If you were being robbed at gunpoint...

[nobdysfool]

It appears that someone would rather waste their time trying any and all means of making Calvinists look bad, rather than engage in an actual conversation, where he may discover that at least some Calvinists actually know a thing or two about what they are speaking about. Reducing prayer to just taking our needs before God shows a very shallow understanding of prayer. I tried to expand upon it, and have been rebuffed because he didn't like the way I spoke to him, when all I was doing was showing that he criticized me without warrant. He can deal it out (criticism) but apparently cannot take it (being criticized).

No logical fallacies were employed in the above statement...

 

[South Bound]

If you were being robbed at gunpoint, would you pray something along these lines?

"Lord, please don't let that man kill me. Let me live!!"

I know I would.

Some theologies out there deny that God is in control of human actions and choices. If that is true, then why would you pray for God to intervene and essentially control the action of the robber/shooter?

So, which theology is consistent with a prayer asking God to do something? A theology that says God is in control of humans, or a theology which says God does not control human actions?

If God is not sovereign in the decisions and actions of other people as they affect us, then there is a whole major area of our lives where we cannot trust God; where we are left... to fend for ourselves. - Jerry Bridges

This same concept (praying for God to do something) goes beyond merely asking God to prevent a shooter from killing you. It can be applied to other things too, such as praying for the lost. If God can't do anything to affect the lost person (it's totally up to them and their free will), why are you praying for "Lost loved ones"? What can God do to answer your prayer? What can He do about it? Why do churches have prayer lists, including a category such as "Salvation". What can God do to affect the person's salvation? Isn't up to the person, not God?

How about praying for safe travel? If you are praying for safe travel, aren't you asking God to not let other people crash into you? You are asking God to control them.

As you can see, God being in control of human actions and choices is the only way that prayer makes any sense at all!

To be honest, prayer would not be my first instinct.

My first instinct would be to determine how far away he is, what is in his line of fire to my right and my left, and whether or not I can unholster my own weapon before he can shoot. If not, then how far away he is and whether or not I can separate him from his weapon and incapacitate him.

I'm no hero, but I have a close friend who was murdered in a carjacking and it's been my observation that when the gun comes out, it isn't just for show.

 

[ihavefoundgod951]

I've been robbed at gun point, when I was about 14 years old.
I was on the bus on my way home from the town centre, my friend who I was with was abit older then me he was 21, we was sat on separate seats, this guy came and sat next to my friend and told him to hand over his money, my friend said no I havent got any, so he said give me your credit cards, my friend said I havent got any, then he asked him if he new of any drug dealers, again my friend said no, then he said to my friend you and I we are getting off the bus, my friend said no we are not, he said we are getting of the bus, my friend refused. So the guy turned around to me and said what have you got in your bag, I said music tapes, I was young and afraid I don't if his gun was real but I didnt argue with him I gave him my brand new just been bought music tapes, I was gutted because my family was poor, wasn't often I had money to buy myself stuff.
But hey I lived to fight another day.
If was abit older when I was say 17 I wouldnt of hadn't my belongings over because that's the kind of attitude I had at that age.

This wasn't the first time I had mugged, when I was 11 years old I had a really nice pair of Nike air Jordan trainers brand new, I had got them for Christmas, I was walking home from school, these two glue sniffers came up to me, they had bags of glue in there hands, they where off there heads on glue, I was only 11 they must of been around 18 years old, one of the them said give me your trainers, so I did.
Next day I had to go to school in my brother's hand me downs (for the next 6 months :-( )

 

[stenerson]

God can and does influence, restrain and change wills all the time. If He didn't humanity would have destroyed itself long ago.
But concerning salvation, the dispensing of mercy the Bible is clear that a change of will from God is the only hope for any.

 

[OzSpen]

And so I mention it in speculation, and suddenly I'm dragging a red herring across the trail? C'mon, Oz, don't insult my intelligence! Given the tone of many threads here, and all the attacks on Calvinism and Calvinists, it was a perfectly reasonable inference.

But it apparently was used by you to avoid responding to my expanded explanation brought about by your wanting to take me to task as though I didn't know what I was talking about.

Rather than discuss and come to understand what I was talking about, you decided that 'schooling' a Calvinist was necessary. You were wrong, and have been shown to be wrong, and STILL you will not address what I said, both originally (other than to falsely accuse, jumping to a wrong conclusion), or the expanded and detailed explanation I provided afterward.

Why is that, Oz? What I said originally did not conflict with what you said, and what you said did not conflict with what I said, at all. But it was turned into an 'either/or' situation, when it was really a 'both/and' situation.

Prayer is not solely and only about getting things from God, or getting His help. Prayer is a dialogue between God and man, or it should be. It goes far beyond wants, needs and desires. It is a central part of our relationship with God.

Would you disagree?

Nastiness towards me by you will not get any further response on this topic.

Bye

 

[EmSw]

The answer is yes, God can without our permission have mercy on us, grant us repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, change our hearts of stone into living heart of flesh. You want to define that as dictatorial? So be it.

According to your belief, God can do all these things for a person, and still assign them to hell. The person has no choice as to whether they will be saved or not, remember?

If God has mercy, grants repentance, and changes a heart, this is no sign of salvation. God can do what He wants, therefore, he can lead one down the right path, and in the end, still send them to hell.

According to your belief, a person cannot know if they are saved or not, until death. They can have no assurance of salvation, since it is all in God's hand, and He can do with a person as He wants, when He wants, and how He wants.

A person can put himself into the position of salvation by thinking God has regenerated him, justified him, and sanctified him. But self-election will come to nought.

If God chooses to let you think you are saved, you have no say in the matter. You will follow along, not knowing what He has planned for you. And what will be one's reply when they find themselves in hell, while thinking all along they were the elect?

Remember, there is nothing you can do to assure your salvation, not even thinking God has called and elected you will work.

 

[stenerson]

According to your belief, God can do all these things for a person, and still assign them to hell. The person has no choice as to whether they will be saved or not, remember?

I'm not following you? God can do what things?

If God has mercy, grants repentance, and changes a heart, this is no sign of salvation. God can do what He wants, therefore, he can lead one down the right path, and in the end, still send them to hell.

I don't know where you are getting that from. I believe the opposite. God does all those things in order to give His elect sheep a sure salvation and to keep them from the judgement/condemnation.

According to your belief, a person cannot know if they are saved or not, until death. They can have no assurance of salvation, since it is all in God's hand, and He can do with a person as He wants, when He wants, and how He wants.

I believe the opposite. Those granted repentance and faith by God have confidence concerning their eternal destination. This faith and confidence is based on the promises and work of the Triune God.

A person can put himself into the position of salvation by thinking God has regenerated him, justified him, and sanctified him. But self-election will come to nought.

Yes it's true it's possible to be self-deceived. It's possible to have confidence in one's own works of righteousness, law keeping,sacramentalism, decision making, aisle walking, card signing, sinner's prayer making while having no true faith in God, or any true love for Christ.

If God chooses to let you think you are saved, you have no say in the matter. You will follow along, not knowing what He has planned for you. And what will be one's reply when they find themselves in hell, while thinking all along they were the elect?

The reprobate is deceived by his own lusts and desires.

Remember, there is nothing you can do to assure your salvation, not even thinking God has called and elected you will work.

Sure there are things you should do with extreme urgency. You should seek God with all your heart, soul and mind. You should pray without ceasing that He grant you repentance and faith and a saving knowledge of the truth. You should turn from sin and towards the cross. You should place yourself in a Church that takes the bible seriously and teaches the pure Gospel of God's saving grace and listen urgently.
If you seek God with all your heart He has elected you. It's impossible that He would reject you since He promised He would not.
There isn't a single person that truly wants God and His salvation that will miss out on it.
If you believe Calvinist believe God rejects sincere seekers you have misunderstood Calvinism.

 

[LadyOfMystery]

Mod Hat ON

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[bleitzel]

Back to the OP:

If you were being robbed at gunpoint, would you pray something along these lines?

"Lord, please don't let that man kill me. Let me live!!"

I know I would.

Some theologies out there deny that God is in control of human actions and choices. If that is true, then why would you pray for God to intervene and essentially control the action of the robber/shooter?

So, which theology is consistent with a prayer asking God to do something? A theology that says God is in control of humans, or a theology which says God does not control human actions?

Skala, why would you pray for God to stop the robber? Have you examined your motives? Are you unsure of your election? Do you not know where your eternal security lies? Are you not looking forward to eternal life with God and that is why you are scared to die? What I have written is not intended to flame, it is only intended as an example of how we are ALL wrong in our thinking. I TOO would have immediately, instinctively prayed for safety as you suggested above in the OP but we are both wrong!

Look at what Jesus said when he told us how to pray: Father, not my will be done but yours. That would mean, Father God, if you wish this man to rob me so be it, if you wish him to kill me so be it, I would rather not have it done, but your will done not mine. Also, Jesus said turn the other cheek. If the robber wanted your money, you could have offered him your credit cards also... Again not meant to flame as I would not have thought to do these things either, I am just pointing out how much work we all have to do, how imperfect we all are regardless of our theology.

If God is not sovereign in the decisions and actions of other people as they affect us, then there is a whole major area of our lives where we cannot trust God; where we are left... to fend for ourselves. - Jerry Bridges

I don't know who Jerry Bridges is but if this quote is a testimony to what he believes about God's sovereignty then he's not thinking it through very far. Sovereignty doesn't mean that God has to do all things. And if something happens that God doesn't want to happen it doesn't mean he's less of a God or somehow un-sovereign. An all-sovereign God can have the power to control all human actions and decisions, and decide to let them make some of their own decisions! Otherwise, God wouldn't be all-powerful if he was forced to do all things...

This same concept (praying for God to do something) goes beyond merely asking God to prevent a shooter from killing you. It can be applied to other things too, such as praying for the lost. If God can't do anything to affect the lost person (it's totally up to them and their free will), why are you praying for "Lost loved ones"? What can God do to answer your prayer? What can He do about it? Why do churches have prayer lists, including a category such as "Salvation". What can God do to affect the person's salvation? Isn't up to the person, not God?

How about praying for safe travel? If you are praying for safe travel, aren't you asking God to not let other people crash into you? You are asking God to control them.

As you can see, God being in control of human actions and choices is the only way that prayer makes any sense at all!

These are bad straw men. It's not an either/or proposition, either God controls all things or he controls nothing-that's too small minded. God can have the power to allow men to decide for themselves and still affect things when and how He chooses. That's the picture we get in the Bible. God allows men to choose, holds men responsible for their actions, but still steps in and intervenes directly in some cases (but that is not to become a teaching to us that he will always step in.)

 

[OzSpen]

Back to the OP:
Skala, why would you pray for God to stop the robber? Have you examined your motives? Are you unsure of your election? Do you not know where your eternal security lies? Are you not looking forward to eternal life with God and that is why you are scared to die? What I have written is not intended to flame, it is only intended as an example of how we are ALL wrong in our thinking. I TOO would have immediately, instinctively prayed for safety as you suggested above in the OP but we are both wrong!

Look at what Jesus said when he told us how to pray: Father, not my will be done but yours. That would mean, Father God, if you wish this man to rob me so be it, if you wish him to kill me so be it, I would rather not have it done, but your will done not mine. Also, Jesus said turn the other cheek. If the robber wanted your money, you could have offered him your credit cards also... Again not meant to flame as I would not have thought to do these things either, I am just pointing out how much work we all have to do, how imperfect we all are regardless of our theology.

Bleitzel,

You have only given part of Jesus message. This is what he also said in John 14:12-14,

12 “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father. 13 Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it (ESV).
​

If the robber comes to my place, I'll be praying, in Jesus' name, for the robber to go and/or to help me deal with the situation. I won't be letting him go ahead with robbing me. I'll be calling the police, etc.



If I'm to adopt the view you promote, I'll have to say bye, bye to what Corrie ten Boom and Richard Wurmbrand did in helping the Jews during WW2.



I'm sticking with what Jesus said: 'Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do , that the Father may be glorified in the Son'. I'll pray for action to be taken to stop, catch and apprehend the robber.


Oz

 

[bleitzel]

If I'm to adopt the view you promote, I'll have to say bye, bye to what Corrie ten Boom and Richard Wurmbrand did in helping the Jews during WW2.

I'm not espousing the philosophy of inaction, I certainly would do all I could or should do to stop evil in this world. My goal was simply to point out first there are a lot of factors to it, but then move on to examining the either/or mentality and dispelling it.

 

[goofypusher837]

l




It can be applied to other things too, such as praying for the lost. If God can't do anything to affect the lost person (it's totally up to them and their free will), why are you praying for "Lost loved ones"? What can God do to answer your prayer? What can He do about it? Why do churches have prayer lists, including a category such as "Salvation". What can God do to affect the person's salvation? Isn't up to the person, not God?

As far as salvation goes, the NT states that we are elected, predestined, adopted, chosen. These verbs suggest that God does have a say in who is saved and who believes. At the same time of course, free will can always be excercised(as far as i know).