atheists say that. There's another thread here that discusses that at length. I'll go find the link and edit it in...

EDIT: I'll just copy and paste some of what I wrote instead of posting a link, cos you'll have to trawl through 5 pages of vry long posts to find the specific bit you want

Take Hitler, for example. There he was, reading Nietzsche's books - which stated God didn't exist. In fact, he was the first to say "God is dead". Hitler drank it all in and introduced Mussolini to his writings.

So Nietzsche's saying God is dead, in which case there's no reason to behave as if He does. You may as well do what you want because there's no moral arbiter, anymore. This is a quote of Hitler's: "I freed Germany from the stupid and degrading fallacies of conscience and morality... "
His belief that there was no God allowed him to believe morality was now moot, and that's what gave him "permission" in his eyes to do what he did.

His belief that God was dead meant he felt he was free to commit whatever atrocities he wanted. His racism was a seed; his fundamental militant atheism is what allowed him to do it and gave him the impetus to do it.
And the point is, no, he didn't do it in the name of some atheist god, but the issue is whether the world would be any better were atheism the main value system, and this shows that atheism does not equal a better society.

And don't forget, Hitler isn't the only atheist dictator to commit genocide, so he wasn't a one off.

 

[Gukkor]

You're young, Mossberg. Plenty of time for your beliefs to change and for you to find the path you're looking for. I was 17 only a couple of years ago, and yet my beliefs have changed in great and unexpected ways since then. Don't close yourself to any possibilities, and don't make assumptions about belief systems without double-checking them for yourself.

Oh, and while you refuse to believe something because you want to, which is principle I have much respect for, do be careful not to do the opposite either; that is, don't disbelieve something simply because you don't want to believe it. Whether you do one or the other, you will be living a lie. So, then, adopt the beliefs you think are true, and pay no attention to whether you "like" or "dislike" them.

God bless you on your search for truth, Mossberg.

 

[thinkfreelivefree]

Firstly, hiya, and welcome to CF

Why do you think it's pointless?

Hmm... that's not the only "proof" around, dude. For instance, did you know, Jesus appeared - in the flesh - to a really really remote village in China and spent time with them, and taught them the Bible? Years later, some missionaries turned up expecting a really hostile, confused reception, and instead, they discovered a village of people who had never seen a white person, didn't speak a word of English, has no Bibles in the village, had never once travelled beyond their village limits, and yet they all knoew the Bible and all knew Jesus. Their individual accounts completely tallied.

It wasn't some man claiming to be Jesus, because this place was truly remote. Impossible to reach on your own, and He just *appeared* to them all simultaneously.

Jesus has also appeared to people of other religions. India's most famous Christian went through a dramatic conversion to Christianity after Jesus appeared to him. The guy had no reason to lie. He became hated in his country after, but Jesus went to him and spoke to him and the guy just couldn't deny Jesus was the Truth, anymore.

I'm interested. Links or directions?

 

[GreenMunchkin]

I'm interested. Links or directions?

I can't remember where I read about them, but my friend and I discussed it at the time so if I can't find any links, I'll ask her tomorrow and post the book titles. Will have a look right now and hopefully be back in a bit. But if not, tomorrow.

 

[GreenMunchkin]

This article is about Sundar Singh. Still looking for his appearance to the village...

EDIT: Another guy who came to Christ dramatically is called Brother Yun. He wrote a book called "The Heavenly Man", all of which has been verified by many people. There's an article about him in CF's wiki, but his book is incredible.

Still looking for village incident.

 

[thinkfreelivefree]

Thank you, seems like an interesting read.

 

[GreenMunchkin]

Welcome That particular article isn't terribly extensive, actually. But there's much more on him out there if he piques your interest.

Here is a similar story, invlolving a Sikh couple, more modern.

Still looking for the Chinese village

 

[Zocrates]

that's a start, but, do you also come to realize that it is equally silly to make the claim "it just did, because I believe it just did with out a god" as to make the claim "a god made the universe".. both, are simply matters of faith.

No, one can be more silly than the other if one is based on our observances and one is just based on faith alone.

If think it's more probbaly that the world evolved because I see evolution on a smaller scale, therefore don't find it hard to imagine it happening on a much larger scale given millions of years. I see human ideas evolve (like our ideas of slavery have evolved to the point where it doesn't make moral sense to enslave people), so I believe a much larger picture of evolution is entirely possible.

I do not, however, see anything whatsoever in my life that suggests that walking on water or turning water into wine is possible in the least.

So, yes, I believe one is more silly than the other. But, I don't hold one as true over the other......allow me to repeat: I DO NOT BELIEVE ONE TO BE THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH OVER THE OTHER....but if I were to ask which made more sense, I would say evolution rather than creation, based on what I know of the world I live in.

In your case, if you say "Well, a god could have done it, or maybe it could have just poofed into being, I do not know" then you are being truthful to yourself. But to write off one as ridiculous, is a matter of faith, blind as it may be.

Just becsause I don't know the answer to how we got here doesn't mean one answer can't be more ridiculous. Surely you'd find it more ridiculous if I believed that Santa Claus was the one true creator of the universe, than if I said it was the christian god that created us.

But as it stands, you have faith, in the sense that you believe with out any supporting evidence that it will some day be figured out, and that it will provide proof that god does not exist. That is blind, powerful faith. You believe this, and you cling to it. And you have nothing, nothing at all, to support it.

No, I do not have blind faith that we will one day find out the answer to how we got here. That faith is conditional because it is based on the fact that we have found things out about our world that we didn't know before and we continue to make discoveries. It makes sense to me that as we continue to find out more, that we will ultimately find out more about our origins. How is that unreasonable to think? But no, I don't cling to any belief blindly. I have solid natural reasons for what I believe. I don't believe anything blindly just because someone told me or because I read it in a book.

You seem to try your darndest to get me and others to think that my belief is just as blind as yours, but it isn't. You really can't grasp that what I think and believe is all based on natural evidence....everything.

It is a belief that there is no God, as such, you take it on blind faith, with out one iota of evidence one direction or the other, that your stand "there is no god" is correct. IE: a Belief. A Belief based on blind faith of ones "feelings", none the less.

Try again....my belief is not that there is no god, but that I do not believe in a god....there's a difference. The first is stating a belief....the second is simply a rejection of someone else's belief. Once again, I do not rule out that god exists because that is impossible to know at this point and time, but this christian concept of what god is and how we came to be doesn't make sense to me, so I reject it. There is no faith involved. I do not have blind faith that there is no god.

This is yet another time where you misconstrue what atheism is. There are some atheists who actually believe that there is no god as the truth, but I do not. Theirs is a belief. They believe there is no god. I do not believe anything to be the abslute truth! I believe I'm wise enough to know that we cannot possibly know the truth right now whether it be from science or from a religious book. So I'm not going to make a truth claim right now.

Why is that? Why does physical matter not need an originator, but, a spiritual being, would need an originator?

I could ask you the question in reverse and you wouldn't be able to answer it because you know nothing about the origin of spirits. How do you know for a fact that spirits don't have a creator? God exists forever as a spiritual being but the universe can't exist forever as physical matter.....and you know this for an absolute fact? We could find out tomorrow that what we know to be the universe was just a part of the process that has lasted for eternity. Just because people claim to know the age of this universe doesn't mean something else couldn't have existed before that. Just like you know that I, Zocrates, have existed for 24 years, but before me, there was still a world outside of me that existed. How do you know that our universe isn't some 13 billion year old person that was birthed by some older universe? You don't, and I'm only speculating and I'm not completely serious with any of this. My only point is that we don't know right now, and I for one am not going to sit down and act like I know the truth when it's not possible to know it. Like I said, I'm perfectly fine with understanding that the answers are not here right now.

 

[GreenMunchkin]

More links

Can't find the one I initially spoke about so am gonna have to wait until tomorrow, but the links in this post are also of named individuals, and verifiable. x

 

[Key]

You really can't grasp that what I think and believe is all based on natural evidence....everything.

Really.. well this could be fun after all.....

Shall we play a game then?

Just a fun game of.. Logic and Evidence.

And see, who, is willing to grasp straws, and who is looking at the "Natural evidence"...

Do you feel up to the game?

God Bless

Key

 

[Zocrates]

Really.. well this could be fun after all.....

Shall we play a game then?

Just a fun game of.. Logic and Evidence.

And see, who, is willing to grasp straws, and who is looking at the "Natural evidence"...

Do you feel up to the game?

God Bless

Key

Sure, I'm willing to "play". So long as you understand that I don't believe anything to be 100% true (since that would be impossible), I only believe certain things with more certainty than others. Like it's far more certain that I am typing right now than I am sleeping in my bed right now.

 

[heymikey80]

NO DEBATING< NOT MY INTENTION!!! Ok so here the deal, I'm an atheist, I don't see logic or reason behind purely faith based religions. I really dont care about the whole god thing, but I deal that I have a need for after life, I get scared some times when I think about death, being atheist nothing would happen, I would just be gone and thats the end of that. But I will not let my self be scared into a religion, I will not let it happened, and i seek after life and thats it. It's for personal gain. I wont allow my self to believe in something because I want and not because I actually believe in it. The are two ways that I can believe in religion. 1) A god figure comes to me to show me the " right path " if you will. 2) I used to be a believe of physics, atheism deters that. Silva Brown was one that interests me. Now if I could talk to such a person and they can prove their self to me, I mean really really prove them self, then I can believe that they can tell me the right answer

Hm, "No debating!" and yet ... a debate.

What are your proof criteria? Why do they matter?

 

[Key]

Sure, I'm willing to "play". So long as you understand that I don't believe anything to be 100% true (since that would be impossible), I only believe certain things with more certainty than others. Like it's far more certain that I am typing right now than I am sleeping in my bed right now.

I can see a desire to already dismiss evidence at the outset, from this post. But I'll still see if this can.. go some place...

God Bless

Key

 

[Key]

No, one can be more silly than the other if one is based on our observances and one is just based on faith alone.

And if both are based on observations.

Then what?

If think it's more probbaly that the world evolved because I see evolution on a smaller scale, therefore don't find it hard to imagine it happening on a much larger scale given millions of years.

I don't see Evolution on a "smaller scale" I see adaptation, and what I have seen, and have studied, show that the large scale evolution, as it as been presented, is not possible.

I see human ideas evolve (like our ideas of slavery have evolved to the point where it doesn't make moral sense to enslave people), so I believe a much larger picture of evolution is entirely possible.

Humm, that would be a different type of "evolution", similar to the "Evolution of the Automobile" but, we both know that the Automobile is a construct of man, as such, it's evolution, would be an example of a "Creator - creation" relationship.

I do not, however, see anything whatsoever in my life that suggests that walking on water or turning water into wine is possible in the least.

so..? How does that fit into anything?

So, yes, I believe one is more silly than the other. But, I don't hold one as true over the other......allow me to repeat: I DO NOT BELIEVE ONE TO BE THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH OVER THE OTHER....but if I were to ask which made more sense, I would say evolution rather than creation, based on what I know of the world I live in.

Why?

Allow me to explain, the Evolution of the Automobile is a prime example of "God" creation, the First "Car" was made, and then improved upon, then other types of automobiles were made, trucks, jeeps, motorcycles, etc. Each is similar to the other in basic idea and construct, but each is it's own unique thing, that was created they were build from concept, thought and idea becoming reality.

Now if you can see this, in an everyday thing, like an Automobile, where there is a creator, and a creation, why is it so hard for you to grasp that life, our life, could have been applied the same way.

Look at computers and robots today, we have made them, but they also make reproductions of themselves, but their ability to reproduce, does not remove the existence of the originator, being something that they are not.

I see more support for Creator - Creation in our world, then I ever saw for Evolution.

Just becsause I don't know the answer to how we got here doesn't mean one answer can't be more ridiculous. Surely you'd find it more ridiculous if I believed that Santa Claus was the one true creator of the universe, than if I said it was the christian god that created us.

Only if Santa Clause was not some elf that supposedly lived in the north pole, who's sole job is to deliver presents to the nice little boys and girls (or coal to the naughty ones).

Now, in the sense of say.. Allah, well God or Allah, then you might have a stance. Both make the claim to have made all there is.

Then you would have to dig deeper.

No, I do not have blind faith that we will one day find out the answer to how we got here. That faith is conditional because it is based on the fact that we have found things out about our world that we didn't know before and we continue to make discoveries. It makes sense to me that as we continue to find out more, that we will ultimately find out more about our origins. How is that unreasonable to think? But no, I don't cling to any belief blindly. I have solid natural reasons for what I believe. I don't believe anything blindly just because someone told me or because I read it in a book.

Funny how this finding out about our origins goes, we can make up stories about what happened 100 million years ago, and think we hit the nail on the head, but there is so much dispute about an event that happened little more then 2000 years ago.

You seem to try your darndest to get me and others to think that my belief is just as blind as yours, but it isn't.

My belief is not blind in any way.

If yours was "as blind as mine" we might have a great discussion.

Try again....my belief is not that there is no god, but that I do not believe in a god....there's a difference. The first is stating a belief....the second is simply a rejection of someone else's belief. Once again, I do not rule out that god exists because that is impossible to know at this point and time, but this christian concept of what god is and how we came to be doesn't make sense to me, so I reject it. There is no faith involved. I do not have blind faith that there is no god.

Right, you claim to be Agnostic.

This is yet another time where you misconstrue what atheism is. There are some atheists who actually believe that there is no god as the truth, but I do not. Theirs is a belief. They believe there is no god.

I know there are different types of Atheist, I already in the past asked you to tell me which brand you follow, in another topic. You never answered.

I do not believe anything to be the abslute truth!

Is this a dogmatic belief ?

I could ask you the question in reverse and you wouldn't be able to answer it because you know nothing about the origin of spirits. How do you know for a fact that spirits don't have a creator?

That is true, but I do know the nature and rules and laws governing matter. Which is a difference.

I know, that matter would need a creator, or a "first clause", I can not, nor can anyone, say that Spirit must obey the same rules.

Left with what I do know, I would easly conceed that Sprit does not need a creator, but matter does.

God exists forever as a spiritual being but the universe can't exist forever as physical matter.....and you know this for an absolute fact?

Buncha laws really go against the whole "Forever Universe" thing.

So, I would have to remove that as a possibility, if I was to maintain any semblance of logic or rational thought. If I was to entertain that the universe existed forever, I would have to let go of all that I have learned about Physics.

Something about Science, Logic, and rational thought, stop me from entertaining these types of things, like eternally old matter in the universe.

We could find out tomorrow that what we know to be the universe was just a part of the process that has lasted for eternity.

We could, and that would open a whole new avenue.

I can not believe in spite of the evidence, nor can I cling to a vain hope that some day the evidence will change, I can only believe in support of the evidence. Hence why I am a Christian.

Just because people claim to know the age of this universe doesn't mean something else couldn't have existed before that. Just like you know that I, Zocrates, have existed for 24 years, but before me, there was still a world outside of me that existed. How do you know that our universe isn't some 13 billion year old person that was birthed by some older universe? You don't, and I'm only speculating and I'm not completely serious with any of this. My only point is that we don't know right now, and I for one am not going to sit down and act like I know the truth when it's not possible to know it. Like I said, I'm perfectly fine with understanding that the answers are not here right now.

Sounds fine, but, here is the way I look at it, I can sit on my hands going "I don't know" but then, at the same time, why are you here? I mean, what did you really hope to gain and find? Just some debate, annoy people, be a troll for 80+ posts, and tick people off, while you insult and belittle their belief.

If that is the case, your worse then scum.. and not worth the words I written to you so far.

However, so, if you don't know the answer, and you have not come seeking any answers, why are you here in the first place?

See, for me, I take what I know, and I apply it, as best as I can, if I am wrong, so be it. At least I made a choice, and my life has improved because of that choice, I have become a better person to both myself and those around me. I have found some peace and tranquility in my life. All good things, but, more then that, I believe as I believe, because the evidence supports it, and I can believe as I believe, knowing that this is not blind, but rational.

I'm here to help others, and try to answer there questions, maybe they can find the same measure of intelligence, emotional, and spiritual truthfulness with themselves as I have thought following Christ.

God Bless

Key

 

[climb8b]

just some encouragement for the OP.

I am an atheist too, i am spending my time concentrating on the "beforedeath" rather than the "afterlife"

Regards.

 

[Zocrates]

just some encouragement for the OP.

I am an atheist too, i am spending my time concentrating on the "beforedeath" rather than the "afterlife"

Regards.

Same here.

My 2 cents of how I see death...

When you die, you won't know about it, so why even worry about it? Think about it. Especially if you die in your sleep, you won't know it at all. You won't be conscious to know that you're dead.

The actual "act" of dying can be frightening, depending on how you die, but the actual "being dead" is nothing to worry about since you won't know what's going on.

At least that's the way I look at it. That's the way we all see other animals' deaths, so why would humans be any different? "Because the bible says so" I guess.

 

[Gukkor]

just some encouragement for the OP.

I am an atheist too, i am spending my time concentrating on the "beforedeath" rather than the "afterlife"

Regards.

Hey, I'm Christian and I concentrate far more on the "beforedeath" than the "afterlife."