If you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments

[Bob S]

The foundation of the Church was built upon Peter and the apostles and prophets with Jesus as its cornerstone/ROCK.

The foundation of the Church was not built upon the Bible.


Why do you think God changed Abram's name to Abraham? Why do you think God changed Jacob's name to Israel? Why do you think Jesus changed Simon's name to Peter?

Matthew 16:17-19
And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” rsv


Matthew 18:16-18
If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. rsv


John 20:19-23
On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” 20 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. 21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained. rsv

Matthew 28:18-20
And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe (obey) all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.” rsv

Ephesians 2:19-21
So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone (ROCK), 21 in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; rsv​

Luke 6:48
He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock. nkjv

1 Corinthians 3:10-11
According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it. 11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. rsv
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The Church, it's hierarchy's/magisterium's teachings, are the support and foundation of the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ. The Bible is not the foundation of the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

1 Timothy 3:15
if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth. niv

Luke 10:16
“Whoever listens to you (Church hierarchy/magisterium) listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.” niv

​

There is no Scripture that commands each person to go out and buy a Bible, read it, decide for himself what it means, and then build his own church according to his own personal interpretations of the Scriptures even though this is exactly what millions of people actually do today.

​

There is no power on Earth that can make me believe Peter was the first pope. Anyone can broadcast anything, but as we can see by history there was no line of succession starting with Peter. Peter, in scripture, never indicated He was the head of the church. That claim by the Catholic Church is as false as many of the real popes down through the ages. The history of the Catholic Church is not very inspiring, sad to say.

 

[Jan001]

No, I don't, and neither should you believe anyone's interpretation.
It was
by false interpretations that false doctrines and practices got introduced into the 'church';
into any congregation or church or whatever faction big or small that trusts anyone other than Yhwh.

As long as anyone trusts man's interpretation, any man's,

Yhwh says He cursed those who trust man.(this includes men in church, with traditions, practices and interpretations that DIRECTLY OPPOSE YHWH'S WORD).
And thus it is,
just exactly as Yhwh says. Those who trust man/ flesh/ mankind/ traditions/ are cursed.
Those who trust Yhwh are blessed.

Yhwh and Yeshua don't stutter when they speak.
Yhwh's Word is clear and simple and plain (for salvation REVEALED TO BABES and HIDDEN FROM the educated, on purpose, because thus it is the Father's GOOD PLEASURE so to do).

What you fail to understand is that you do believe that your own personal interpretations of the Scriptures are exactly the same as the interpretations/understandings of the apostles and disciples who wrote them. Perhaps you are mistaken in your understanding of what these men meant to teach.

For example: One person, perhaps you, believes that Jesus had biological siblings and he believes that Scripture proves his understanding to be true.

However, I do not believe that Scripture proves that Jesus had biological siblings. My own understanding of the Scriptures does not support his belief. So, which of us is correct in his understanding of the Scriptures on this topic?

Can you find Scriptures to show me that you believe do prove that Jesus had biological siblings?

Thank you.

 

[Jan001]

"You don't think"?
But you already ADMITTED you don't have faith in Jesus.
You already confessed you trust men instead.
GOD'S WORD says what I said and what I believe.
I THINK what GOD'S WORD SAYS IS TRUE. Not what the disobedient ones you trust say.
There's no reason you've given that what you think is in line with God's Word. Just the opposite. "IN FACT".
You are "in line with" men and men's traditions CONTRARY to God's Word.
You said so in your posts.

I do believe in Jesus Christ. I also try to obey to the best of my ability what He has commanded me to do.

I listen to the men that He has appointed as rulers over me in the faith and I obey them because Jesus tells me that they speak for Him.

Hebrews 13:7
Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you, whose faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct. nkjv​

Luke 10:16
“Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.” rsv​

 

[Jan001]

What was the Popes name changed from?

Pope is simply an Italian slang word for Papa. I don't know how or when the title of Pope caught on throughout the whole world. The Pope is actually the Bishop of Rome just as Peter was the Bishop of Rome and the pope/Bishop of Rome is the chief bishop of all the bishops. It is the chief bishop alone who has possession of the keys of the kingdom of God. The office of chief bishop/steward is an ongoing office and it will remain until Jesus returns to earth. Isaiah 22:15-25

The other apostles/stewards/bishops have successors also. 1 Chronicles 28:1, Acts 1:20,
1 Corinthians 9:17

Simon was the original name of Peter.

 

[BobRyan]

But not Jesus' one Church which He founded upon Peter and His successors. .

"NO other foundation can any one lay than that which WAS laid" -- and what in your view - is that foundation?

The foundation of the Church was built upon Peter

No text says that --

Here is one that fully refutes it.

1 Cor 3
5 What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth. 7 So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth. 8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor. 9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.
10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. 11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

By contrast using "you" as source - we have this

The foundation of the Church was built upon Peter

Many Christians on this board are more inclined to accept the Bible as their source for doctrine rather than merely "quoting you" -- and I think you would agree with me on this point.

Your doctrine does not survive 1 Corinthians 3.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
Eph 6:2 -- have you looked at that text?

I have considered the scriptures over the Sabbath before. I believe that the Sabbath rest is somehow observed by following the spirit. That's what I believe.

In what way do you see your preference in that regard addressing Ephesians 6:2??

you have free will - you can choose whatever you wish.

It was always Gods will that children submit to their parents, however that scripture doesn't prove that we must follow the OT commands.

Sadly for your statement - the text does not merely say "honor your father and mother" -- but it is still a good example of a commandment NOT Found in Acts 15 - as you and I both know.

Now let's quote the actual text for our sola-scriptura study - - (instead of a sola-making-stuff-up study which of course neither you or I would want to engage in.)

Eph 6
2 Honor your father and mother for this is the FIRST commandment with a promise

The FIRST in what list of commandment?

What is the unit of Law in which the FIRST commandment with a promise is that 5th commandment??

You claim that it is not the Bible Ten Commandments.

Hopefully you were not just "making stuff up" so please provide the Bible list of commandments available at the time of the writing of Eph 6 - which all Christians accepted as a unit of law - in which the FIRST commandment with a promise -- is the 5th commandment.

Hint: Let's notice the "promise" in the 5th commandment. "12 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be prolonged in the land which the Lord your God gives you." Exodus 20:12
,

Now show us a Bible list of known Law - in which that promise shows up - and is the FIRST commandment in that bible list -- with a promise.

Its true that Sabbath seems to be something that will endure even in the NC, however the only disagreement we have is on how the Sabbath is observed. You believe its to be observed on a certain day of the week,

Please be factual - God says it is to be observed on a certain day of the week... I did not author the Bible. I think it is only honest to keep this detail straight. We are not allowed to simply make stuff up or revise history.

God said -
Ex 20
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

God said -
Ex 16
22 Now on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for each one. When all the leaders of the congregation came and told Moses, 23 then he said to them, “This is what the Lord meant: Tomorrow is the Sabbath observance, a holy Sabbath to the Lord. Bake what you will bake and boil what you will boil, and all that is left over put aside to be kept until morning.” 24 So they put it aside until morning, as Moses had ordered, and it did not become foul nor was there any worm in it. 25 Moses said, “Eat it today, for today is the Sabbath to the Lord; today you will not find it in the field. 26 Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will be none.”

 

[BobRyan]

Nothing here just more scripture

You have free will - ignore all the scripture you like

 

[W2L]

Pope is simply an Italian slang word for Papa. I don't know how or when the title of Pope caught on throughout the whole world. The Pope is actually the Bishop of Rome just as Peter was the Bishop of Rome and the pope/Bishop of Rome is the chief bishop of all the bishops. It is the chief bishop alone who has possession of the keys of the kingdom of God. The office of chief bishop/steward is an ongoing office and it will remain until Jesus returns to earth. Isaiah 22:15-25

The other apostles/stewards/bishops have successors also. 1 Chronicles 28:1, Acts 1:20,
1 Corinthians 9:17

Simon was the original name of Peter.

When did Pope Francis get anew name?

 

[BobRyan]

Pope is simply an Italian slang word for Papa. I don't know how or when the title of Pope caught on throughout the whole world. The Pope is actually the Bishop of Rome just as Peter was the Bishop of Rome and the pope/Bishop of Rome is the chief bishop of all the bishops. It is the chief bishop alone who has possession of the keys of the kingdom of God. The office of chief bishop/steward is an ongoing office and it will remain until Jesus returns to earth. Isaiah 22:15-25

The other apostles/stewards/bishops have successors also. 1 Chronicles 28:1, Acts 1:20,
1 Corinthians 9:17

Simon was the original name of Peter.

Pontifex Maximus -- was the original title of pagan Roman Emperors. We all knew that as well I think.

Loyalty to Rome -- keep Rome's commands and tradition.
Loyalty to the Christian faith - keep the commands in the Bible.

"Pontifex Maximus was one of the many titles of the Emperor," https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontifex_Maximus

 

[Travis93]

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Iniquity is breaking the law of Moses, the will of the Father is to keep it. No amount of good works or lip service to Jesus calling him Lord will make up for breaking the law of Moses.

 

[BABerean2]

Iniquity is breaking the law of Moses, the will of the Father is to keep it. No amount of good works or lip service to Jesus calling him Lord will make up for breaking the law of Moses.

Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. (Here Paul compares the Sinai covenant to bondage.)

Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. (Again the Sinai covenant is compared to bondage.)

Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
(Here Paul compels the Galatian church to cast out the Sinai covenant of bondage.)

Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
(We are children of the New Covenant.)

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. (Peter described this same "yoke" in Acts chapter 15).

Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.


Not of Works- Pastor Chuck Baldwin

 

[1John2:4]

Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. (Here Paul compares the Sinai covenant to bondage.)

Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. (Again the Sinai covenant is compared to bondage.)

Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
(Here Paul compels the Galatian church to cast out the Sinai covenant of bondage.)

Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
(We are children of the New Covenant.)

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. (Peter described this same "yoke" in Acts chapter 15).

Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.


Not of Works- Pastor Chuck Baldwin

EEEEEEK, you want us to glean truth from a politician? No thanks my friend

Charles Obadiah "Chuck" Baldwin (born May 3, 1952) is an American politician, radio host, and founder-former pastor of Crossroad Baptist Church in Pensacola, Florida. As of July 2014 he was pastor of Liberty Fellowship in Kalispell, Montana. He was the presidential nominee of the Constitution Party for the 2008 U.S. presidential election and had previously been its nominee for U.S. vice president in 2004. He hosts a daily one-hour radio program, Chuck Baldwin Live, and writes a daily editorial column carried on its website, on News with Views, and on VDare.

As a Republican Party member, Baldwin was state chairman of the Florida Moral Majority in the 1980s. However, during the 2000 campaign of Republican George W. Bush for U.S. President, Baldwin left the party and began a long period of criticism of Bush. Baldwin endorsed U.S. Representative Ron Paul for the 2008 Republican nomination for president, and Paul in turn endorsed Baldwin for the presidency in the 2008 general election.

 

[BABerean2]

EEEEEEK, you want us to glean truth from a politician? No thanks my friend

You might want to do a little research on John Adams who was once president of the United States, if you think Christians cannot be politicians.

Do you want your nation run by atheists and agnostics?

The real reason you attacked Chuck Baldwin is that his sermon "Not of Works" knocks the doctrine of the Judaisers out of the ballpark.

.

 

[1John2:4]

You might want to do a little research on John Adams who was once president of the United States, if you think Christians cannot be politicians.

Do you want your nation run by atheists and agnostics?

I am quite sure anyone can be a politician if they have enough money, however I am not so sure if I want to glean my truth from them. I think I will stick to the Word of God. I believe John Adams may have been a deist not a Christian. I will research it.
To answer your question I would not like to be ruled by atheists and agnostics, but God's will be done. He allowed Pharaoh and other harsh rulers. I do not wish for that however we are really filling up our cup of wrath with our immorality. I long for His true kingdom after His return but I will respect the leaders we have now as Paul insisted.

 

[1John2:4]

You might want to do a little research on John Adams who was once president of the United States, if you think Christians cannot be politicians.

Ok did some reading on John Adams and it looks like he was a Unitarian. I believe it is somewhat like the emergent church movement which is prevalent today. Or how Constantine combined all of those religions together to make Catholic (Universal). Like Solomon said "nothing new under the sun".

Unitarianism Beliefs
While Unitarianism does not follow a specific set of beliefs and is tolerant, it does have general guidelines. Unitarians support personal and rational thinking to reach one's own conclusions. They welcome all questions and doubts, and are critical of systems with strict religious rules, scriptures, and conclusions. Unitarians believe that humans have the potential be good and that they are responsible for the evil in the world; therefore, humans are responsible for correcting their wrongdoing. They believe that religion should play a proactive role in the world. Thus, Unitarians often engage in community work. Unitarianism promotes diversity and believes that is necessary in the world. Human differences are creative, not destructive. Equality is practiced and women and homosexuals can become Unitarian ministers. Some Unitarians do not believe in God but many do. According to Unitarianism, God is one (the Mother or the Father) and is present in all things; Jesus is a simple man. God is not the union of three beings (God the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit) that Christianity promotes. God is loving and compassionate, and not harsh as in other religions.
http://www.typesofreligion.com/unitarianism.html

 

[BABerean2]

Ok did some reading on John Adams and it looks like he was a Unitarian. I believe it is somewhat like the emergent church movement which is prevalent today. Or how Constantine combined all of those religions together to make Catholic (Universal). Like Solomon said "nothing new under the sun".

Unitarianism Beliefs
While Unitarianism does not follow a specific set of beliefs and is tolerant, it does have general guidelines. Unitarians support personal and rational thinking to reach one's own conclusions. They welcome all questions and doubts, and are critical of systems with strict religious rules, scriptures, and conclusions. Unitarians believe that humans have the potential be good and that they are responsible for the evil in the world; therefore, humans are responsible for correcting their wrongdoing. They believe that religion should play a proactive role in the world. Thus, Unitarians often engage in community work. Unitarianism promotes diversity and believes that is necessary in the world. Human differences are creative, not destructive. Equality is practiced and women and homosexuals can become Unitarian ministers. Some Unitarians do not believe in God but many do. According to Unitarianism, God is one (the Mother or the Father) and is present in all things; Jesus is a simple man. God is not the union of three beings (God the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit) that Christianity promotes. God is loving and compassionate, and not harsh as in other religions.
http://www.typesofreligion.com/unitarianism.html

1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.


Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. (Here Paul compares the Sinai covenant to bondage.)


Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. (Again the Sinai covenant is compared to bondage.)

Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
(Here Paul compels the Galatian church to cast out the Sinai covenant of bondage.)

Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
(We are children of the New Covenant.)

.

 

[1John2:4]

The real reason you attacked Chuck Baldwin is that his sermon "Not of Works" knocks the doctrine of the Judaisers out of the ballpark.

Brother, let us reason together, if someone is anti the law they are lawless. That is what anti-law means, this is pretty basic stuff, I am not sure why so many people are confused by this, maybe it has to do with a strong delusion.

Strong's Concordance
anomos: lawless, without law
Original Word: ἄνομος, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: anomos
Phonetic Spelling: (an'-om-os)
Short Definition: lawless, sinful, illegal
Definition: lawless, wicked, without law.
ἀνομία, ἀνομίας, ἡ (ἄνομος);

1. properly, the condition of one without law — either because ignorant of it, or because violating it.

2 Thessalonians Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only who now restrains will do so until is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

 

[BABerean2]

Brother, let us reason together, if someone is anti the law they are lawless. That is what anti-law means, this is pretty basic stuff, I am not sure why so many people are confused by this, maybe it has to do with a strong delusion.

The delusion comes from quoting from 1 John 2:4, but then ignoring 1 John 3:22-24.

It also comes from ignoring the Book of Galatians, especially chapter 4.

The only way modern day Judaisers can get their doctrine to work is by ignoring the scripture which destroys their doctrine.

How can you or anyone else call someone "anti-law" when the person just quoted 1 John 3:22-24?

The "strong delusion" is the effort to conform God's Word to a system the Apostle Paul said was wrong.

Why do you ignore Galatians 4:24-31 and 5:1-4?

......................................................................

Galatians 5:12

(CJB) I wish the people who are bothering you would go the whole way and castrate themselves!

(ESV) I wish those who unsettle you would emasculate themselves!

(Geneva) Would to God they were euen cut off, which doe disquiet you.

(GW) I wish those troublemakers would castrate themselves.

(LITV-TSP) I would that the ones causing you to doubt will cut themselves off.

(KJV) I would they were even cut off which trouble you.

(KJV+) I wouldG3785 they were evenG2532 cut offG609 which troubleG387 you.G5209


.

 

[BukiRob]

Scripture shows us that there were two laws of God and that one of these laws is valid for Christians to obey.

These two laws were the written Law of Moses which was carved on stone and the Law of Liberty of God which is spiritually written on people's hearts.

The written Law of Moses carved on stone was not the same law as the Law of Liberty of God which is spiritually written on people's hearts.

The spiritual Law of Liberty is so-called because it does not contain the oppressive written Law of Moses which was carved on stone.

The spirit of the OC Law of Moses is the same law as the NC Law of Liberty of God.


Scripture shows us exactly what is the spirit of the Law of Moses. It is the spirit of the Law of Moses (the Law of Liberty) which will always be required of all people, both Jew and non-Jew.

The spirit of the Law of Moses is that I must love the Lord my God with all my heart, and with all my soul, and with all my strength, and with all my mind; and my neighbor as myself. If I do these things that are commanded in the spirit of the Law of Moses (aka the Law of Liberty) until I die, I will then be approved to inherit eternal life.

Luke 10:25-28
And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? How do you read?” 27 And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.” 28 And he said to him, “You have answered right; do this, and you will live.” rsv

James 2:8-13
If you really fulfil the royal law, according to the scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well. 9 But if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it. 11 For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” said also, “Do not kill.” If you do not commit adultery but do kill, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. 13 For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy; yet mercy triumphs over judgment. rsv​

Christians are under the Law of Liberty of God. Christians are not under the written Law of Moses. God has spiritually written His Law of Liberty on all Christians' hearts. God does not give Christians the written Law of Moses which was carved on stone. 2 Corinthians 3

Christians are under the spirit of the Law of Moses, but they are not under the written Law of Moses carved on stone with all its sabbaths, new moons, and festivals requirements. Colossians 2:9-17

Even some of the Gentiles obeyed the spirit of the Law of Moses.

Romans 2:14-16
When Gentiles who have not the (written) law (of Moses) do by nature what the (spirit of) the law (of Moses) requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law (of Moses). 15 They show that what the (spirit of the) law (of Moses) requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. rsv​

The following is a prophecy for the Israelites about the spiritual Law of Liberty of God which will replace the unbearable yoke of the written Law of Moses carved on stone.

Jeremiah 31:33
But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. rsv
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Jesus Christ fulfilled this prophecy of Jeremiah. The following was written after Jesus' resurrection and ascension, but before 70 A.D. when Jerusalem, its temple, and the Jews living there were destroyed.

Hebrews 8:4-10
Now if he were on earth, he would not be a priest at all, since there are priests who offer gifts according to the law. 5 They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly sanctuary; for when Moses was about to erect the tent, he was instructed by God, saying, “See that you make everything according to the pattern which was shown you on the mountain.” 6 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry which is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion for a second.

8 For he finds fault with them when he says:

OLD COVENANT PROPHECY

“The days will come, says the Lord,
when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah;
9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers
on the day when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of the land of Egypt;
for they did not continue in my covenant,
and so I paid no heed to them, says the Lord.

10 This is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
after those days, says the Lord:
I will put my laws into their minds,
and write them on their hearts,
and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people." rsv
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Jesus Christ/God made a new covenant with the Israelites. The written Law of Moses carved on stone is not part of His New Covenant. The spirit of the Law of Moses is embodied in Jesus' New Covenant as the Law of Liberty of God. We are all under the NC now and so we must obey the Law of Liberty of God which is spiritually written on our hearts. Romans 10:12, Acts 15:8-10

James 2:8
If you really fulfil the royal law, according to the scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well. rsv
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The Israelites needed specific instructions and training on how to be obedient to God because they were a stiff-necked and rebellious people. The written Law of Moses was given to them because of their disobedience in the desert. They were given this written letter of the Law of Moses carved on stone because of their disobedience. Exodus 32:9, Acts 7:51

However, the spirit of the Law of Moses is shown in the following passage.

Matthew 19:16-19
And behold, one came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?” 17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” 18 He said to him, “Which?” And Jesus said, “You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, 19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” rsv
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Please note that Jesus does not require the Sabbath observance in His NC Law of Liberty. The Sabbath observance was required in the OC Law of Moses to train them in godliness, but the Sabbath observance is not required by Christians under Jesus' NC Law of Liberty.

Jews did become Christians, but Christians did not become Jews and so Christians were not required to keep the Sabbaths of the Jews. Christians are not bound and cannot be bound to the written Law of Moses carved on stone. The written Law of Moses does not apply to Christians. The spirit of the Law of Moses (Law of Liberty) written on each person's heart does apply to Christians.


A person may observe a personal sabbath/rest on any day of the week if he so chooses, but he is still obligated to assemble with Christians on the first day of the week for public worship to commemorate their spiritual rebirth.

Hebrews 10:23-26
Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful; 24 and let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near. 26 For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. rsv​

Romans 14:1-6
As for the man who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not for disputes over opinions. 2 One believes he may eat anything, while the weak man eats only vegetables. 3 Let not him who eats despise him who abstains, and let not him who abstains pass judgment on him who eats; for God has welcomed him. 4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Master is able to make him stand.
5 One man esteems one day as better than another, while another man esteems all days alike. Let every one be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. He also who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God; while he who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. rsv
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Christians are to be living stones/examples to others, by showing them by their holy example that they obey the Law of Liberty of God which was spiritually written upon their hearts. Their good example will cause people to desire to come to the knowledge of the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ and be saved. 1 Peter 2:4-5

2 Corinthians 3:2-4
You yourselves are our letter of recommendation, written on your hearts, to be known and read by all men; 3 and you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. 4 Such is the confidence that we have through Christ toward God. rsv​

The problem with your suggestion is that it directly conflicts with Prophecies in the OT about the covenant (Torah) being written on the heart and in the mind.

You rightly cite that the heart of Torah is loving G-d with your all and loving your neighbor as yourself. All of the prophets and Torah are founded on those 2. The entireity of the Torah is showing HOW to do those 2 things.

The idea that somehow there is a new or different law that is far more "liberal" is now in place is found NO WHERE in scripture.

Further more you are also ignoring G-d word where he expressly stays that he DOES NOTHING without first revealing it to his PROPHETS(plural) Even if I make allowance for you that Paul was a prophet his testimony is invalid as he has no witness to verify his testimony.

Your argument is so foundational in nature (the setting aside of Torah) that to suggest that Messiah would not have discussed this with his apostles in itself is absurd. Indeed what we see when Messiah DOES speak about the Torah is the antithesis of your position. He plainly stated "DO NOT THINK THAT I HAVE COME TO ABOLISH THE TORAH (LAW) or PROPHETS FOR I DID NOT COME TO ABOLISH THEM." Yeshua came teaching OBEDIENCE..... No where will you find the master teaching anything contrary to the keeping of the torah. NO WHERE.

 

[1John2:4]

The delusion comes from quoting from 1 John 2:4, but then ignoring 1 John 3:22-24.

It also comes from ignoring the Book of Galatians, especially chapter 4.

The only way modern day Judaisers can get their doctrine to work is by ignoring the scripture which destroys their doctrine.

How can you or anyone else call someone "anti-law" when the person just quoted 1 John 3:22-24?

The "strong delusion" is the effort to conform God's Word to a system the Apostle Paul said was wrong.

Why do you ignore Galatians 4:24-31 and 5:1-4?

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Galatians 5:12

(CJB) I wish the people who are bothering you would go the whole way and castrate themselves!

(ESV) I wish those who unsettle you would emasculate themselves!

(Geneva) Would to God they were euen cut off, which doe disquiet you.

(GW) I wish those troublemakers would castrate themselves.

(LITV-TSP) I would that the ones causing you to doubt will cut themselves off.

(KJV) I would they were even cut off which trouble you.

(KJV+) I wouldG3785 they were evenG2532 cut offG609 which troubleG387 you.G5209


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Well I do not believe Galatians is against the law of God because it would make Paul a false prophet according to Deuteronomy 13. I believe the issues Paul was having with the Galatians was certain people came in and started telling the new converts they had to be circumcised and follow the whole law in order to be counted as righteous. Paul knew that was not true because they were already receiving the spirit. (counted as righteous) He was very upset with Peter because Peter was not sitting with the Gentile converts and the Judiasers were causing separation. Paul was frustrated this whole thing was taking place, he was trying to prove they were all brothers, members of one family. The other issue was keeping the law to be saved, no one could ever keep the law to be saved, we are saved by Yeshua, however, once we are clean we don't go back to law breaking again. Galatians 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not!

Romans 3: 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. 29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

1Corrinthians 7: 18 Was anyone called while circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. Was anyone called while uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters

Romans 21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
7 Brethren I write no new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which you heard from the beginning. 8 Again, a new commandment I write to you, which thing is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away, and the true light is already shining.