If you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments

[BukiRob]

The Sabbath marked the end of the physical creation of the universe.
The Resurrection of Jesus Christ on the first day of the week is what made possible the spiritual re-creation of mankind. Therefore Christians gather together to celebrate/commemorate/worship on Sundays as commanded by Jesus to His apostles.

Of course, Yeshua/Jesus observed the Sabbath before He died. He was a Jew and He kept all the commands of the OC perfectly until He died.

Absolutely FALSE. Yeshua NEVER commanded the apostles to worship on another day. Utterly, completely, TOTALLY unscriptural.

But, after His resurrection, He commanded His followers to gather together to worship God on the first day of the week. We know this to be historical fact which I have documented in previous posts.
The Gentiles were not commanded to keep the Sabbath of the Jews.

Again this is NOT true. You have such a flawed understanding of what is going on in Acts 15 which is where 100% of this doctrine comes from. I've pointed out countless times that 99% of people try and force something in there that IS NOT HAPPENING. Acts 15:1 tells us what the debate that gentiles to day falsely teach Torah done away with.

In order to understand Acts 15 it is imperative that you understand the jewish perspective and AVOID interjecting hellenistic thinking (western/gentile)Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”

Acts 15 is NOT, NOT, NOT about Torah done away with yet teacher after teacher will tell you that is what James proclamation says (it doesn't) Acts 15 is a debate over WHO can be saved. Any other "forcing" of another issue is a FALSE doctrine. The Judaizers were saying ONLY the jew can be saved. The gentile must convert and become circumcised and THEN he can be saved.
Verses 2-18 are a display of the mosaic model of dispute resolution FOUND IN THE TORAH. On the mouth of 2 or more witnesses a matter is established. We have 3 witnesses. Peter, Paul and Barnabas all in agreement that Gentiles CAN indeed be saved for the Torah DOES NOT SAVE YESHUA SAVES.

Where GREAT error occurs in the false doctrine of Torah done away with is a perversion of James verdict as the false teachers do not deal truthfully with ALL of what James says. They rush to verse 19-20 and stop completely ignoring the REST of what James says. 19“Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, 20but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood. 21“For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

What is significant about the things they are to abstain from? Again, most believers completely miss what is going on here. ALL of the listed things to abstain from are ALL directly associated with pagan temple practices of idolatry worship. The ONLY sin that caused the Jew to be removed from the land. The drinking of blood, Temple prostitution and in the pagan world animal sacrifices were strangled. The meat was then later sold to the city residences after the temple sacrifices were made. James and the elders were insistent that gentile converts to messiah immediately divorce themselves from the pagan temples. His finishing thought in verse 21 is a DIRECT reference that the gentiles WERE to go to synagogue on Sabbath SPECIFICALLY to HEAR the Torah read so that would LEARN how they were to live.

In Jesus' kingdom, there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile or man or woman. Baptism is necessary for both Jewish converts and Gentile converts to the kingdom of God/Christianity and it this baptism as commanded in Matthew 28:18-20 which replaces the circumcision of the males only in the Jewish religion.

Circumcision was the gateway into Judaism and Baptism is the gateway into the kingdom of God/Church/Household of God.

Acts 15:4-10
When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they declared all that God had done with them. 5 But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up, and said, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to charge them to keep the law of Moses.”
6 The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. 7 And after there had been much debate, Peter rose and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 And God who knows the heart bore witness to them, giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us; 9 and he made no distinction between us and them, but cleansed their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why do you make trial of God by putting a yoke upon the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11 But we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.”rsv


Romans 10:12
For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all and bestows his riches upon all who call upon him. rsv

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. rsv

Colossians 3:11
Here there cannot be Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scyth′ian, slave, free man, but Christ is all, and in all. rsv
​

Why do you make trial of God by insisting that Christians keep the Sabbath? Instead of being saved by keeping the Law of Moses and its Sabbath laws, the Jewish converts to Christianity shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus just as all the Greek converts will be saved.

No one has EVER been saved by the Torah. Not from the very beginning. Why do you insist on perverting what I am saying? Torah is a matter of OBEDIENCE. The LORD rebuke you! Why is it that "believer's" ALWAYS rush to the false argument that salvation can ever come by Torah.

Jewish Christians became like Greek Christians in that the Sabbath laws for the Jews of the OC did not apply to them in the New Covenant/Kingdom of God/Church.

This is also untrue. The Church in Asia minor remained Torah observant and observed the Feast days clear up to the Byzantine invasion that eventually slaughter them. Rome issued death penalty decree's for anyone observing Sabbath.

 

[BukiRob]

But not Jesus' one Church which He founded upon Peter and His successors. Peter and his successors are given they keys of the kingdom of God. God prevents this one Church with Peter and his successors as its head from teaching error regarding faith and morals.

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.19“This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20“For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21“But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

You will note that in NUMEROUS passages of scripture the Torah is referred to as LIGHT and as a LAMP directing our path.....Men HATE the light. For it exposes the sin in us.

So Jan since you reject the Torah what is it you are practicing? As it says in vs 21 But he who practices the truth..... (Hint: Torah is called in numerous passages as TRUTH) Comes into the light.....

 

[BukiRob]

I understand Bob, I just don't see Sabbath commanded.
Its my opinion that Sabbath is shrouded in mystery. Hebrews talks about that mysterious day of rest, and I believe its quite possible that this is the Sabbath that God wants us to observe. I don't see Sabbath directly commanded anywhere and so I must assume that this Sabbath is not an actual day of the week. I don't think the Hebrews had a problem with the traditional OT Sabbath but I believe it may have been another Sabbath instead, and that what Hebrews is teaching, I think.

Hebrews 4:6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, 7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”e]'>[e]

8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. 10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.

Sabbath is not a peripheral issue. It is a FOUNDATIONAL, CENTERPIECE issue.

WE have people laying as a foundation doctrines based on "oral tradition" distortions of what Paul is actually saying or at the least is not CLEARLY articulated.

For example. The Father makes his view on sabbath crystal, unmistakably clear.

He says Exodus 20:8 Remember the Sabbath-day to sanctify it;

No ambiguity. No lack of clarity. Just straight up, DO THIS.

G-d also declares Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD does nothing Unless He reveals His secret counsel To His servants the prophets.

The problem those of you who reject Sabbath have is that #1 you can not name a single prophet who speaks clearly that Sabbath will end with a new covenant. What you DO find is both Isaiah and Jeremiah speaking of a new covenant that is written on the hearts and in the minds of the people. This is the new testament RENEWED covenant but it in NO WAY replaces or does away with the Torah because the Torah is LIGHT and Truth.

The bigger problem is there is ZERO clarity for the tradition of Sabbath done away with. Not a single unambiguous scriptural reference. Worse yet, this is such a foundational piece that Messiah SURLY would have told the Apostles. Yet you will not find a single passage of scripture that states this. What you WILL find is Messiah PLAINLY warning to NOT think that he came to abolish the Torah.

For YEARS I was like mainstream believers when it comes to Sabbath because well, that was what I had been taught. But when I read scripture what it plainly stated was in opposition to what I had been taught. After MANY years of this conflict one day I just prayed. Lord show me YOUR truth. Wherever it leads I will go..... when I stopped fighting what scripture said, the word really opened up.

When what men declare as truth is in conflict with what G-d clearly says you can chose to side with tradition, teachings of the "fathers" OR you can pray and believe what is in scripture.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

For YEARS I was like mainstream believers when it comes to Sabbath because well, that was what I had been taught. But when I read scripture what it plainly stated was in opposition to what I had been taught. After MANY years of this conflict one day I just prayed. Lord show me YOUR truth. Wherever it leads I will go..... when I stopped fighting what scripture said, the word really opened up.

Exactly.
and Amein.
when men change over from serving Yhwh and His Word by Faith in Jesus
to serving anyone else,
they mess up everything for themselves and for others(including their own children)
who they deceive with their lives and with their words.

 

[W2L]

Sabbath is not a peripheral issue. It is a FOUNDATIONAL, CENTERPIECE issue.

WE have people laying as a foundation doctrines based on "oral tradition" distortions of what Paul is actually saying or at the least is not CLEARLY articulated.

For example. The Father makes his view on sabbath crystal, unmistakably clear.

He says Exodus 20:8 Remember the Sabbath-day to sanctify it;

No ambiguity. No lack of clarity. Just straight up, DO THIS.

G-d also declares Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD does nothing Unless He reveals His secret counsel To His servants the prophets.

The problem those of you who reject Sabbath have is that #1 you can not name a single prophet who speaks clearly that Sabbath will end with a new covenant. What you DO find is both Isaiah and Jeremiah speaking of a new covenant that is written on the hearts and in the minds of the people. This is the new testament RENEWED covenant but it in NO WAY replaces or does away with the Torah because the Torah is LIGHT and Truth.

The bigger problem is there is ZERO clarity for the tradition of Sabbath done away with. Not a single unambiguous scriptural reference. Worse yet, this is such a foundational piece that Messiah SURLY would have told the Apostles. Yet you will not find a single passage of scripture that states this. What you WILL find is Messiah PLAINLY warning to NOT think that he came to abolish the Torah.

For YEARS I was like mainstream believers when it comes to Sabbath because well, that was what I had been taught. But when I read scripture what it plainly stated was in opposition to what I had been taught. After MANY years of this conflict one day I just prayed. Lord show me YOUR truth. Wherever it leads I will go..... when I stopped fighting what scripture said, the word really opened up.

When what men declare as truth is in conflict with what G-d clearly says you can chose to side with tradition, teachings of the "fathers" OR you can pray and believe what is in scripture.

What if I do like some folks in Romans 14, and I see every day as alike? I mean, what exactly did the Lord teach about Sabbath? He taught that is ok to do good on Sabbath. Therefore, if I can help my neighbor with some work on Sabbath, then that's ok right? A man is worth more that a sheep right? Also, if I can help my neighbor then surely I can help my own family too, and if I need to work on Sabbath to feed them then that's ok too right?

Isn't it the filthy love of money that God truly hates? If a man is working on Sabbath, or any other day for that matter, just to get rich, then isn't he missing the whole point of the Gospel doctrine?

If we truly observe Sabbath how the Lord did it in the scriptures then how can we go wrong? However this should be done every day shouldn't it? Why can I do good on one day but not another? Why should i cease from getting rich on one day but not another?

I see it this way, if we follow pauls example, by not seeking wealth but being content with simple things, and if we do good always, good for others and our own families, and we do this daily, then we need not worry about what day of the week it is.


Show me the error in my logic here, if you can

 

[BABerean2]

The bigger problem is there is ZERO clarity for the tradition of Sabbath done away with. Not a single unambiguous scriptural reference. Worse yet, this is such a foundational piece that Messiah SURLY would have told the Apostles. Yet you will not find a single passage of scripture that states this. What you WILL find is Messiah PLAINLY warning to NOT think that he came to abolish the Torah.

Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
(The law was added 430 years "after" the promise to Abraham. The law did not make the promise of no effect.)

Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
(The inheritance does not come through the law. It comes through the promise to Abraham.)

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
(The law was "added" because of transgressions "till" the seed (Christ) could come to whom the promise was made.)

........................................

He did not come to abolish the Law. He came to fulfill it.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Mar_15:38 And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.


....................................................
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
(The Sabbath was a shadow of Christ.)

.........................................

Act 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

Joh_20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

Mar_16:2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.

Mar_16:9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

Luk_24:1 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and

..................................................

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

.

 

[Travis93]

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.19“This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20“For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21“But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

You will note that in NUMEROUS passages of scripture the Torah is referred to as LIGHT and as a LAMP directing our path.....Men HATE the light. For it exposes the sin in us.

So Jan since you reject the Torah what is it you are practicing? As it says in vs 21 But he who practices the truth..... (Hint: Torah is called in numerous passages as TRUTH) Comes into the light.....

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Psalms 119:1 Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the Lord.
Psalms 119:151 Thou art near, O Lord; and all thy commandments are truth.
Proverbs 13:14 The law of the wise is a fountain of life, to depart from the snares of death.

John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
Psalms 119:105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

 

[1John2:4]

What if I do like some folks in Romans 14, and I see every day as alike? I mean, what exactly did the Lord teach about Sabbath? He taught that is ok to do good on Sabbath. Therefore, if I can help my neighbor with some work on Sabbath, then that's ok right? A man is worth more that a sheep right? Also, if I can help my neighbor then surely I can help my own family too, and if I need to work on Sabbath to feed them then that's ok too right?

Isn't it the filthy love of money that God truly hates? If a man is working on Sabbath, or any other day for that matter, just to get rich, then isn't he missing the whole point of the Gospel doctrine?

If we truly observe Sabbath how the Lord did it in the scriptures then how can we go wrong? However this should be done every day shouldn't it? Why can I do good on one day but not another? Why should i cease from getting rich on one day but not another?

I see it this way, if we follow pauls example, by not seeking wealth but being content with simple things, and if we do good always, good for others and our own families, and we do this daily, then we need not worry about what day of the week it is.


Show me the error in my logic here, if you can

If you truly seak God and His word and wish to honor Him on His Holy day and not have a rebellious heart against His Sabbaths I belive the spirit will help to guide you on your Sabbath does and don'ts that are not written in His word. However the things that are clearly written, God had already established He does not like, or Yeshua had established it is OK to do good. If you have an obedient heart the spirit will guide you

 

[1John2:4]

I honestly believe that God didn't require the Gentiles to observe Days, months and years, even Sabbath, that were given to the Jews under the OC. God sad he would do a new thing and that it would not be the same as the OC covenant that he made with Israel and their forefathers.

Please look at this verse you quoted in context I bolded what I wanted to point out. Little g gods, they were serving idols that is what little g gods is. Paul was not taking about Gods Holy Sabbaths. His word appointed times are not weak and begerly elements.

Galatians 4: 8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods. 9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years.11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.

 

[W2L]

Please look at this verse you quoted in context I bolded what I wanted to point out. Little g gods, they were serving idols that is what little g gods is. Paul was not taking about Gods Holy Sabbaths. His word appointed times are not weak and begerly elements.

Galatians 4: 8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods. 9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years.11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.

Yes I understand that is to argument. I still don't believe that God required such things, even Jewish days, moths and years.

 

[W2L]

If you truly seak God and His word and wish to honor Him on His Holy day and not have a rebellious heart against His Sabbaths I belive the spirit will help to guide you on your Sabbath does and don'ts that are not written in His word. However the things that are clearly written, God had already established He does not like, or Yeshua had established it is OK to do good. If you have an obedient heart the spirit will guide you

I was referring to keeping the Sabbath. Read my post again and show me how I was not referring to Sabbath. What part of my post could describe not keeping the Sabbath?

 

[Travis93]

Yes I understand that is to argument. I still don't believe that God required such things, even Jewish days, moths and years.

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Isaiah 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.

 

[W2L]

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Isaiah 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.

Ok, please answer this post as well. I'm seeking an answer for it bu haven't yet received one.

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...my-commandments.7913355/page-63#post-69951590

 

[Travis93]

What if I do like some folks in Romans 14, and I see every day as alike? I mean, what exactly did the Lord teach about Sabbath? He taught that is ok to do good on Sabbath. Therefore, if I can help my neighbor with some work on Sabbath, then that's ok right? A man is worth more that a sheep right? Also, if I can help my neighbor then surely I can help my own family too, and if I need to work on Sabbath to feed them then that's ok too right?

Isn't it the filthy love of money that God truly hates? If a man is working on Sabbath, or any other day for that matter, just to get rich, then isn't he missing the whole point of the Gospel doctrine?

If we truly observe Sabbath how the Lord did it in the scriptures then how can we go wrong? However this should be done every day shouldn't it? Why can I do good on one day but not another? Why should i cease from getting rich on one day but not another?

I see it this way, if we follow pauls example, by not seeking wealth but being content with simple things, and if we do good always, good for others and our own families, and we do this daily, then we need not worry about what day of the week it is.


Show me the error in my logic here, if you can

Romans 14 is talking about personal preferences, the day you as an individual esteem over others. The Sabbath isn't a man-made preference, it comes from God. Genesis 2:1-3 shows God sanctified this day from the first week of creation and Exodus 20:8-11 links its observance to creation. Similarly Paul talks about food preferences, but he's referring to people coming up with their own man made food distinctions (such as vegetarianism) not the God defined dietary laws of Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14. After all, faith establishes the law rather than voiding it (Romans 3:31) so any interpretation of his words should be from a pro-Torah perspective.

 

[W2L]

Romans 14 is talking about personal preferences, the day you as an individual esteem over others. The Sabbath isn't a man-made preference, it comes from God. Genesis 2:1-3 shows God sanctified this day from the first week of creation and Exodus 20:8-11 links its observance to creation. Similarly Paul talks about food preferences, but he's referring to people coming up with their own man made food distinctions (such as vegetarianism) not the God defined dietary laws of Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14. After all, faith establishes the law rather than voiding it (Romans 3:31) so any interpretation of his words should be from a pro-Torah perspective.

Ok, lets take Romans 14 out of the equation, for the sake of argument. Please answer the rest of my post. See how I describe observing the Sabbath? Is there something wrong with that description?

 

[Jan001]

2 Corinthians 3:7-11New International Version (NIV)
The Greater Glory of the New Covenant
7 Now if the ministry that brought death , which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness

It is the same LAW but in a different location: In the New Covenant it is not merely external - rather it is "written on the heart" -- that Law that Jeremiah and his readers would have known as the moral Law of God - Law that defines sin as even Romans 2:19-21 instructs -- and so also does 1 John 3:4 demand it.

If you want to obey the ministry of Moses which brought bondage and death, you can do this, but it will not save you.

Galatians 2:3-5
But even Titus, who was with me, was not compelled to be circumcised, though he was a Greek. 4 But because of false brethren secretly brought in, who slipped in to spy out our freedom which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage— 5 to them we did not yield submission even for a moment, that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you. rsv​

NEW Covenant "I WILL WRITE MY LAW on their heart and mind" -- Jeremiah 31, Hebrews 8.

Thus ends the fallacy - of "imaginary law to be made up latter - written on stone instead of the Commandments on stone as written by the finger of God".

It is a not a "different Law" in that location -- rather it is a different location for that Law as known to Jeremiah.

Galatians 4:21-31
Tell me, you who desire to be under law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave and one by a free woman. 23 But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, the son of the free woman through promise. 24 Now this is an allegory: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written,

“Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
break forth and shout, you who are not in travail;
for the children of the desolate one are many more
than the children of her that is married.”


28 Now we, brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now. 30 But what does the scripture say? “Cast out the slave and her son; for the son of the slave shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.” 31 So, brethren, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman. rsv
​

Paul states that now the disbelieving Jews are like Hagar and her son; a mother and her children in slavery to the First/Old Covenant/Law of Moses which was made obsolete by Jesus' New Covenant.

Hebrews 8:13
In speaking of a new covenant he treats the first as obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. rsv​

The ministry of death engraved in letters on stone (Law of Moses) is not the same law as the one from Jesus which He has written on hearts and minds (Law of Liberty) and gives us spiritual life.

Jesus' Law which is written on hearts and minds is called the Law of Liberty because it freed the Jews from the bondage of the Law of Moses.

James 1:25
But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does. nkjv​

James 2:12
So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. nkjv​

I will be judged by Jesus' law of liberty. I will not be judged by the Law of Moses.

 

[Jan001]

Don't forget Jesus said this about Moses/ Torah.
And those who Yhwh called and chose
DID NOT INSTITUTE a heirarchy but rather pointed others to Christ Jesus.
Those who Yhwh called and chose
AGREE WITH MOSES. (Jesus said plainly).

Jesus said if they listened to Moses, they would listen to Him(Jesus).
If they reject Moses, they reject Him(Jesus).

As for the false heiracrchy in false churches, Jesus says don't listen to them.

TEST BY SCRIPTURE, not by tradition of demons or of man.

Scripture is WHAT YOU ARE QUOTING. So then >
Listen to Scripture. Not to the false counterfeit men (who oppose Moses and oppose Scripture and oppose Jesus) you keep referencing.

I think you misunderstand what the writers of the Scriptures intended to teach.

 

[Jan001]

Did you NEVER READ what GOD SAYS "Christ is THE HEAD OF EVERY MAN"
1 Corinthians 11:3 But I want you to realize that the head of ...
1 Corinthians 11:3 Parallel Verses. New International Version But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, ...
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But I would have you know, that the head of every man is ...
1 Corinthians 11:3 KJV: But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ


No time ever does He say that any man is to be head of any other man.

So who then DISOBEYED GOD ? --- those who you trust. they lied to you. they made themselves head over men,
and thus instead of JESUS leading them, the enemy does.

Yes, the head of every Christian man is Christ. And this Christian man is head over his own wife and his own children.

However, in matters regarding the Christian faith, the hierarchy of Jesus' Church is head over this same man who is the head over his own wife and his own children. Luke 10:16

Hebrews 13:7, 17
Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God; consider the outcome of their life, and imitate their faith. ....17 Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Let them do this joyfully, and not sadly, for that would be of no advantage to you. rsv​

 

[BobRyan]

1 John 5
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

Mark 7
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

John 14:15 "IF you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments"

Rev 14:12 "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"

If you want to obey the ministry of Moses which brought bondage and death, you can do this, .

Your opposition to the teaching of Christ in Mark 7 "noted".

But not all Christians will choose to be at war against the teaching of Christ as Paul points out in Romans 8:4-9

 

[W2L]

If you want to obey the ministry of Moses which brought bondage and death, you can do this, but it will not save you.

Galatians 2:3-5
But even Titus, who was with me, was not compelled to be circumcised, though he was a Greek. 4 But because of false brethren secretly brought in, who slipped in to spy out our freedom which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage— 5 to them we did not yield submission even for a moment, that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you. rsv​

Galatians 4:21-31
Tell me, you who desire to be under law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave and one by a free woman. 23 But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, the son of the free woman through promise. 24 Now this is an allegory: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written,

“Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
break forth and shout, you who are not in travail;
for the children of the desolate one are many more
than the children of her that is married.”


28 Now we, brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now. 30 But what does the scripture say? “Cast out the slave and her son; for the son of the slave shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.” 31 So, brethren, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman. rsv
​

Paul states that now the disbelieving Jews are like Hagar and her son; a mother and her children in slavery to the First/Old Covenant/Law of Moses which was made obsolete by Jesus' New Covenant.

Hebrews 8:13
In speaking of a new covenant he treats the first as obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. rsv​

The ministry of death engraved in letters on stone (Law of Moses) is not the same law as the one from Jesus which He has written on hearts and minds (Law of Liberty) and gives us spiritual life.

Jesus' Law which is written on hearts and minds is called the Law of Liberty because it freed the Jews from the bondage of the Law of Moses.

James 1:25
But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does. nkjv​

James 2:12
So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. nkjv​

I will be judged by Jesus' law of liberty. I will not be judged by the Law of Moses.

The law of liberty you mention. This fits right into my post here::

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...my-commandments.7913355/page-63#post-69951590


James refers to the law of liberty and seems to suggest it is about loving others as our self. Jesus observed Sabbath by doing good deeds for others. Of course this can be done any day, not just one day a week. Its my assertion that if we observe the commands of Christ and his apostles, then we will automatically be observing Sabbath everyday, in the same way as Christ observed it. Jesus was a carpenter by trade, and I cannot say whether or not he worked as a carpenter on Sabbath. However, if Jesus loved others as himself which I assume he did, then he worked to feed his family, i.e. perhaps his mother, and to feed others who were needy, then how would working his trade as a carpenter be wrong, even on Sabbath? Therefore if he worked as a carpenter on Sabbath then his pay was used to help others, and therefore was a good deed. Its my assertion that a person can work on Sabbath, even at their job, and still fulfill the law as Christ taught it. However, this would mean that aperson must obey the law which says that we love others as our self.

If we observed these commands and examples found in these scriptures, we can (in theory) work 7 days a week and every day is observed like Christ observed Sabbath, in my opinion.

1 John 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?



See, this 2 Co scripture refers to the exodus story of gathering manna in the wilderness, and although the Jews did this only 6 days and rested on the 7th, Christ still did good deeds on Sabbath. Working and sharing all you have with others is not wrong and Christ did good on Sabbath. If we follow this acts tradition of sharing all things then we are never dishonoring Gods Sabbath, even if we work on Sabbath, not that I can see anyway. (in theory)

2 Co 8:13 Our desire is not that others might be relieved while you are hard pressed, but that there might be equality. 14 At the present time your plenty will supply what they need, so that in turn their plenty will supply what you need. The goal is equality, 15 as it is written: “The one who gathered much did not have too much, and the one who gathered little did not have too little.”

Acts 4:32 All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had. 33 With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all 34 that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35 and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need.