If you were being robbed at gunpoint...

[Skala]

If you were being robbed at gunpoint, would you pray something along these lines?

"Lord, please don't let that man kill me. Let me live!!"

I know I would.

Some theologies out there deny that God is in control of human actions and choices. If that is true, then why would you pray for God to intervene and essentially control the action of the robber/shooter?

So, which theology is consistent with a prayer asking God to do something? A theology that says God is in control of humans, or a theology which says God does not control human actions?

If God is not sovereign in the decisions and actions of other people as they affect us, then there is a whole major area of our lives where we cannot trust God; where we are left... to fend for ourselves. - Jerry Bridges

This same concept (praying for God to do something) goes beyond merely asking God to prevent a shooter from killing you. It can be applied to other things too, such as praying for the lost. If God can't do anything to affect the lost person (it's totally up to them and their free will), why are you praying for "Lost loved ones"? What can God do to answer your prayer? What can He do about it? Why do churches have prayer lists, including a category such as "Salvation". What can God do to affect the person's salvation? Isn't up to the person, not God?

How about praying for safe travel? If you are praying for safe travel, aren't you asking God to not let other people crash into you? You are asking God to control them.

As you can see, God being in control of human actions and choices is the only way that prayer makes any sense at all!

 

[bling]

What about praying for wisdom to know what to do and say?

What about praying for courage to cease the opportunities God presents to you?

 

[Skala]

What about praying for wisdom to know what to do and say?

What about praying for courage to cease the opportunities God presents to you?

Maybe you should start your own thread on those particular prayers?

 

[Edial]

Maybe you should start your own thread on those particular prayers?

Moving to Debate ...

 

[FreeGrace2]

If you were being robbed at gunpoint, would you pray something along these lines?

"Lord, please don't let that man kill me. Let me live!!"

I know I would.

Some theologies out there deny that God is in control of human actions and choices. If that is true, then why would you pray for God to intervene and essentially control the action of the robber/shooter?

So, which theology is consistent with a prayer asking God to do something? A theology that says God is in control of humans, or a theology which says God does not control human actions?

If God is not sovereign in the decisions and actions of other people as they affect us, then there is a whole major area of our lives where we cannot trust God; where we are left... to fend for ourselves. - Jerry Bridges

We know from 1 Jn 5:14-15 that we are to pray according to His will. That said, how do you know whether it is His will for you to continue to live? If His will was to take you home via the robber, wouldn't your prayer be AGAINST God's will?? How do you defend that?

Why wouldn't a believer rather pray for the courage, boldness and wisdom to be a witness to the robber, regardless of what the robber will do?

The OP seems to charge that there are believers who don't think that God can control human behavior. Really? Can you name anyone who holds to that extreme and incorrect view?

Kinda of a red herring.

 

[sdowney717]

We know from 1 Jn 5:14-15 that we are to pray according to His will. That said, how do you know whether it is His will for you to continue to live? If His will was to take you home via the robber, wouldn't your prayer be AGAINST God's will?? How do you defend that?

Why wouldn't a believer rather pray for the courage, boldness and wisdom to be a witness to the robber, regardless of what the robber will do?

The OP seems to charge that there are believers who don't think that God can control human behavior. Really? Can you name anyone who holds to that extreme and incorrect view?

Kinda of a red herring.

Well if we pray according to His will he hears us.

14 Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15 And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him.

Jesus tells us men should pray often and not be weary of it.

So does God ignore requests not made according to His will, maybe so.

God works all things according to the council of His will.

11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will.

God is going to work things out one way or another according to how He sees fit. God wants us to pray according to His will.
If you do not pray, well your being disobedient to what Jesus says.
If you pray knowing something is contrary to the sound words of Jesus, that is not good idea!
So pray often as long as it is not contrary to scripture, and God will not be displeased. You may not get what you want as it may be different from what God is doing. I am certain that God will direct the prayers of an honest hearted born again christian who loves God to be more in alignment with how His Son would have prayed and how God wants things to be done. That is part of being conformed to the image of His Son which God promises to do for us.

A good question is why God wants us to pray at all if God is going to work all things according to the council of His will. Part of the answer is that it is His will that you pray and pray often. Our prayers are part of working all things according to the council of His will. He made mankind to have fellowship with Himself.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

If you were being robbed at gunpoint, would you pray something along these lines?

"Lord, please don't let that man kill me. Let me live!!"

I know I would.

Some theologies out there deny that God is in control of human actions and choices. If that is true, then why would you pray for God to intervene and essentially control the action of the robber/shooter?

So, which theology is consistent with a prayer asking God to do something? A theology that says God is in control of humans, or a theology which says God does not control human actions?

If God is not sovereign in the decisions and actions of other people as they affect us, then there is a whole major area of our lives where we cannot trust God; where we are left... to fend for ourselves. - Jerry Bridges

This same concept (praying for God to do something) goes beyond merely asking God to prevent a shooter from killing you. It can be applied to other things too, such as praying for the lost. If God can't do anything to affect the lost person (it's totally up to them and their free will), why are you praying for "Lost loved ones"? What can God do to answer your prayer? What can He do about it? Why do churches have prayer lists, including a category such as "Salvation". What can God do to affect the person's salvation? Isn't up to the person, not God?

How about praying for safe travel? If you are praying for safe travel, aren't you asking God to not let other people crash into you? You are asking God to control them.

As you can see, God being in control of human actions and choices is the only way that prayer makes any sense at all!

synergists be like

 

[FreeGrace2]

Well if we pray according to His will he hears us.

Yes, that was my point regarding the OP prayer. The prayer didn't necessarily reflect God's will. It was a prayer of self centeredness.

Jesus tells us men should pray often and not be weary of it.

So does God ignore requests not made according to His will, maybe so.

God works all things according to the council of His will.

Of course. But none of which relates to the OP.

God is going to work things out one way or another according to how He sees fit. God wants us to pray according to His will.

Yes, my point as well.

If you do not pray, well your being disobedient to what Jesus says.
If you pray knowing something is contrary to the sound words of Jesus, that is not good idea!

Yes, my point.

So pray often as long as it is not contrary to scripture, and God will not be displeased. You may not get what you want as it may be different from what God is doing. I am certain that God will direct the prayers of an honest hearted born again christian who loves God to be more in alignment with how His Son would have prayed and how God wants things to be done. That is part of being conformed to the image of His Son which God promises to do for us.

This doesn't address the OP.

 

[bling]

Well if we pray according to His will he hears us.



Jesus tells us men should pray often and not be weary of it.

So does God ignore requests not made according to His will, maybe so.

God works all things according to the council of His will.



God is going to work things out one way or another according to how He sees fit. God wants us to pray according to His will.
If you do not pray, well your being disobedient to what Jesus says.
If you pray knowing something is contrary to the sound words of Jesus, that is not good idea!
So pray often as long as it is not contrary to scripture, and God will not be displeased. You may not get what you want as it may be different from what God is doing. I am certain that God will direct the prayers of an honest hearted born again christian who loves God to be more in alignment with how His Son would have prayed and how God wants things to be done. That is part of being conformed to the image of His Son which God promises to do for us.

A good question is why God wants us to pray at all if God is going to work all things according to the council of His will. Part of the answer is that it is His will that you pray and pray often. Our prayers are part of working all things according to the council of His will. He made mankind to have fellowship with Himself.

It is not always God’s will that we continue to live, so why make that pray?

Is it always God’s will that we have greater wisdom?

Is it always God’s will we know what to say and do?

Is it always God’s will that we witness to others?

So are these things what we should always pray for?

 

[AMR]

Why do you pray? Do you think you are somehow telling God something He does not already know? Or are you asking for something He has not already determined to give or not give?

Prayer is a means by which we draw nearer to God. God states that we should pray for the following reasons:

1. That the Lord God Himself should be honored through worship. (Isaiah 57:15; Jonah 2:9)
2. For our spiritual blessing, as a means for our growth in grace. (Psalms 116:1)
3. For our seeking from Him the things which we are in need. (James 4:2)

But here (reason #3 above) a difficulty to some presents itself. If God has foreordained, before the foundation of the world, everything which happens in time, what is the use of prayer? If it is true that God is sovereign, that is "of Him and through Him and to Him are all things" (Romans 11:30), then why pray?

Prayer is to acknowledge that God does know of what we are in need. Prayer is not required to inform of God with the knowledge of what we need, but is designed for us to confess to God of our sense of need. In this, as in everything, God's thoughts are not like our thoughts. God requires that His gifts should be sought after. God desires to be honored by our asking, just as He is to be thanked by us after He has bestowed His blessing upon us.

However, the question still remains, If God is sovereign, that is the Ordainer of everything that will happen, and the Regulator of all events, then isn’t prayer a profitless exercise?

One sufficient answer to these questions is that God admonishes us to pray, "Pray without ceasing" (1 Thess. 5:17). And again, "men ought always to pray" (Luke 18:1). Moreover, the Scriptures declare that "the prayer of faith shall save the sick," and "the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much" (James 5:15-16); and Christ, our perfect Example in all things, was foremost a Person of Prayer. Thus, it is evident, that prayer is neither meaningless nor valueless. But this still does not remove the difficulty nor answer the question: What then is the relationship between God's Sovereignty and Christian prayer?

To begin, I would assert that prayer is not intended to change God's purpose, nor is it to move Him to form fresh purposes. God has decreed that certain events shall come to pass through the means He has appointed for their accomplishment. God has elected certain ones to be saved, but He has also decreed that these shall be converted through the preaching the Gospel. The Gospel, then, is one of the appointed means for the working out of the eternal counsel of the Lord; and prayer is another. God has decreed the means as well as the end, and among the means is prayer. Even the prayers of His people are included in His eternal decrees. Therefore, instead of prayers being in vain they are one the means through which God exercises His decrees.

That prayers for the execution of the very things decreed by God are not meaningless is clearly taught in the Scriptures. Elijah knew that God was about to give rain, but that did not prevent him from at once taking himself to prayer (James 5:17-18). Daniel "understood" by the writings of the prophets that the captivity was to last but seventy years, yet when these seventy years were almost ended we are told that he set his face "unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes" (Daniel 9:2-3). God told the prophet Jeremiah “For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans for wholeness and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope. Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will hear you.” (Jeremiah 29:11-12).

Here then is the design of prayer: not that God's will may be altered (for it cannot), but that it may be accomplished in His own good time and way. It is because God has promised certain things that we can ask for them with the full assurance of faith. It is God's purpose that His will is brought about by His own appointed means, and that He may do His people good upon His own terms, and that is, by the 'means' and 'terms' of entreaty and supplication. Did not Christ know for certain that after His death and resurrection He would be exalted by the Father? Of course He did. Yet we find Christ asking for this very thing in John 17:5: "And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed." Did not Christ know that none of His people could perish? Yet He sought God the Father to "keep" them (John 17:11).

It should be remembered that God's will is immutable, and cannot be altered by our pleas. When the mind of God is not toward a people to do them good, it cannot be turned to them by the most fervent and troublesome prayer of those who have the greatest interest in Him: "Then the LORD said to me, "Though Moses and Samuel stood before me, yet my heart would not turn toward this people. Send them out of my sight, and let them go!" (Jeremiah 15:1). Similarly, the prayers of Moses to enter the Promised Land are another example.

So, in summary, we have the answer, namely, that our prayers are in the ordaining, and that God has as much ordained His people's prayers as anything else He has ordained, and when we pray we are producing links in the chain of ordained facts. God decrees that we should pray—we pray; God decrees that we shall be answered, and the answer comes to us.

 

[Near]

If you were being robbed at gunpoint, would you pray something along these lines?

"Lord, please don't let that man kill me. Let me live!!"

I know I would.

Some theologies out there deny that God is in control of human actions and choices. If that is true, then why would you pray for God to intervene and essentially control the action of the robber/shooter?

So, which theology is consistent with a prayer asking God to do something? A theology that says God is in control of humans, or a theology which says God does not control human actions?

If God is not sovereign in the decisions and actions of other people as they affect us, then there is a whole major area of our lives where we cannot trust God; where we are left... to fend for ourselves. - Jerry Bridges

This same concept (praying for God to do something) goes beyond merely asking God to prevent a shooter from killing you. It can be applied to other things too, such as praying for the lost. If God can't do anything to affect the lost person (it's totally up to them and their free will), why are you praying for "Lost loved ones"? What can God do to answer your prayer? What can He do about it? Why do churches have prayer lists, including a category such as "Salvation". What can God do to affect the person's salvation? Isn't up to the person, not God?

How about praying for safe travel? If you are praying for safe travel, aren't you asking God to not let other people crash into you? You are asking God to control them.

As you can see, God being in control of human actions and choices is the only way that prayer makes any sense at all!

Actually, God could cause the gun to stop working.
He could give the gunman a heart attack
He could make you invincible.
He could do a great number of things.

Secondly, as a synergist, I believe God can control people. He can take over their will and cause them to do what is against their will. The thing is, in monergism, why ask God to control anyone since everyone is already in his direct control, without libertarian free will?

About safe travel, he doesn't have to directly control them, he could merely influence people, cause someone to have to use the restroom and thereby missing a train which will crash...

Use your imagination.

 

[nobdysfool]

Prayer is not for us to get God to do what we want, it is the vehicle by which He draws and brings us into conformity with what He wants.

 

[EmSw]

Prayer is not for us to get God to do what we want, it is the vehicle by which He draws and brings us into conformity with what He wants.

Since you believe God has already determined what you will do, isn't a prayer to bring you into conformity with what He wants pointless? You will do what He determines no matter what you pray.

If God determines for one to believe falsehoods, can prayer change that?
If God determines for one to ignore truths from His word, will his/her prayer be effective?
If God determines one to be lead into temptation, will prayer not be useless?
If God determines not to give one daily bread, is prayer worth anything?
If God determines not to deliver one from evil, isn't the Lord's prayer meaningless?
If God determines not to forgive one's trespasses, what would be the use of praying the Lord's prayer?
If God determines one to be a reprobate, will prayer for salvation do any good?
If God determines one to be deceived, can prayer overcome God's determination?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Since you believe God has already determined what you will do, isn't a prayer to bring you into conformity with what He wants pointless? You will do what He determines no matter what you pray.

If God determines for one to believe falsehoods, can prayer change that?
If God determines for one to ignore truths from His word, will his/her prayer be effective?
If God determines one to be lead into temptation, will prayer not be useless?
If God determines not to give one daily bread, is prayer worth anything?
If God determines not to deliver one from evil, isn't the Lord's prayer meaningless?
If God determines not to forgive one's trespasses, what would be the use of praying the Lord's prayer?
If God determines one to be a reprobate, will prayer for salvation do any good?
If God determines one to be deceived, can prayer overcome God's determination?

I'm very anxious to see the answers from any of the determinists. Really tough questions!

 

[AndOne]

Since you believe God has already determined what you will do, isn't a prayer to bring you into conformity with what He wants pointless? You will do what He determines no matter what you pray.

If God determines for one to believe falsehoods, can prayer change that?
If God determines for one to ignore truths from His word, will his/her prayer be effective?
If God determines one to be lead into temptation, will prayer not be useless?
If God determines not to give one daily bread, is prayer worth anything?
If God determines not to deliver one from evil, isn't the Lord's prayer meaningless?
If God determines not to forgive one's trespasses, what would be the use of praying the Lord's prayer?
If God determines one to be a reprobate, will prayer for salvation do any good?
If God determines one to be deceived, can prayer overcome God's determination?

Seeing as how we don't know the final outcome of anything in life - except salvation - then all of these prayers are necessary from a human perspective. By asking these questions you are assuming that man can ask for anything on equal footing with God - which is precisely the opposite of what any Calvinist or Christian should do. We pray because we are God's humble and lowly servants and to show our trust in God.

 

[OzSpen]

Prayer is not for us to get God to do what we want, it is the vehicle by which He draws and brings us into conformity with what He wants.

I disagree profoundly:

7“Keep on asking, and you will receive what you ask for. Keep on seeking, and you will find. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks, receives. Everyone who seeks, finds. And to everyone who knocks, the door will be opened.
9“You parents—if your children ask for a loaf of bread, do you give them a stone instead? 10Or if they ask for a fish, do you give them a snake? Of course not! 11So if you sinful people know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give good gifts to those who ask him (Matt 7:7-11 NLT).
​

Oz

 

[nobdysfool]

I disagree profoundly:

7“Keep on asking, and you will receive what you ask for. Keep on seeking, and you will find. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks, receives. Everyone who seeks, finds. And to everyone who knocks, the door will be opened.
9“You parents—if your children ask for a loaf of bread, do you give them a stone instead? 10Or if they ask for a fish, do you give them a snake? Of course not! 11So if you sinful people know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give good gifts to those who ask him (Matt 7:7-11 NLT).
​

Oz

Quite frankly, I think you completely missed what I said. Nothing of what I said disagrees in any way with the verses you quoted.

Prayer, first and foremost, is one of the ways we spend time with God, directing our attention to Him and away from ourselves, and fostering the ability to hear Him speak to our spirits. Prayer is not just about what we can get from Him, although He wants us to bring our needs and desires to Him. It is about increasing our awareness of Him, and learning to hear the still, small voice in us.

There is a protocol in prayer, as Jesus taught us how to pray (the Lord's Prayer), which is basically a blueprint, an outline of prayer. Many people when they are in a desperate situation or danger, or trouble, will try to bargain with God (I'll stop doing this, I'll start doing that, etc.) God doesn't want to hear that because most people are lying when they do it. If it doesn't turn out the way they want, they will not do what they promised to do, reasoning that since God didn't give them what they wanted, they are not obligated to give Him what they promised.

You have no standing to bargain with God. In those situations, Pray, give your requests to God, and then let go of them! That's what faith does! If you've given it to God, you should not be trying to hang on to it. Let. it. go! Start thanking Him for the answer! It's in His hands, let Him do as He wills! You cannot give something to God, and yet still hang on to it. Either he has it, or you still have it! It's never both. God doesn't need your help.

 

[OzSpen]

Quite frankly, I think you completely missed what I said. Nothing of what I said disagrees in any way with the verses you quoted.

Prayer, first and foremost, is one of the ways we spend time with God, directing our attention to Him and away from ourselves, and fostering the ability to hear Him speak to our spirits. Prayer is not just about what we can get from Him, although He wants us to bring our needs and desires to Him. It is about increasing our awareness of Him, and learning to hear the still, small voice in us.

There is a protocol in prayer, as Jesus taught us how to pray (the Lord's Prayer), which is basically a blueprint, an outline of prayer. Many people when they are in a desperate situation or danger, or trouble, will try to bargain with God (I'll stop doing this, I'll start doing that, etc.) God doesn't want to hear that because most people are lying when they do it. If it doesn't turn out the way they want, they will not do what they promised to do, reasoning that since God didn't give them what they wanted, they are not obligated to give Him what they promised.

You have no standing to bargain with God. In those situations, Pray, give your requests to God, and then let go of them! That's what faith does! If you've given it to God, you should not be trying to hang on to it. Let. it. go! Start thanking Him for the answer! It's in His hands, let Him do as He wills! You cannot give something to God, and yet still hang on to it. Either he has it, or you still have it! It's never both. God doesn't need your help.

My brother in Christ,

I did not 'completely miss' what you said. I was replying to this statement by you: 'Prayer is not for us to get God to do what we want, it is the vehicle by which He draws and brings us into conformity with what He wants'.

I provided Matt 7:7-11 as an example of God asking us to keep on asking about our needs. If I ask for bread, will he give me a stone? Of course not! If I ask for a fish, will he give me a serpent? Of course not! And have a guess what? 'Your Father who is in heaven [will] give good things to those who ask him'. They are some of the specifics of these verses.

I was responding to one of your specific emphases with which I disagreed - and with biblical warrant.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Seeing as how we don't know the final outcome of anything in life - except salvation - then all of these prayers are necessary from a human perspective. By asking these questions you are assuming that man can ask for anything on equal footing with God - which is precisely the opposite of what any Calvinist or Christian should do. We pray because we are God's humble and lowly servants and to show our trust in God.

And we don't know the final outcome of salvation either - as that is a Calvinistic presupposition. Hebrews 6:4-6 and 1 Tim 1:19-20 demonstrate.

On a practical level, we know it from the sad experience of people like Charles Templeton, a former evangelist with Billy Graham in Youth for Christ. Templeton wrote how it happened for him in:


(Courtesy McClelland & Steward Ltd)

Sadly, I was in an evangelical theological college with 2 students who were prominent as an evangelist and a Bible teacher, but they no longer serve the Lord. They have rejected the Christian faith. We have evidence from Scripture of people who fall away from the faith and experience in the contemporary world.

 

[nobdysfool]

My brother in Christ,

I did not 'completely miss' what you said. I was replying to this statement by you: 'Prayer is not for us to get God to do what we want, it is the vehicle by which He draws and brings us into conformity with what He wants'.

I provided Matt 7:7-11 as an example of God asking us to keep on asking about our needs. If I ask for bread, will he give me a stone? Of course not! If I ask for a fish, will he give me a serpent? Of course not! And have a guess what? 'Your Father who is in heaven [will] give good things to those who ask him'. They are some of the specifics of these verses.

I was responding to one of your specific emphases with which I disagreed - and with biblical warrant.

Oz

I understood what you were objecting to, and tried to expand on why I said what I said. Interesting that you did not address anything else, other than my original statement. You seem to be presenting the Matt 7 passage as the sine qua non of the matter. It is only one aspect of prayer, and what it is done for. There is much more, and that's what I am speaking to. You are free to attempt to prove me wrong, using Scripture. Matt. 7 does not prove me wrong. it doesn't even address what I really said.

I don't view prayer primarily as a means of 'getting something from God'. Do we pray for His provision? Of course, and Jesus did tell us to do that. Do we pray for His protection? Of course, and we are encouraged to do that in Scripture. But is that all that prayer is about? NO, and that's what I am trying to bring out. It is said that 'prayer changes things', and while that may be true, prayer also changes YOU.

Why is there this knee-jerk reaction against Calvinists (or perceived Calvinists) that prevents non-Calvinists from agreeing with anything they say? Address the rest of what I said.