If you're engaged, is it still fornicating?

[BrotherAtArms]

Well, I unfortunately have to just agree to disagree with you. I'm not into the theological view of the Bible as much as the taking it for what it says. Most of your views seem very broad to me, but I will have to leave it between you and God. God be with you.

 

[rppearso]

Well, I unfortunately have to just agree to disagree with you. I'm not into the theological view of the Bible as much as the taking it for what it says. Most of your views seem very broad to me, but I will have to leave it between you and God. God be with you.

What would your opinion be of having a sexual marriage contract. Would breaking such a contract be grounds for divorce if both agree to it prior to marriage, like what is expected sexually in the marriage. I have found an interesting paper written on this topic, I wish Jesus had spoken more on this topic. I personally believe that if one partner withholds something another partner needs/wants and willingly causes them to struggle it should be brought into question if they are a believer with that established the believing partner is allowed to leave.

http://www.marriageradio.com/sexual_neglect_refusal_sexless_marriage.php

 

[ImperialPhantom]

What would your opinion be of having a sexual marriage contract. Would breaking such a contract be grounds for divorce if both agree to it prior to marriage, like what is expected sexually in the marriage. I have found an interesting paper written on this topic, I wish Jesus had spoken more on this topic. I personally believe that if one partner withholds something another partner needs/wants and willingly causes them to struggle it should be brought into question if they are a believer with that established the believing partner is allowed to leave.

http://www.marriageradio.com/sexual_neglect_refusal_sexless_marriage.php

I know this relates to your other post, and for you to think that your wife is "willingly causing you to struggle" by "withholding" that thing you posted about, is legally insane. You have a fetish, dude.

 

[BrotherAtArms]

What would your opinion be of having a sexual marriage contract. Would breaking such a contract be grounds for divorce if both agree to it prior to marriage, like what is expected sexually in the marriage. I have found an interesting paper written on this topic, I wish Jesus had spoken more on this topic. I personally believe that if one partner withholds something another partner needs/wants and willingly causes them to struggle it should be brought into question if they are a believer with that established the believing partner is allowed to leave.

http://www.marriageradio.com/sexual_neglect_refusal_sexless_marriage.php

Before answering I want to make sure I have what your asking clear.
You're asking that if I think it's OK to have a contract demanding from both parties in the marriage to give themselves in the manner the other desires? Because I know that Biblically the ONLY means of divorce is adultery. That is, having sex outside of marriage and/or lusting after another woman/man that is not your spouse (Adultery in the heart Matt. 5:28). I don't think a contract like that is Biblical at all.

If that's how you're asking, then I think I could only answer in one way. Love.

1 Cor. 13:4-5

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.

Taking from what I posted there, I should think that no matter what anyone does, or withholds from you, you should love them nonetheless.

I also would like to point out the patience part. The fruit of the spirit say 'patience' or rather 'long-suffering'. Read this part of an article I took from http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/217740/the_hardest_fruit_of_the_spirit.html

The fruit of the spirit patience does not mean the kind of patience we have when we are sitting at a red light or when we are at the DMV. The King James version of Galatians 5:22-23 doesn't even say patience, it says longsuffering. That's right, longsuffering, doesn't sound so great now does it? It's bad enough that suffering is a fruit of the spirit, but for it to be specifically LONG suffering makes it even worse.

The Bible says to pray for your enemies, that also a kind word is like heaping hot coals on their head. What am I saying? You say that your wife is doing you wrong by withholding herself to you sexually so you believe you have the right to reject her though that's not what the Bible says.

Marriage (ESPECIALLY for a Christian) is supposed to be our perfect picture of how God loves the Church. We love each other UNCONDITIONALLY as God loves us also. If we say, "Well I'll just get someone else to marry and she'll give me what I want", then what's keeping God from saying, "Well I'll just get a new human race to love me and they'll praise me and love me like they should"?
The command not to divorce (exception of adultery) was God's promise never to divorce us.

ADDITION: I know a lot of people like to use this argument "I feel it's OK in my heart".

Jeremiah 17:9 says:

The heart is deceitful above all things, and it is exceedingly perverse and corrupt and severely, mortally sick! Who can know it [perceive, understand, be acquainted with his own heart and mind]?

ADDITION #2: I'd also to add that the link you provided gives that verse, yet I want to use the word that is more closely interpreted from the original hebrew/greek texts instead of saying '[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]marital unfaithfulness', [/FONT]the amplified Bible puts it as[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] '[/FONT]unchastity' meaning

1.not chaste; not virtuous; not pure: an unchaste woman. 2.characterized by sexual suggestiveness, transgression, or excess; lascivious; bawdy: an unchaste exhibition.

which really doesn't appear to have anything to do with sex being withheld. [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]

 

[DanC922]

Before answering I want to make sure I have what your asking clear.
You're asking that if I think it's OK to have a contract demanding from both parties in the marriage to give themselves in the manner the other desires? Because I know that Biblically the ONLY means of divorce is adultery. That is, having sex outside of marriage and/or lusting after another woman/man that is not your spouse (Adultery in the heart Matt. 5:28). I don't think a contract like that is Biblical at all.

If that's how you're asking, then I think I could only answer in one way. Love.

1 Cor. 13:4-5
Taking from what I posted there, I should think that no matter what anyone does, or withholds from you, you should love them nonetheless.

I also would like to point out the patience part. The fruit of the spirit say 'patience' or rather 'long-suffering'. Read this part of an article I took from http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/217740/the_hardest_fruit_of_the_spirit.html


The Bible says to pray for your enemies, that also a kind word is like heaping hot coals on their head. What am I saying? You say that your wife is doing you wrong by withholding herself to you sexually so you believe you have the right to reject her though that's not what the Bible says.

Marriage (ESPECIALLY for a Christian) is supposed to be our perfect picture of how God loves the Church. We love each other UNCONDITIONALLY as God loves us also. If we say, "Well I'll just get someone else to marry and she'll give me what I want", then what's keeping God from saying, "Well I'll just get a new human race to love me and they'll praise me and love me like they should"?
The command not to divorce (exception of adultery) was God's promise never to divorce us.

ADDITION: I know a lot of people like to use this argument "I feel it's OK in my heart".

Jeremiah 17:9 says:



ADDITION #2: I'd also to add that the link you provided gives that verse, yet I want to use the word that is more closely interpreted from the original hebrew/greek texts instead of saying '[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]marital unfaithfulness', [/FONT]the amplified Bible puts it as[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] '[/FONT]unchastity' meaning


which really doesn't appear to have anything to do with sex being withheld.

Bravo! I especially like Jeremiah 17:9 in reference to people thinking divorce is ok if they feel it is.

 

[rppearso]

Before answering I want to make sure I have what your asking clear.
You're asking that if I think it's OK to have a contract demanding from both parties in the marriage to give themselves in the manner the other desires? Because I know that Biblically the ONLY means of divorce is adultery. That is, having sex outside of marriage and/or lusting after another woman/man that is not your spouse (Adultery in the heart Matt. 5:28). I don't think a contract like that is Biblical at all.

If that's how you're asking, then I think I could only answer in one way. Love.

1 Cor. 13:4-5
Taking from what I posted there, I should think that no matter what anyone does, or withholds from you, you should love them nonetheless.

I also would like to point out the patience part. The fruit of the spirit say 'patience' or rather 'long-suffering'. Read this part of an article I took from http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/217740/the_hardest_fruit_of_the_spirit.html


The Bible says to pray for your enemies, that also a kind word is like heaping hot coals on their head. What am I saying? You say that your wife is doing you wrong by withholding herself to you sexually so you believe you have the right to reject her though that's not what the Bible says.

Marriage (ESPECIALLY for a Christian) is supposed to be our perfect picture of how God loves the Church. We love each other UNCONDITIONALLY as God loves us also. If we say, "Well I'll just get someone else to marry and she'll give me what I want", then what's keeping God from saying, "Well I'll just get a new human race to love me and they'll praise me and love me like they should"?
The command not to divorce (exception of adultery) was God's promise never to divorce us.

ADDITION: I know a lot of people like to use this argument "I feel it's OK in my heart".

Jeremiah 17:9 says:



ADDITION #2: I'd also to add that the link you provided gives that verse, yet I want to use the word that is more closely interpreted from the original hebrew/greek texts instead of saying '[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]marital unfaithfulness', [/FONT]the amplified Bible puts it as[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] '[/FONT]unchastity' meaning


which really doesn't appear to have anything to do with sex being withheld.

It sounds like you dident read the article, adultry is not the only reason for divorce.

 

[BrotherAtArms]

It sounds like you dident read the article, adultry is not the only reason for divorce.

I did read the article, and no I do not agree that sexual neglect is grounds for divorce. I will disagree with that all day long. The Bible never says it is. It did not say, "If you do not fulfill your marital duty to your spouse, he/she may divorce you." It does say however, "[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband."

[/FONT]So when I read that verse, it only says to you (assuming you're male) that you fulfill your marital duty to your wife. It never said, "But if she doesn't, then get you another wife." You show love, don't show regret, nor get revenge. Your responsibility is to love her and take care of her, not love her until she starts neglecting you. Such is the life of a Christian, you show love, and when you're shown hate or neglect, you just keep on loving and let your light so shine.
Love love love.

Revenge, or vengeance ONLY belongs to God, and God alone. He'll deal with the spouse that isn't fulfilling their marital duty, you keep doing what you're supposed to.

P.s. If you read my ADDITION #2 then you would see clearly that I did read the article and that I did research in the Bible itself as apposed to a website article.

 

[rppearso]

I did read the article, and no I do not agree that sexual neglect is grounds for divorce. I will disagree with that all day long. The Bible never says it is. It did not say, "If you do not fulfill your marital duty to your spouse, he/she may divorce you." It does say however, "[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband." [/FONT]

So when I read that verse, it only says to you (assuming you're male) that you fulfill your marital duty to your wife. It never said, "But if she doesn't, then get you another wife." You show love, don't show regret, nor get revenge. Your responsibility is to love her and take care of her, not love her until she starts neglecting you. Such is the life of a Christian, you show love, and when you're shown hate or neglect, you just keep on loving and let your light so shine.
Love love love.

Revenge, or vengeance ONLY belongs to God, and God alone. He'll deal with the spouse that isn't fulfilling their marital duty, you keep doing what you're supposed to.

P.s. If you read my ADDITION #2 then you would see clearly that I did read the article and that I did research in the Bible itself as apposed to a website article.

I disagree with your take on this, you are saying that a spouse should tolerate abuse in marriage, thats ok if that is your opinion but you better make sure you are consistant, if a husband beats his wife she should stay is what you are saying because sexual neglect is abuse. We shall see how consistant you are. In reality the 2 are unequally yolked as believer/unbeliver and clearly the abuse by one indicates they are not ok dwelling with you.

 

[BrotherAtArms]

Well put Tropical Wilds.

Rppearso, I stand by what I have said. Divorce is wrong unless one or the other has committed adultery. I have read the Bible's teachings on it and I will stand by it 100%.

Now here is a true story about 2 of my grandmothers.
One of my grandmothers really was physically abused by her husband, she left him, BUT NEVER DIVORCED HIM NOR GOT INVOLVED WITH ANOTHER MAN. I believe she was right for doing this. Show me a verse where this is wrong.

My other grandmother's husband was a drunk and mistreated her. However she never left him, she merely stayed with him and continued loving him because he was her husband. And when my mother was getting married she told her, "No matter what he becomes, love him."

There's my consistency... whatever that really means to you, but I hope that over me you will read the Bible and take the scriptures for what they truly mean.

I'm sorry you go through sexual neglect, I really am. I go through it too, but I don't need sex to love my wife. I married her for her life long friendship and dependency. The sex is a great thing, but I can love my wife without it, and if I never got to have sex again, I'd be fine with her, because my wife is not a sex toy, she's my best friend.

From what I have gathered so far, you read the verse that says that husbands and wives are to be for each other, but YOU ARE ADDING what you wish it said. It doesn't say anything about sexual neglect, not once. Abuse does not mean neglect. If your wife, for spiritual reasons, devoted herself to abstinence, would you love and support her, or divorce her? Where's the love on your part? Why are you making her out to be the bad guy when your the one not respecting her body, her thoughts, her feelings? If you're a Christian you are supposed to "love your neighbor as yourself". And I highly doubt that you would want your wife divorcing you or disrespecting that you don't want sex. Let go of your selfishness and start acting like Christ. "Christian" - Like Christ!

ADDITION:

you are saying that a spouse should tolerate abuse in marriage

Everyday people who are Christians sin against God. We are considered His bride. And yet every time His people hurt Him, when they repent, He forgives them, He doesn't ever leave us nor forsake us. He loves us without cause, He just loves us, and takes us back every time. Jesus asked the Father to forgive the very people who were persecuting Him and killing Him. And you want to complain about sexual neglect in a false word of 'abuse'? Walk in Jesus' shoes and then we'll talk about abuse.

 

[rita727]

It is definitely fornicating...

1 Cor. 7 says this:


1Co 7:2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

1Co 7:8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I.
1Co 7:9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

Agreed.

 

[rppearso]

Well put Tropical Wilds.

Rppearso, I stand by what I have said. Divorce is wrong unless one or the other has committed adultery. I have read the Bible's teachings on it and I will stand by it 100%.

Now here is a true story about 2 of my grandmothers.
One of my grandmothers really was physically abused by her husband, she left him, BUT NEVER DIVORCED HIM NOR GOT INVOLVED WITH ANOTHER MAN. I believe she was right for doing this. Show me a verse where this is wrong.

My other grandmother's husband was a drunk and mistreated her. However she never left him, she merely stayed with him and continued loving him because he was her husband. And when my mother was getting married she told her, "No matter what he becomes, love him."

There's my consistency... whatever that really means to you, but I hope that over me you will read the Bible and take the scriptures for what they truly mean.

I'm sorry you go through sexual neglect, I really am. I go through it too, but I don't need sex to love my wife. I married her for her life long friendship and dependency. The sex is a great thing, but I can love my wife without it, and if I never got to have sex again, I'd be fine with her, because my wife is not a sex toy, she's my best friend.

From what I have gathered so far, you read the verse that says that husbands and wives are to be for each other, but YOU ARE ADDING what you wish it said. It doesn't say anything about sexual neglect, not once. Abuse does not mean neglect. If your wife, for spiritual reasons, devoted herself to abstinence, would you love and support her, or divorce her? Where's the love on your part? Why are you making her out to be the bad guy when your the one not respecting her body, her thoughts, her feelings? If you're a Christian you are supposed to "love your neighbor as yourself". And I highly doubt that you would want your wife divorcing you or disrespecting that you don't want sex. Let go of your selfishness and start acting like Christ. "Christian" - Like Christ!

ADDITION:


Everyday people who are Christians sin against God. We are considered His bride. And yet every time His people hurt Him, when they repent, He forgives them, He doesn't ever leave us nor forsake us. He loves us without cause, He just loves us, and takes us back every time. Jesus asked the Father to forgive the very people who were persecuting Him and killing Him. And you want to complain about sexual neglect in a false word of 'abuse'? Walk in Jesus' shoes and then we'll talk about abuse.

At least you are consistant, incorrect but consistant, you continue to harp that adultry is the only way for divorce which is incorrect, I sincerly hope you do not preach YOUR opinion to other people who are going through this issue. At this point for me this is more a hypothetical question, sexual issues almost caused divorce we are doing much better now but its not because I cut my balls off. I think members like you in a church do people a great disservice of course the people going through the problem are accountable to read there own bible on there issues to debunk your crappy advice but never the less you are doing a disservice. I had a guy give my wife and I advice that we should not engage in oral sex, I about snapped, we have since forgiven each other but he could not have given worse advice (my wife and I enjoy oral sex) but if his advice swayed her opinion for some reason it would probably have finalized the divorce. If you stand on your pulpet and preach down to people and dont hold the abusing spouse accountable (ie validating the other spouce to divorce) your going to have problems in your church. You have to preach from what the bible say (every thing it says). The bible does not require you to be a door mat, if thats your personal opinion fine but dont preach it as gospel.

 

[rppearso]

Not having sex isn't nearly the same as a spouse beating their spouse. That is positively disgusting to say, and horribly insulting.

I've yet to hear of men or women dying from sexual neglect. However, thousands of men and women have been hospitalized, handicapped, or killed as the result of being beaten by an abusive partner.

You might as well be whining about how your papercut is just as traumatic as the soldier who lost his arm in combat.



So for a woman to be a good Christian wife, she must have sex with her husband whenever he demands it? And if she doesn't, she's not a true Christian?

This has to be a joke. Any moment, Ashton Kutcher is going to jump out and the look on my face right now will be broadcast across America on "Punkd".

Yes that is exactly what im saying, if you acted like that I would say you are not a true christian woman, sexual refusal to a high labido male is a big deal equivalent to emotional or physical abuse. I like how you put it in a negitive light though and used the word "demands", if you think physical abuse is to strong fill it in with emotional abuse. If you dident want to have sex why did you get married, so you can make some guy miserable and have a crappy life, that is not at all what God intends.

 

[BrotherAtArms]

At least you are consistant, incorrect but consistant, you continue to harp that adultry is the only way for divorce which is incorrect, I sincerly hope you do not preach YOUR opinion to other people who are going through this issue. At this point for me this is more a hypothetical question, sexual issues almost caused divorce we are doing much better now but its not because I cut my balls off. I think members like you in a church do people a great disservice of course the people going through the problem are accountable to read there own bible on there issues to debunk your crappy advice but never the less you are doing a disservice. I had a guy give my wife and I advice that we should not engage in oral sex, I about snapped, we have since forgiven each other but he could not have given worse advice (my wife and I enjoy oral sex) but if his advice swayed her opinion for some reason it would probably have finalized the divorce. If you stand on your pulpet and preach down to people and dont hold the abusing spouse accountable (ie validating the other spouce to divorce) your going to have problems in your church. You have to preach from what the bible say (every thing it says). The bible does not require you to be a door mat, if thats your personal opinion fine but dont preach it as gospel.

You haven't given me the first verse YET. I have shown you scripturally, and have kept as close to the original Greek and Hebrew texts as possible and you're saying I have bad advice? Where you argue based on your own mentality of the situation.

Don't forget I showed you what Jesus said. Matthew 19:3-9

And Pharisees came to Him and put Him to the test by asking, Is it lawful and right to dismiss and repudiate and divorce one's wife for any and every cause? 4He replied, Have you never read that He Who made them from the beginning made them male and female,
5And said, For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and shall be united firmly (joined inseparably) to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh?
6So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder (separate).
7They said to Him, Why then did Moses command [us] to give a certificate of divorce and thus to dismiss and repudiate a wife?
8He said to them, Because of the hardness (stubbornness and perversity) of your hearts Moses permitted you to dismiss and repudiate and divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been so [ordained].
9I say to you: whoever dismisses (repudiates, divorces) his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

I'm using the scriptures, you think this is wrong of me? Show me scripture that supports your desires. Do you remember what I told you the definition of unchastity was? Has nothing to do what you are saying is a reasonable cause for divorce. None.

You said to Tropical Wilds:

Yes that is exactly what im saying, if you acted like that I would say you are not a true christian woman, sexual refusal to a high labido male is a big deal equivalent to emotional or physical abuse. I like how you put it in a negitive light though and used the word "demands", if you think physical abuse is to strong fill it in with emotional abuse. If you dident want to have sex why did you get married, so you can make some guy miserable and have a crappy life, that is not at all what God intends.

Sex is not marriage. It's a part of it, but it is not marriage. Ever consider that many couples just marry for the spiritual bond of a man and woman, and the life long companionship of the other?
Women are not slaves to us men. They never were. They are as free willed and free to choose as we are. You want to say they the only reason you married was to have sex, then your marriage was doomed from the start. Unless of course her intentions were to use you the same way, but I don't see that as a love marriage, I see it as a lust marriage.
Be careful how you talk on here, people may start thinking you're nothing more than a sex addict. I'm starting to think it myself. If that's the case then talking to you was a mistake from the beginning...

But anyways, if you have scripture to back up what you are trying to prove, then in no way is the Bible I'm reading wrong. I don't say anything that is out of line with the Bible I so dearly live by, and teach at my church every week. That's why in every post I try my best to bring in scripture. And believe me, I've studied this subject more times than many men have even considered it.

ADDITION: I question your motives here. I don't know why you choose to argue this, whether it's for the sake of arguing or that you're looking for someone to finally agree with you... but I would like to add this verse in the mix.
Paul said, "If you do marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. But those who marry will face many troubles in this life, and I want to spare you this" (1 Corinthians 7:28).

You were warned from the start, there will be troubles. It's better NOT to marry according to Jesus and Paul. But because you have no self control, you should marry. Maybe you acknowledged this, I don't know. Either way, I still have not seen any Biblical references supporting your bashing of the scriptures I've presented so far.

 

[DanC922]

You haven't given me the first verse YET. I have shown you scripturally, and have kept as close to the original Greek and Hebrew texts as possible and you're saying I have bad advice? Where you argue based on your own mentality of the situation.

Don't forget I showed you what Jesus said. Matthew 19:3-9

I'm using the scriptures, you think this is wrong of me? Show me scripture that supports your desires.

You said to Tropical Wilds:
Sex is not marriage. It's a part of it, but it is not marriage. Ever consider that many couples just marry for the spiritual bond of a man and woman, and the life long companionship of the other?
Women are not slaves to us men. They never were. They are as free willed and free to choose as we are. You want to say they the only reason you married was to have sex, then your marriage was doomed from the start. Unless of course her intentions were to use you the same way, but I don't see that as a love marriage, I see it as a lust marriage.
Be careful how you talk on here, people may start thinking you're nothing more than a sex addict. I'm starting to think it myself. If that's the case then talking to you was a mistake from the beginning...

But anyways, if you have scripture to back up what you are trying to prove, then in no way is the Bible I'm reading wrong. I don't say anything that is out of line with the Bible I so dearly live by, and teach at my church every week. That's why in every post I try my best to bring in scripture. And believe me, I've studied this subject more times than many men have even considered it.

ADDITION: I question your motives here. I don't know why you choose to argue this, whether it's for the sake of arguing or that you're looking for someone to finally agree with you... but I would like to add this verse in the mix.
Paul said, "If you do marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. But those who marry will face many troubles in this life, and I want to spare you this" (1 Corinthians 7:28).

You were warned from the start, there will be troubles. It's better NOT to marry according to Jesus and Paul. But because you have no self control, you should marry. Maybe you acknowledged this, I don't know. Either way, I still have not seen any Biblical references supporting your bashing of the scriptures I've presented so far.

Your posts have been 100% correct. It makes me happy to see someone who holds so firmly to scripture.

It seems rppearso only wants his opinion to be true though, and not the truth of God's Word. You've presented the undeniable truth from God's Word, and it hasn't changed his mind, so it's probably just best to let it go. Arguing and debating the same points back and forth won't accomplish anything except making two brothers angry at each other.

 

[BrotherAtArms]

Your posts have been 100% correct. It makes me happy to see someone who holds so firmly to scripture.

It seems rppearso only wants his opinion to be true though, and not the truth of God's Word. You've presented the undeniable truth from God's Word, and it hasn't changed his mind, so it's probably just best to let it go. Arguing and debating the same points back and forth won't accomplish anything except making two brothers angry at each other.

You're right. I have a bad habit at times to keep going with stuff like this... I'll keep to your advice and end it here. Thank you

 

[rppearso]

You haven't given me the first verse YET. I have shown you scripturally, and have kept as close to the original Greek and Hebrew texts as possible and you're saying I have bad advice? Where you argue based on your own mentality of the situation.

Don't forget I showed you what Jesus said. Matthew 19:3-9

I'm using the scriptures, you think this is wrong of me? Show me scripture that supports your desires. Do you remember what I told you the definition of unchastity was? Has nothing to do what you are saying is a reasonable cause for divorce. None.

You said to Tropical Wilds:
Sex is not marriage. It's a part of it, but it is not marriage. Ever consider that many couples just marry for the spiritual bond of a man and woman, and the life long companionship of the other?
Women are not slaves to us men. They never were. They are as free willed and free to choose as we are. You want to say they the only reason you married was to have sex, then your marriage was doomed from the start. Unless of course her intentions were to use you the same way, but I don't see that as a love marriage, I see it as a lust marriage.
Be careful how you talk on here, people may start thinking you're nothing more than a sex addict. I'm starting to think it myself. If that's the case then talking to you was a mistake from the beginning...

But anyways, if you have scripture to back up what you are trying to prove, then in no way is the Bible I'm reading wrong. I don't say anything that is out of line with the Bible I so dearly live by, and teach at my church every week. That's why in every post I try my best to bring in scripture. And believe me, I've studied this subject more times than many men have even considered it.

ADDITION: I question your motives here. I don't know why you choose to argue this, whether it's for the sake of arguing or that you're looking for someone to finally agree with you... but I would like to add this verse in the mix.
Paul said, "If you do marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. But those who marry will face many troubles in this life, and I want to spare you this" (1 Corinthians 7:28).

You were warned from the start, there will be troubles. It's better NOT to marry according to Jesus and Paul. But because you have no self control, you should marry. Maybe you acknowledged this, I don't know. Either way, I still have not seen any Biblical references supporting your bashing of the scriptures I've presented so far.

I will provide the references I think that is only proper when I get to my bible. Im not bashing anything I just think you give bad advice and instruct men to tolerate bad behavior on the part of there wives or in some cases vise versa. She should be talked to by one then by 2 then by the church if she still chooses to refuse her husband she should be treated as a pagan (I can provide that reference as well). I agree divorce is not justified for single instances or some issue that lasts a day, its when refusal becomes a regular habit. God never intended us to live in suffering (will provide reference), that does not mean events wont occure (my mechanic dident get my truck back for 1.5 months, that was a pain, but thats life) but but you should not be living in it day in and day out. You need to be very careful the advice you give out especially enabling a womans poor behavior and making a man suffer in his marriage for years because of your skewed opinion, you are messing with peoples whole lives and you will be held accountable for it. This is my testimony because I went through these issues in my marriage so I feel very strongly when you give advice like that because I found it to be false and you are messing with peoples lives.

 

[BrotherAtArms]

I will provide the references I think that is only proper when I get to my bible. Im not bashing anything I just think you give bad advice and instruct men to tolerate bad behavior on the part of there wives or in some cases vise versa. She should be talked to by one then by 2 then by the church if she still chooses to refuse her husband she should be treated as a pagan (I can provide that reference as well). I agree divorce is not justified for single instances or some issue that lasts a day, its when refusal becomes a regular habit. God never intended us to live in suffering (will provide reference), that does not mean events wont occure (my mechanic dident get my truck back for 1.5 months, that was a pain, but thats life) but but you should not be living in it day in and day out. You need to be very careful the advice you give out especially enabling a womans poor behavior and making a man suffer in his marriage for years because of your skewed opinion, you are messing with peoples whole lives and you will be held accountable for it. This is my testimony because I went through these issues in my marriage so I feel very strongly when you give advice like that because I found it to be false and you are messing with peoples lives.

Mathew 5:38-48

38You have heard that it was said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.
39But I say to you, Do not resist the evil man [who injures you]; but if anyone strikes you on the right jaw or cheek, turn to him the other one too.
40And if anyone wants to sue you and take your undershirt (tunic), let him have your coat also.
41And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two [miles].
42Give to him who keeps on begging from you, and do not turn away from him who would borrow [at interest] from you.
43You have heard that it was said, You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy;
44But I tell you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
45To show that you are the children of your Father Who is in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the wicked and on the good, and makes the rain fall upon the upright and the wrongdoers [alike].
46For if you love those who love you, what reward can you have? Do not even the tax collectors do that?
47And if you greet only your brethren, what more than others are you doing? Do not even the Gentiles (the heathen) do that?
48You, therefore, must be perfect [growing into complete maturity of godliness in mind and character, having reached the proper height of virtue and integrity], as your heavenly Father is perfect.

And so now you want to say 'I' give bad advice? All that came from the Bible.

You have in lack of better words gone off the deep end. The Bible gives this picture that if we can't love our wives for who they are, how can we love our Heavenly Father who we can't even see? Our God is said to give and take away. Will you leave Him because He keeps from you certain things? Just keep telling me I give bad advice, but hopefully you'll soon realize that I'm saying nothing out of line with the Bible, where you have only said that you will give scriptures later instead of now.
Just because you can't live without certain things doesn't mean that Biblical advice is wrong, it just means you disagree with it. If a man suffers in his marriage, then maybe he needs to get some alone time with God instead of seeking to subdue his wife...
Not that it really matters to you, but have you noticed yet that no one agrees with you at all? It's because you're wrong, and you're starting to become very intolerable.

Tropical Wilds... amen again

ADDITION: I just realized that you're getting your idea of treating her like a pagan from Matthew 18. Your fault however is that you're still under the muse that a woman like what you're describing, someone who doesn't like sex or is made uncomfortable by it, is such a person... Your biggest fault in this is that you just can't show the hardest fruit of the spirit, and that is long suffering. Her fault in your opinion seems to be that God made her to not enjoy sex as much as you.
Anyways, keep arguing with the Bible like you are and we get to treat you like a pagan

 

[rppearso]

Mathew 5:38-48
And so now you want to say 'I' give bad advice? All that came from the Bible.

You have in lack of better words gone off the deep end. The Bible gives this picture that if we can't love our wives for who they are, how can we love our Heavenly Father who we can't even see? Our God is said to give and take away. Will you leave Him because He keeps from you certain things? Just keep telling me I give bad advice, but hopefully you'll soon realize that I'm saying nothing out of line with the Bible, where you have only said that you will give scriptures later instead of now.
Just because you can't live without certain things doesn't mean that Biblical advice is wrong, it just means you disagree with it. If a man suffers in his marriage, then maybe he needs to get some alone time with God instead of seeking to subdue his wife...
Not that it really matters to you, but have you noticed yet that no one agrees with you at all? It's because you're wrong, and you're starting to become very intolerable.

Tropical Wilds... amen again

ADDITION: I just realized that you're getting your idea of treating her like a pagan from Matthew 18. Your fault however is that you're still under the muse that a woman like what you're describing, someone who doesn't like sex or is made uncomfortable by it, is such a person... Your biggest fault in this is that you just can't show the hardest fruit of the spirit, and that is long suffering. Her fault in your opinion seems to be that God made her to not enjoy sex as much as you.
Anyways, keep arguing with the Bible like you are and we get to treat you like a pagan

So your saying if someone refuses to change and do what is right they should not be treated as a pagan? If you burn with passion and are already married, then what? Also I dont have these problems in my marriage anymore (there are still things to work through) but my issue is with people like you who insist on staying in such situations or who dont hold the refusing spouse accountable, I was fortunate to have an elder couple in the church that did just that but there are so many that think like you and I was not to happy about it. You have to be very careful with long suffering, that does not mean you are to be a door mat like you portray, if you read the bible with no common sense you are heading for trouble. I have sort of take this topic on as my personal ministry because this effects so many peoples marriages and its wrong. You can lash out at me all you want but like I said before you will be held accountable. The scriptures you gave me were not applicable to the discussion nor did they lead to any logical conclusion other than generalities. If you let people walk all over you you are a fool.

 

[BrotherAtArms]

OK, I see where this conversation went south... You somehow mistook something I said as if I was saying to 'stay in your suffering situation. Or as you put it:

my issue is with people like you who insist on staying in such situations

Because I never ever said that. I did say that you should deal with it, you can't change people, but I never said stay there. I never even addressed how long to put up with it or anything of the like.
I will say this though, you should, absolutely, talk with your spouse, no argument there. If it is a problem for you, absolutely let her/him know. But you have taken it to such a pathetic extreme of treating her like a pagan, which is absolutely bazaar in this situation.
Your first sentence of your last post should be ignored, seeing as how I have already said I agree with the Bible 100%, and the Bible says to do that, but in the case you're talking about, it's no where near worthy of being related.

And again, I never portrayed that we are door mats. A person can defend themselves, but you are over spiritualizing your carnal desires. Paul said that he was convinced that the sufferings of this present life are nothing compared to the glory that is to be revealed in us. It's this idea that a true Christian just doesn't worry about this kind of stuff, because God promised us that He is with us, what more do you need? What else really matters? Nothing, especially to try to twists the scriptures as much as you have (or haven't, seeing as I haven't seen any at all from you.)

We've both apparently lashed out at each other, it's not been one sided, it's been both of us. I can see clearly that we're both in ministry, which is great, because it's a great thing to be involved in. I just wouldn't teach people that it's OK to divorce for any reason other than adultery... that's just unbiblical. And further reading of the Bible proves that Christians do suffer, and humility is a great virtue that less of us have. We are to consider others greater than ourselves, or more important than us. If a person wants to cuss me out, I'll just take it, I won't argue back, that's stupid. If someone tries to mug me, shoot, I will defend myself, that's common sense. But in a situation where you have a spouse that doesn't enjoy sex, or it makes her uncomfortable, you still have to love her. Eventually, I believe that God will work with the both of you and it will turn out for the better, because again, the scriptures tell us that all things work out for the good of those who love Him. It's not worrying about, or, God forbid, considering divorce. Consider women who have been circumcised, they can't enjoy sex at all, but I'm sure some desire marriage. We can't try to over spiritualize something like this and try to get our way by throwing scriptures in her face that really don't prove anything. God gave her free will and choice, and if my wife, or your wife has an issue with sex, then we as Christian men of God must have patience, endurance, and have the same, if not more respect for her than for ourselves.

Again, I stand very strongly to what the Bible has taught me, not mortal man, even if that man is an elder, but if your case has been settled in a Biblical manner, then great!

 

[eatenbylocusts]

So your saying if someone refuses to change and do what is right they should not be treated as a pagan? If you burn with passion and are already married, then what? Also I dont have these problems in my marriage anymore (there are still things to work through) but my issue is with people like you who insist on staying in such situations or who dont hold the refusing spouse accountable, I was fortunate to have an elder couple in the church that did just that but there are so many that think like you and I was not to happy about it. You have to be very careful with long suffering, that does not mean you are to be a door mat like you portray, if you read the bible with no common sense you are heading for trouble. I have sort of take this topic on as my personal ministry because this effects so many peoples marriages and its wrong. You can lash out at me all you want but like I said before you will be held accountable. The scriptures you gave me were not applicable to the discussion nor did they lead to any logical conclusion other than generalities. If you let people walk all over you you are a fool.

Something that disturbs me is it seems like you think this is a cut and dry issue of "just submit and have sex", instead of finding out why the spouse doesn't want to. Sex where only one person is getting enjoyment out of it seems unhealthy and I would hope less satisfying to the other person. For women emotionally, simply not feeling loved or respected is a major turn-off. And that's just one of many possibilities for not wanting sex.