If you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments

[BobRyan]

1 John 5
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

Mark 7
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

John 14:15 "IF you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments"

Rev 14:12 "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"

The Law of Moses and its law of circumcision is now called the law of bondage.

Your opposition to the teaching of Christ in Mark 7 "noted".

But not all Christians will choose to be at war against the teaching of Christ as Paul points out in Romans 8:4-9

 

[BobRyan]

The historical records show that the apostles and the early church fathers taught that Sunday was the day of the week they were to gather together for public worship of God.

historical records - faked? such at least 8 of Ignatius' letters and other rife with interpolation?

Or are you referring to the Bible writer's as those writing "historical records"? if so, do you find the Bible writers recording the details that you mention?

 

[Travis93]

Ezekiel 40-Ezekiel 48 is speaking of the Second Temple which was built after the Israelites returned to Israel there after their exile. This temple was still in existence when Jesus was born. Jesus' perfect offering of Himself on the cross has made all animal sacrifices obsolete. It would be an insult to God for animal sacrifices to be re-instated in a new temple in Jerusalem.

Jesus does not need a third temple to be built in Jerusalem. After Jesus returns at His second coming, He will be the Christians' temple in the New Jerusalem.

Revelation 21:22
And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. rsv​

Ezekiel's temple did not exist in Jesus's time, there was no river of healing coming from the second temple (Ezekiel 47), the individual tribes did not have the specified land (Ezekiel 48), and the temple was nowhere near as massive in area as described. The second temple was already in construction when it was prophesied of another temple being built (Zechariah 6:12-13), and it was already done when it was prophesied that a messenger of God would purify the Levites to make better animal sacrifices (Malachi 3:3-4). Zechariah 14:16-21 prophesies of a time when all nations will come to keep the feast of tabernacles and make sacrifices.

Jeremiah 33:15 In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.
Jeremiah 33:16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The Lord our righteousness.
Jeremiah 33:17 For thus saith the Lord; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel;
Jeremiah 33:18 Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually.

This is a still future event as even after the return of babylonian captivity there was no king on the throne, they had governors and were subject to the Persians, Greeks, and Romans, before ultimately being destroyed and scattered. There was no safe dwelling or freedom for them at any point.

 

[Jan001]

Jan,
It is you who does not know what fulfill here means.

The greek is Pleroo.

Strong's: universally and absolutely, to fulfil, i. e. "to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment":Matthew 5:17; cf. Weiss, Das Matthäusevang. as above with, p. 146f http://biblehub.com/greek/4137.htm

“Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.18“For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

The used of Fulfill here is EXACTLY as strong's defines it. To OBEY the law as it should be. You and many others try and FORCE it to mean something that makes Yeshua's words turn into gibberish.

He is VERY clear here. You are trying to have messiah say " I did not come to abolish the law but to abolish it.....

He is saying I did not come to abolish the law but to cause God's will as made known in the torah to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises which were given through the prophets to receive fulfilment

THIS is the gospel message concerning the Torah. How is it that you COMPLETELY ignore what we are told in 1st John? That we are to "WALK AS HE WALKED" How do you simply white wash that away??????

The meaning of a covenant and its fulfillment/completion

When a man and a woman make a marriage covenant, their covenant with each other is in force only until one of them dies. When one of the spouses dies, the other spouse is then free to make a new marriage covenant with a different person.

The first marriage covenant was fulfilled/finished/completed when one of the two spouses died. The first marriage covenant is therefore now obsolete/no longer in force.

So the surviving spouse makes a new marriage covenant with a different person and this new covenant is now in force and it will be in force until one of these two spouses dies.

A covenant is in force only until it is fulfilled/completed/finished. Jesus perfectly fulfilled/completed/finished the first covenant by His death on the cross. He had finished all that He was sent to earth to do. Luke 24:44, [URL='https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+19%3A30&version=RSV']John 19:30[/URL]

Jesus also mediated His new covenant by His death on the cross. Hebrews 8:6

[URL='https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+9:15&version=RSV']Hebrews 9:15[/URL]
Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred which redeems them from the transgressions under the first covenant. rsv

​

The heaven and earth in Matthew 5:18 is actually the temple in the city of Jerusalem and all its worship practices.

This heaven and earth passed away in 70 A.D. just as Jesus prophesied.

Matthew 5:18
For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. rsv

Luke 19:41-46
And when he drew near and saw the city he wept over it, 42 saying, “Would that even today you knew the things that make for peace! But now they are hid from your eyes. 43 For the days shall come upon you, when your enemies will cast up a bank about you and surround you, and hem you in on every side, 44 and dash you to the ground, you and your children within you, and they will not leave one stone upon another in you; because you did not know the time of your visitation. 45 And he entered the temple and began to drive out those who sold, 46 saying to them, “It is written, ‘My house shall be a house of prayer’; but you have made it a den of robbers.” rsv

Matthew 24:34
Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away till all these things take place. rsv

1 Corinthians 7:31b
...For the form of this world is passing away. rsv

1 John 2:8
Yet I am writing you a new commandment, which is true in him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true light is already shining. rsv
​

 

[Jan001]

Sorry, I'm not buying the Sunday Sabbath tradition of Catholicism.

You may do whatever you desire to do. Jesus will be your judge, not me.

 

[W2L]

You may do whatever you desire to do. Jesus will be your judge, not me.

Exactly, and that's true of you as well.

 

[Jan001]

If 1000 is symbolic of anything, it would be symbolic of forever and everlasting.
1 Chronicles 16:17 And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant,
Psalms 119:142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.
Psalms 119:160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.
Psalms 111:7 The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure.
Psalms 111:8 They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness.
Psalms 19:7 The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.
Psalms 19:8 The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes.
Psalms 19:9 The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.

This is your opinion, your own understanding of the Scriptures. Your own opinion/understanding of the Scriptures is not necessarily the opinion or understanding of each of the Scripture writers. You believe them to be the same as your own, but you may be mistaken.

 

[Jan001]

Slow down a little I think.
What is written (in Romans?)
about the gentiles who live without the Torah, yet obey Torah ? See?

Those gentiles who DON'T HAVE TORAH, yet they obey TORAH, (from their heart or conscience Yhwh Gave them) ,
are better off
than the Jews who HAVE TORAH, (even read it every day, or at least listen to it read every SABBATH all their lives)
but disobey TORAH.

As in "The letter of the TORAH kills, but the Spirit of TORAH gives life"..... (and leads us to Yeshua Messiah.) .

What exactly do you believe the Torah to be?

 

[Travis93]

What exactly do you believe the Torah to be?

Torah is the way (Psalms 119:1), the truth (Psalms 119:151), and the life (Proverbs 13:14). It is light (Psalms 119:105), liberty (Psalms 119:45), everlasting (Psalms 119:142), good (Psalms 119:39), sweet (Psalms 119:103), righteousness (Psalms 119:40), a delight (Psalms 119:47), good doctrine (Proverbs 4:2), God's word (Psalms 119:172), endures forever (Psalms 119:160), perfect and coverts the soul (Psalms 19:7), makes you wise (Psalms 19:8), clean (Psalms 19:9), more desirable than gold or honey (Psalms 19:10), and are for ever (Psalms 111:9). It is the whole duty of man (Ecclesiastes 12:13), how we show our love for God (Exodus 20:6), something we should remember (Malachi 4:4). Those without the law have no light in them (Isaiah 8:20), are a false prophet (Deuteronomy 13:1-5), and his prayer are an abomination (Proverbs 28:9).

Whoever does and teaches the law will be great in the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 5:19), faith does not void it (Romans 3:31), it is holy just and good (Romans 7:12), and is a delight to the believer (Romans 7:22). We know Jesus kept it, and we are to walk as he did (1 John 2:6), be conformed to his image (Romans 8:29), and follow his example of not sinning (1 Peter 2:21-22).

 

[W2L]

Torah is the way (Psalms 119:1), the truth (Psalms 119:151), and the life (Proverbs 13:14). It is light (Psalms 119:105), liberty (Psalms 119:45), everlasting (Psalms 119:142), good (Psalms 119:39), sweet (Psalms 119:103), righteousness (Psalms 119:40), a delight (Psalms 119:47), good doctrine (Proverbs 4:2), God's word (Psalms 119:172), endures forever (Psalms 119:160), perfect and coverts the soul (Psalms 19:7), makes you wise (Psalms 19:8), clean (Psalms 19:9), more desirable than gold or honey (Psalms 19:10), and are for ever (Psalms 111:9). It is the whole duty of man (Ecclesiastes 12:13), how we show our love for God (Exodus 20:6), something we should remember (Malachi 4:4). Those without the law have no light in them (Isaiah 8:20), are a false prophet (Deuteronomy 13:1-5), and his prayer are an abomination (Proverbs 28:9).

Whoever does and teaches the law will be great in the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 5:19), faith does not void it (Romans 3:31), it is holy just and good (Romans 7:12), and is a delight to the believer (Romans 7:22). We know Jesus kept it, and we are to walk as he did (1 John 2:6), be conformed to his image (Romans 8:29), and follow his example of not sinning (1 Peter 2:21-22).

Look, if you are going to speak Gods holy scriptures then don't misquote them. Jesus said whoever obeys and teaches "these words of mine" will be considered great in the kingdom.

You have shown a clear pattern of mishandling the scriptures. Don't do that. It only proves that you are not using them correctly.

 

[Jan001]

Ezekiel's temple did not exist in Jesus's time, there was no river of healing coming from the second temple (Ezekiel 47), the individual tribes did not have the specified land (Ezekiel 48), and the temple was nowhere near as massive in area as described. The second temple was already in construction when it was prophesied of another temple being built (Zechariah 6:12-13), and it was already done when it was prophesied that a messenger of God would purify the Levites to make better animal sacrifices (Malachi 3:3-4). Zechariah 14:16-21 prophesies of a time when all nations will come to keep the feast of tabernacles and make sacrifices.

Symbolic language is not meant to be understood in a literal manner. And, no, Ezekiel's temple did not exist when he made this prophecy. Solomon's Temple had been destroyed and the Second Temple had not yet been built.

I don't think that today there are any known Levite/Zadok descendants. A third temple would be worthless to the Jews without a valid priesthood.

Jeremiah 33:15 In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.
Jeremiah 33:16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The Lord our righteousness.
Jeremiah 33:17 For thus saith the Lord; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel;
Jeremiah 33:18 Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually.

This refers to the reign of Jesus Christ.

This is a still future event as even after the return of babylonian captivity there was no king on the throne, they had governors and were subject to the Persians, Greeks, and Romans, before ultimately being destroyed and scattered. There was no safe dwelling or freedom for them at any point.

This is symbolic language. Jesus Christ will be our Temple. Jesus Christ is our everlasting King right now and He is sitting and ruling at the right hand of His Father on His throne in heaven right now. Mark 16:19, Luke 22:69, Acts 5:31[URL='https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+5:31&version=NIV'], [/URL]Hebrews 1:3, Hebrews 1:3, 1 Corinthians 15:20-26

Faithful Christians spiritually dwell safely in Jesus Christ right now.

We will not ever need a new third temple in Jerusalem.

 

[Jan001]

Exactly, and that's true of you as well.

I know.

 

[W2L]

I know.

As do I. You might be surprised when you get there.

 

[Travis93]

Look, if you are going to speak Gods holy scriptures then don't misquote them. Jesus said whoever obeys and teaches "these words of mine" will be considered great in the kingdom.

You have shown a clear pattern of mishandling the scriptures. Don't do that. It only proves that you are not using them correctly.

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Jan001]

Torah is the way (Psalms 119:1), the truth (Psalms 119:151), and the life (Proverbs 13:14). It is light (Psalms 119:105), liberty (Psalms 119:45), everlasting (Psalms 119:142), good (Psalms 119:39), sweet (Psalms 119:103), righteousness (Psalms 119:40), a delight (Psalms 119:47), good doctrine (Proverbs 4:2), God's word (Psalms 119:172), endures forever (Psalms 119:160), perfect and coverts the soul (Psalms 19:7), makes you wise (Psalms 19:8), clean (Psalms 19:9), more desirable than gold or honey (Psalms 19:10), and are for ever (Psalms 111:9). It is the whole duty of man (Ecclesiastes 12:13), how we show our love for God (Exodus 20:6), something we should remember (Malachi 4:4). Those without the law have no light in them (Isaiah 8:20), are a false prophet (Deuteronomy 13:1-5), and his prayer are an abomination (Proverbs 28:9).

Whoever does and teaches the law will be great in the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 5:19), faith does not void it (Romans 3:31), it is holy just and good (Romans 7:12), and is a delight to the believer (Romans 7:22). We know Jesus kept it, and we are to walk as he did (1 John 2:6), be conformed to his image (Romans 8:29), and follow his example of not sinning (1 Peter 2:21-22).

I think the Jews believe the Torah to be everything that is written in the first five books of their Bible. We know that circumcision is a very important law in the Jewish Torah and that circumcision is required of all Jewish males.

We also know that circumcision is not important or required for Christians.

1 Corinthians 7:18
Was any one at the time of his call already circumcised? Let him not seek to remove the marks of circumcision. Was any one at the time of his call uncircumcised? Let him not seek circumcision. rsv

Galatians 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love. rsv

1 Corinthians 7:19
For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God. rsv
​

The apostles abolished the requirement for circumcision for all Christians. They taught that circumcision did not count for anything in the kingdom of God.

It seems plain to me that the commandments required for the keeping the commandments of God for the NT Christian are different than the commandments required for the keeping of the commandments of God for the OT Jew.

Romans 6:15
What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! rsv
​

Anything we Christians do which harms another person is a sin under Jesus Christ's new covenant of grace, but our not keeping the Sabbath law of the OT Jew is not a sin under Jesus Christ's new covenant of grace.

Only the Israelites/Jews were required to keep the Sabbath. Abraham was not ever required to keep the Sabbath. All faithful Christians are the children of Abraham and as his heirs, they also are not required to keep the Jewish Sabbath.

Galatians 3:29
And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.​

 

[1John2:4]

If 1000 is symbolic of anything, it would be symbolic of forever and everlasting.
1 Chronicles 16:17 And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant,
Psalms 119:142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.
Psalms 119:160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.
Psalms 111:7 The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure.
Psalms 111:8 They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness.
Psalms 19:7 The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.
Psalms 19:8 The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes.
Psalms 19:9 The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.

This is off topic so I'm not going to say too much about it because I don't want to derail the post but if you go into the escotology forum under 7000 year plan one of the members added up the years from Adam. It is very interesting, I thought you may want to take a look at it

 

[1John2:4]

Only the Israelites/Jews were required to keep the Sabbath. Abraham was not ever required to keep the Sabbath. All faithful Christians are the children of Abraham and as his heirs, they also are not required to keep the Jewish Sabbath.

It is not written Abraham did not keep Sabbath. He kept His commands his precepts and His charge. I believe that included the Holy Convocations.
Where is that written in the scriptures, anywhere? That non Jews only keep some of the law? This is not sound doctrine, you keep all of it or none of it.
For the person who keeps all of the laws except one is as guilty as a person who has broken all of God's laws. James 2:10
Where does it say you only keep 9 of the commandments? That is s rebellious heart, that is a lie from the beginning. Did Satan not say that Eve did not have to keep Gods word? It's the same snare and trap. Sin is transgression of Gods law. God cannot reside with a rebellious people who thinks His instructions are a legalistic burden. He is perferct, His ways are perfect and He does not change. Paul kept Sabbath and the Holy Convocations, these are Gods days He must have a purpose for creating them the way He did. We should not lean on our own understanding.

 

[Bob S]

It is not written Abraham did not keep Sabbath. He kept His commands his precepts and His charge. I believe that included the Holy Convocations.

Was Abraham led out of Egypt by God?
12 “Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as the Lord your God has commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your ox, your donkey or any of your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns, so that your male and female servants may rest, as you do. 15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the Lord your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.

What reason would Abraham have kept the feast days given only to Israel?

Why would Abraham have reason to observe Passover?

Where is that written in the scriptures, anywhere? That non Jews only keep some of the law? This is not sound doctrine, you keep all of it or none of it.

You absolutely do not know what you are talking about.

We should not lean on our own understanding.

Amen!

 

[BukiRob]

How does a Baptist observe Sabbath? On what day do they observe it, and what OT Sabbath restrictions do they observe?

This, right here, is the problem.

We are believers and followers of Yeshua the Messiah. IF one wants to know one, opens the word, reads, meditates and pray's. And then you follow HIM. Its about what G-d says, and when man says something that conflicts what G-d says you follow G-d

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I know.

Jesus, Yhwh's Word,
is the Judge.
Yet some continue to follow men who oppose Jesus, who Jesus says to beware their teachings(do not believe them), because they oppose God.

John 9:41
KJ21
Jesus said unto them, “If ye were blind, ye should have no sin; but now ye say, ‘We see.’ Therefore your sin remaineth.