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Hammster

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I understood what you were objecting to, and tried to expand on why I said what I said. Interesting that you did not address anything else, other than my original statement.

I don't view prayer primarily as a means of 'getting something from God'. Do we pray for His provision? Of course, and Jesus did tell us to do that. Do we pray for His protection? Of course, and we are encouraged to do that in Scripture. But is that all that prayer is about? NO, and that's what I am trying to bring out. It is said that 'prayer changes things', and while that may be true, prayer also changes YOU.

Why is there this knee-jerk reaction against Calvinists (or perceived Calvinists) that prevents non-Calvinists from agreeing with anything they say? Address the rest of what I said.

Even in our prayers to "get God to do what we want" (which seems to be Oz's position), we still aren't praying to get God to change His mind, unless one looks at the Matt passage superficially. If I'm asking God for provision or protection, it acknowledges that God is the provider of those things. So it does serve to change me from independent (natural) do dependent (spiritual).
 
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nobdysfool

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Hammster has gotten the point I was making. Prayer isn't primarily to get stuff, it is to draw closer to God, so that He can begin to show us what He wants, and has ordained. I know that grinds the gears of the synergists, who pride themselves on their 'free will' and their supposed autonomy (which they will, of course, vigorously deny).

God is not the kindly old grandfather doling out gifts and trinkets to his grandkids. He is the Sovereign Lord of the Universe and all Creation, and He has a definite Purpose and Plan, and nothing happens apart from His knowing and ordaining of it. I know that will cause heads to explode with regard to evil events, but the very fact that they happen, and God does not stop them, shows that those events serve Him in some way in the Purpose and Plan that He has ordained. We need to remember, He is God and we are not. It is when we don't understand why, that we are counseled to trust in Him. It's easy to believe when things are going your way. The true test of your faith is when things aren't going your way.

Take our needs, concerns, and troubles to God in prayer? Absolutely! But know that your prayers are in vain if you think to limit Him as to how He can answer, or try to bargain with Him, or try to 'cut a deal'. True faith knows that God may answer in an unexpected or unanticipated way, or He may say 'No'. It has been said that God answers our prayers in one of 3 ways: 'Yes', 'No', or 'Not now'.

Prayer is much more than a way to get things from God. Prayer, properly done, changes YOU.
 
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OzSpen

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I understood what you were objecting to, and tried to expand on why I said what I said. Interesting that you did not address anything else, other than my original statement. You seem to be presenting the Matt 7 passage as the sine qua non of the matter. It is only one aspect of prayer, and what it is done for. There is much more, and that's what I am speaking to. You are free to attempt to prove me wrong, using Scripture. Matt. 7 does not prove me wrong. it doesn't even address what I really said.

I don't view prayer primarily as a means of 'getting something from God'. Do we pray for His provision? Of course, and Jesus did tell us to do that. Do we pray for His protection? Of course, and we are encouraged to do that in Scripture. But is that all that prayer is about? NO, and that's what I am trying to bring out. It is said that 'prayer changes things', and while that may be true, prayer also changes YOU.

Why is there this knee-jerk reaction against Calvinists (or perceived Calvinists) that prevents non-Calvinists from agreeing with anything they say? Address the rest of what I said.
Brother,

Neither do I view prayer as primarily getting something from God, but if we have specific needs, God has asked us to come to him and ask for those specific needs. Matthew 7 makes that clear.

I did not mention a word about Calvinism. Thus, you have introduced another dimension that you have chosen that was not on my mind at all. I urge you not to do this because you use a red herring fallacy when you do this.

Oz
 
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OzSpen

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Even in our prayers to "get God to do what we want" (which seems to be Oz's position), we still aren't praying to get God to change His mind, unless one looks at the Matt passage superficially. If I'm asking God for provision or protection, it acknowledges that God is the provider of those things. So it does serve to change me from independent (natural) do dependent (spiritual).
That's a straw man fallacy, Hammster. That is NOT my position to 'get God to do what we want'. At no point did I insist that that was my position. I was responding with an example from Matt 7 where God asks us to ask of Him if we have a specific need.

By the way, if you have an issue with my post, please respond to me and not talk behind my back to somebody else.

Oz
 
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Willie T

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What about praying for wisdom to know what to do and say?

What about praying for courage to cease the opportunities God presents to you?
Frankly, the moment I read the OP, I was thinking almost the same thoughts you expressed.

I have a tendency to pray, "OK, God, what are we doing now?" "You call it, and I'll try to comply."
 
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nobdysfool

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Brother,

Neither do I view prayer as primarily getting something from God, but if we have specific needs, God has asked us to come to him and ask for those specific needs. Matthew 7 makes that clear.

I did not mention a word about Calvinism. Thus, you have introduced another dimension that you have chosen that was not on my mind at all. I urge you not to do this because you use a red herring fallacy when you do this.

Oz

Then why will you not engage with the rest of what I wrote? I've already pointed out that your objection does not really address what I said. You clearly did not get the point I was trying to make, and my point did not in any way detract from what you answered with, although you were trying to make it appear so.

In fact, I could lay the charge that you replied to my post with a red herring logical fallacy.

So, how about addressing what I wrote, all of it, and quit nit-picking. Can you do that?
 
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Hammster

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That's a straw man fallacy, Hammster. That is NOT my position to 'get God to do what we want'. At no point did I insist that that was my position. I was responding with an example from Matt 7 where God asks us to ask of Him if we have a specific need.

By the way, if you have an issue with my post, please respond to me and not talk behind my back to somebody else.

Oz

I'll post in any way I see fit, thank you.

Nbf said "Prayer is not for us to get God to do what we want, it is the vehicle by which He draws and brings us into conformity with what He wants."

You disagreed profoundly.

Hence, no straw man.
 
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OzSpen

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Then why will you not engage with the rest of what I wrote? I've already pointed out that your objection does not really address what I said. You clearly did not get the point I was trying to make, and my point did not in any way detract from what you answered with, although you were trying to make it appear so.

In fact, I could lay the charge that you replied to my post with a red herring logical fallacy.

So, how about addressing what I wrote, all of it, and quit nit-picking. Can you do that?
For you to say that, you don't know what a red herring logical fallacy is. I addressed what you wrote specifically to demonstrate that God does ask us to ask him for our specific needs.

And I notice you have avoided what I said about Calvinism. It was NOWHERE in my reply about prayer. It's your invention, which demonstrates you are pressing your own agenda - a red herring logical fallacy.

Bye, Oz
 
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OzSpen

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I'll post in any way I see fit, thank you.

Nbf said "Prayer is not for us to get God to do what we want, it is the vehicle by which He draws and brings us into conformity with what He wants."

You disagreed profoundly.

Hence, no straw man.
Talking behind my back is gossip. When will you quit it?
 
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nobdysfool

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For you to say that, you don't know what a red herring logical fallacy is. I addressed what you wrote specifically to demonstrate that God does ask us to ask him for our specific needs.

And what I posted did not deny that in any way. I was speaking to a broader aspect of prayer, one that you apparently either don't believe, or don't understand. And once again, you avoid addressing what I was actually speaking about and to, to press your agenda.

And I notice you have avoided what I said about Calvinism. It was NOWHERE in my reply about prayer. It's your invention, which demonstrates you are pressing your own agenda

Just speculating on why I would be getting blowback on a subject that has nothing to do with Calvinism, and on which we should be agreeing. You seem intent on trying to make it appear that I was denying Scripture, which is at best a misunderstanding of what I said, and at worst, misrepresentation of what I said, and bearing false witness.

All this nit-picking over logical fallacies is getting quite tiresome. You have committed your own share of them, so let that go, and engage with the rest of what I said.

Can you do that? Will you do that?
 
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OzSpen

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And what I posted did not deny that in any way. I was speaking to a broader aspect of prayer, one that you apparently either don't believe, or don't understand. And once again, you avoid addressing what I was actually speaking about and to, to press your agenda.

Just speculating on why I would be getting blowback on a subject that has nothing to do with Calvinism, and on which we should be agreeing. You seem intent on trying to make it appear that I was denying Scripture, which is at best a misunderstanding of what I said, and at worst, misrepresentation of what I said, and bearing false witness.

All this nit-picking over logical fallacies is getting quite tiresome. You have committed your own share of them, so let that go, and engage with the rest of what I said.

Can you do that? Will you do that?
When you speak to me in this manner and with such false information about what I stated, I will not respond to your specifics.

Bye
 
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Hammster

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Talking behind my back is gossip. When will you quit it?

I didn't talk about you. I just stated what you believe. And I noticed that you have no rebuttal from my previous post.
 
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OzSpen

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Says the man who has mentioned me repeatedly in his blogs.
I don't have a blog. I have a homepage. I include many people who have presented their views on the www in my articles. You happen to be one of them.

Don't you know the difference between gossiping about me on this forum and my including your public statements in an article?
 
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Hammster

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I don't have a blog. I have a homepage. I include many people who have presented their views on the www in my articles. You happen to be one of them.

Don't you know the difference between gossiping about me on this forum and my including your public statements in an article?

Splitting hairs. You talked about me without my knowledge. I spoke about your views in a forum in which you participate.
 
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OzSpen

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Splitting hairs. You talked about me without my knowledge. I spoke about your views in a forum in which you participate.
No splitting hairs, mate! I have no blog of my own on the www. You gossiped about my views on this forum - behind my back. If you have an issue about my views, speak with me directly.

Bye
 
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nobdysfool

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When you speak to me in this manner and with such false information about what I stated, I will not respond to your specifics.

Bye

It seems that you love taking others to task for how they say what they say, but cannot accept the same about what you say. At the very least, you were misunderstood (I'll allow for that possibility), but it wasn't just me that took exception to what you said.

If you didn't mean to come off like you were criticizing me or trying to correct me, you did a very poor job of it. You could have cleared that up right away, but seeing how you didn't, it is reasonable to assume that you meant to be critical, and to try to "correct" me, as though I was not aware of Matt. 7, which I assure you I am, and avail myself of its instructions nearly every day.

As I said before, nothing in Matthew 7 contradicts or disagrees with what I said. The fact that I did not mention that particular aspect of prayer does not mean that I don't believe it, or am ignorant of it, which your post implied. Ergo, since you are not correcting the wrong impression that you left, even if it was inadvertently, I must assume that you meant to imply a lack of knowledge on my part, which was done without warrant.

And you still refuse to address what I said, both originally, and in subsequent posts where I expanded on my meaning and intent, and you refuse to do so because you're offended that someone actually took you to task for what you said, and how you said it. Seems that the method and the wording are more important than the actual content. I think that's pretty sad. I expected better from you than that. You are capable of better than that.
 
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Hammster

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No splitting hairs, mate! I have no blog of my own on the www. You gossiped about my views on this forum - behind my back. If you have an issue about my views, speak with me directly.

Bye

Not behind your back. Right up front where it can be read. Someone else alerted me to your blog/site/whatever you call it band since there's no way to respond, it was even more like gossip.
 
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