Illegal Immigration

[KarateCowboy]

What a parochial view.

Does only America's environment matter, or does the whole world's?

Don't dodge the question.

Are you for or against preserving the environment in America. I am asking America specifically. Are you for that?

 

[Crazy Liz]

Don't dodge the question.

Are you for or against preserving the environment in America. I am asking America specifically. Are you for that?

I think I answered that question already.

No thanks, I'm not green for the sake of the environment alone or for the sake of the rich, but for the sake of people in general. If that means I'm not really green, then so be it. The environment is not the #1 value of morality.

The environment is a good, and has great value. However, I would not elevate it above social justice for all people.

 

[KarateCowboy]

I think I answered that question already.

No you did not. Do you want to preserve the environment in the USA?

The environment is a good, and has great value. However, I would not elevate it above social justice for all people.

Social justice? Is that somehow the antonym of anti-social justice? Justice is by nature social. How can it be made more social? And what does that have to do with immigration?

 

[Crazy Liz]

No you did not. Do you want to preserve the environment in the USA?

Sure, but not at the cost of keeping people in poverty whose situation is bad partly because of our government's policies.

Social justice? Is that somehow the antonym of anti-social justice? Justice is by nature social. How can it be made more social? And what does that have to do with immigration?

You've never heard the phrase social justice before?

 

[KarateCowboy]

Sure, but not at the cost of keeping people in poverty whose situation is bad partly because of our government's policies.

You seem to be a pretty reasonable person, so I'd like to introduce to you Immigration By the Numbers. The solution to poverty is not letting millions of people into the US and destroying our environment, culture, and economy. The solution is "blossom where you are planted" Please watch this video, it is very well respected and known
www.numbersusa.org

You've never heard the phrase social justice before?

I've heard it, but I think it's silly. It makes no sense. It's like "audible speaking", "cold ice", or "round circles".

 

[wanderingone]

that's the argument here as well but personally I know first hand this "taking their jobs" can be quite true. day laborers take working class jobs and pretty much make the equivalent of the guys working construction here legally. it's really a hardship on some. I still don't know if that is enough to keep the law from being unfair...

Yes.. but it's the employers who should be punished and met with disdain.I can't feel any personal offense at someone who comes here for a job when it's the American employer who is making the job available.

... and it's the American people who don't care to pay the actual cost of producing goods that contribute to what employers do.

I actually have no problem with someone who has been discovered to be in the US illegally being deported - . but I do have a problem when the person they work for faces no reasonable consequence for their part in inviting people to take the risk of coming here.

 

[Crazy Liz]

You seem to be a pretty reasonable person, so I'd like to introduce to you Immigration By the Numbers. The solution to poverty is not letting millions of people into the US and destroying our environment, culture, and economy. The solution is "blossom where you are planted" Please watch this video, it is very well respected and known
www.numbersusa.org

Ya know, his statistics may be correct, but he hides the ball with all the talk of helping those billions of other people some other way, while never suggesting people get involved in that. If he was really interested in helping the world, he'd say, "Look how trivial immigration is as a solution for worldwide poverty," and give some statistics showing what other methods would actually be effective, then motivate his audience to work and advocate for them. His rhetoric is aimed at salving the consciences of people who want to restrict immigration without doing anything else about worldwide poverty through self-justification.

I've heard it, but I think it's silly. It makes no sense. It's like "audible speaking", "cold ice", or "round circles".

Well, if you don't like the phrase, suggest another one. Since you understand what it means, are you opposed to the principles people generally have in mind when they use the phrase?

 

[Crazy Liz]

There is another problem with this whole "blossom where you are planted" idea. Whether you agree that humans are responsible for it or not, global climate change is a fact. Those who argue most strenuously that it is not caused by greenhouse gasses point to climate changes we know have happened on earth before.

During times of climate change, what happened? One of the things that happened was mass migrations of people from areas that became less habitable to areas that were more habitable.

If you do think the developed countries that produce greenhouse gasses are responsible for climate change, then it is unjust and oppressive to impose the burden of climate change on others, and then stop them from doing what humans do when the climate changes. The Sierra Club was nearly torn apart by this controversy a few years ago. One group of members wanted to restrict US immigration because immigrants, as they become more affluent, increase their ecological footprint. The argument was that they have less impact on the environment if they remain poor. Sure, they used prettier rhetoric than that to make their arguments, but the rest of the Sierra Club members saw through the rhetoric and were unwilling to adopt a club policy that had the aim of keeping poor people poor.

 

[homeofmew]

as a legal immigrant to the US I find it totally unfair that illegal immigrants can work some places.

 

[Meshavrischika]

Yes.. but it's the employers who should be punished and met with disdain.I can't feel any personal offense at someone who comes here for a job when it's the American employer who is making the job available.

... and it's the American people who don't care to pay the actual cost of producing goods that contribute to what employers do.

I actually have no problem with someone who has been discovered to be in the US illegally being deported - . but I do have a problem when the person they work for faces no reasonable consequence for their part in inviting people to take the risk of coming here.

i agree.

 

[Meshavrischika]

as a legal immigrant to the US I find it totally unfair that illegal immigrants can work some places.

see.... and it's people like you, who did it right, that need to be protected (maybe not the right word- but same spirit) as well from the injustice of others committing crimes and still being allowed to stay.

 

[Crazy Liz]

Yes.. but it's the employers who should be punished and met with disdain.I can't feel any personal offense at someone who comes here for a job when it's the American employer who is making the job available.

... and it's the American people who don't care to pay the actual cost of producing goods that contribute to what employers do.

I actually have no problem with someone who has been discovered to be in the US illegally being deported - . but I do have a problem when the person they work for faces no reasonable consequence for their part in inviting people to take the risk of coming here.

I think attitudes toward people who break laws should depend on whether or not the law they are breaking is just, and whether they break the laws in ways that relieve injustice or in ways that oppress.

I realize that there are both intended and unintended consequences of either following or keeping a law, just as there are intended and unintended consequences of making laws in the first place. In the case of illegal immigration, the consequence (intended or unintended) of creating an underclass that is easy pickings for exploitation and oppression is wrong. This does not mean everyone who hires an undocumented immigrant is exploitative and oppressive.

 

[Meshavrischika]

I think attitudes toward people who break laws should depend on whether or not the law they are breaking is just.

obviously most of the country who supports the legislation thinks it is just... and the courts.

we cannot pick and choose what law to follow because we think it is or is not just... otherwise the polygamists in Texas could just marry off children because they believe it is not just to limit marriage to consenting adults.

 

[Crazy Liz]

obviously most of the country who supports the legislation thinks it is just... and the courts.

we cannot pick and choose what law to follow because we think it is or is not just... otherwise the polygamists in Texas could just marry off children because they believe it is not just to limit marriage to consenting adults.

I respect you as a legal positivist. I am sorry you do not think people who disagree with your opinion deserve the same respect.

 

[Meshavrischika]

I respect you as a legal positivist. I am sorry you do not think people who disagree with your opinion deserve the same respect.

I think that my disagreement is not disrespectful??!! maybe it's the typeface instead of spoken word that presents it that way.... no telling.
You change the law... then offer pardon for tresspassers to that law... you can't just thwart the law itself and say it's okay because it was unjust (unjust being such a subjective term anyway that it requires a majority to agree what it is)

 

[Crazy Liz]

I think that my disagreement is not disrespectful??!! maybe it's the typeface instead of spoken word that presents it that way.... no telling.

You agreed with the statement that employers who break this law should be met with disdain. While you have spoken respectfully in this thread, you have, in respectful words, promoted an attitude toward people of conscience that is not respectful.

You change the law... then offer pardon for tresspassers to that law... you can't just thwart the law itself and say it's okay because it was unjust (unjust being such a subjective term anyway that it requires a majority to agree what it is)

This is a methodology for legal positivism within a democracy. Generally speaking, it works pretty well as a compromise that allows people to live together in peace in a democracy. However, there are exceptions. Do you think those who operated the underground railroad in the first half of the 19th century should be met with disdain? The literature I read as a child in school univocally praised them.

 

[Meshavrischika]

attitude toward people of conscience that is not respectful
?? you're going to have to explain what attitude you are perceiving (really, I don't understand what you're seeing in what I'm saying)

Do you think those who operated the underground railroad in the first half of the 19th century should be met with disdain? The literature I read as a child in school univocally praised them.
No, but I believe they knew what they were doing was illegal and they accepted the risk/responsibility for breaking the law... thankfully we call came to our senses and changed what was going on... (hence what I said before).

 

[wanderingone]

I think attitudes toward people who break laws should depend on whether or not the law they are breaking is just, and whether they break the laws in ways that relieve injustice or in ways that oppress.

I realize that there are both intended and unintended consequences of either following or keeping a law, just as there are intended and unintended consequences of making laws in the first place. In the case of illegal immigration, the consequence (intended or unintended) of creating an underclass that is easy pickings for exploitation and oppression is wrong. This does not mean everyone who hires an undocumented immigrant is exploitative and oppressive.

I believe that for the most part people who hire immigrants who do not legally have the right to work in the US are seeking to avoid something. (be it labor or safety issues or waiting to see what the temp agency sends over) We worked long and hard to get the limited labor benefits and protections we have in the US, and they are being taken away as fast as they can be. My sympathies for anyone who contributes to the economic subculture are limited.

 

[Crazy Liz]

attitude toward people of conscience that is not respectful
?? you're going to have to explain what attitude you are perceiving (really, I don't understand what you're seeing in what I'm saying)

Do you think those who operated the underground railroad in the first half of the 19th century should be met with disdain? The literature I read as a child in school univocally praised them.
No, but I believe they knew what they were doing was illegal and they accepted the risk/responsibility for breaking the law... thankfully we call came to our senses and changed what was going on... (hence what I said before).

I was commenting on this:

Yes.. but it's the employers who should be punished and met with disdain.

...

i agree.

Perhaps you only meant to agree with a different part of the post.

WRT the underground railroad, yes, the laws were changed. It took over 100 years. Do you think those who broke the law to facilitate slaves escaping should have been met with disdain at the time they did it? Do you think they should have obeyed the law while trying to get it changed?

 

[Meshavrischika]

I meant the punishment part.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

I think the people who broke the laws understood what they were doing and the consequences for what they did.... it's not a moral judgement to think that they deserved *under just the acceptance they broke the law* punishment... it is just truth... while the law was immoral... the act against it did break it and consequences are a natural part of life. KWIM? it's not that they were bad, or deserved it, but it is what was supposed to happen if they broke it and I think they accepted that and were just living as part of a greater purpose...