If you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments

[BobRyan]

27 And he said unto them, The Sabbath was made for mankind, and not mankind (MADE) for the Sabbath:

Scripture does not state that the Sabbath, as known to the Israelites/Jews, was made for all mankind. In context, Jesus is stating that the Sabbath was made for the Israelites/Jews

The Sabbath was "MADE" in Gen 2:1-3 and mankind was "MADE" in Gen 1 -- both in the same 7 day creation week.

Mark 2:27 speaking of the "MAKING" of both mankind AND the Sabbath.

Unless you want to claim that gentiles are not part of mankind -- I think you have a problem. As a gentile myself -- I prefer to be included in the term "mankind"

"From Sabbath to Sabbath shall all MANKIND come before Me to worship" Is 66:23 -- a concept known EVEN in the OT

 

[BobRyan]

[QUOTE="Jan001, post: 6896650
Recorded as a historical fact in the early Christians' writings, Christians were commanded by Jesus to imitate His resurrection and rest on the First Day of the week. [/QUOTE]

The earliest authoritative Christian writing - is the NT and it does NOT say that. In fact I think we all know it.

Jesus rested on the Sabbath - he did not rest on the day of His resurrection.

man made tradition is not a good substitute for an actual Bible text.

 

[Bob S]

27 And he said unto them, The Sabbath was made for mankind, and not mankind (MADE) for the Sabbath:


The Sabbath was "MADE" in Gen 2:1-3 and mankind was "MADE" in Gen 1 -- both in the same 7 day creation week.

Mark 2:27 speaking of the "MAKING" of both mankind AND the Sabbath.

Unless you want to claim that gentiles are not part of mankind -- I think you have a problem. As a gentile myself -- I prefer to be included in the term "mankind"

"From Sabbath to Sabbath shall all MANKIND come before Me to worship" Is 66:23 -- a concept known EVEN in the OT

Most of the renditions say that The Sabbath was made for man. Jesus said it and i believe it. The feast days and new moon celebrations were also made for man. The old covenant was made for man. If the Sabbath was made for all mankind it certainly was not a requirement for all mankind for we can see in all of history that only the Israelites were ever commanded to observe it. One can only assume Jesus was talking to a group of Jews and not any Gentiles. I state this because if the Jews thought that Jesus was changing the Sabbath day to include Gentiles He would have had a mob attack right then. The Jews were very particular just who could enter the Temple. Never were Gentiles allowed. Never did God command them to allow Gentiles into the congregation. They had to become Jews by circumcision in order to participate.

Now concerning Is 66. Why is it SDAs never finish the thought from Isaiah?
22 “As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,” declares the Lord, “so will your name and descendants endure. 23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the Lord. 24 “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”

I would imagine going out and looking at dead bodies on the Sabbath, which was to be a delight, would be just as hard to explain as verses in chapter 65 are. In 65 men will live to be 100 in the new earth. The SDA church teaches that there will not be marriage, so there would not be propagation. No new babies. Is 65 refutes that idea. Men will die and babies will be born. You have a lot of explaining to do my friend when you use Is 66 as a "proof text".

“See, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever
in what I will create,
for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight
and its people a joy.
19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem
and take delight in my people;
the sound of weeping and of crying
will be heard in it no more.


20 “Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years;
the one who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere child;
the one who fails to reach a hundred
will be considered accursed.
21 They will build houses and dwell in them;
they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 No longer will they build houses and others live in them,
or plant and others eat.
For as the days of a tree,
so will be the days of my people;
my chosen ones will long enjoy
the work of their hands.
23 They will not labor in vain,
nor will they bear children doomed to misfortune;
for they will be a people blessed by the Lord,
they and their descendants with them.
24 Before they call I will answer;
while they are still speaking I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb will feed together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox,
and dust will be the serpent’s food.
They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,”
says the Lord.

 

[BobRyan]

Most of the renditions say that The Sabbath was made for man. Jesus said it and i believe it.

And also "MAN shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God" Matt 4 - as spoken by Christ once again -- about "mankind".

Not the nonsensical "man -- yes but woman no" as I am sure we all agree.
Not the nonsensical "only Jews are men - gentiles are not part of man, mankind" -- as I am sure we all agree.

Just stating the obvious.

Mark 10:9 "What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder."

"let no JEW put asunder - but gentile Christians may create divorce as often as they please"?? No that would be nonsensical - as I am sure we all agree.

"Let no man put asunder - but women and children may authorize divorce as often as they please - just not men" ?? -- No that would be nonsensical - as i am sure we all agree.

Just stating the obvious.

 

[BobRyan]

The old covenant was made for man. If the Sabbath was made for all mankind it certainly was not a requirement for all mankind

Your text is once agan... "you".

The old covenant is of the form "obey and live" and it condemns all the lost -- to this very day. Because "all have sinned".

See Romans 3.

 

[BobRyan]

Is 66
22 “As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,” declares the Lord, “so will your name and descendants endure. 23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the Lord. 24 “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”

Just when "someone" was insisting that the OT had no statement about the Sabbath being binding on "mankind".

And in Is 66 this is applied to all eternity in the future long after the cross - the Sabbath STILL binding on ALL mankind.

 

[BobRyan]

Eph 6:2
2 “Honor your father and mother,” which is the first commandment with promise:

"FIRST Commandment" -- in "what unit" of LAW??

 

[Jan001]

27 And he said unto them, The Sabbath was made for mankind, and not mankind (MADE) for the Sabbath:


The Sabbath was "MADE" in Gen 2:1-3 and mankind was "MADE" in Gen 1 -- both in the same 7 day creation week.

Mark 2:27 speaking of the "MAKING" of both mankind AND the Sabbath.

Unless you want to claim that gentiles are not part of mankind -- I think you have a problem. As a gentile myself -- I prefer to be included in the term "mankind"

God "rested" on the Sabbath. Technically, God does not need to rest. God does not get tired.

The Sabbath was not a law commanded for any people until the Israelites were commanded to keep it when they were wandering in the desert. When there is no law requiring the Sabbath, there is no transgression/sin committed if a person does not keep the Sabbath.

Romans 4:13-15
For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression. 16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all nkjv

Romans 7:5-8
For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. 7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. nkjv
​

The Gentiles were never under the Sabbath laws. They could not possibly break the Sabbath law commandments because they were never commanded to keep them. A person cannot break a commandment that does not apply to him. The Sabbath commandments were irrelevant for a Gentile.

​

"From Sabbath to Sabbath shall all MANKIND come before Me to worship" Is 66:23 -- a concept known EVEN in the OT

From Sabbath to Sabbath is a Semitic idiom. In the context of this passage it means that after Jesus returns to earth, all people will continually and without interruption worship Him with every action of their whole mind, strength, heart, soul, and body.

 

[Jan001]

[QUOTE="Jan001, post: 6896650
Recorded as a historical fact in the early Christians' writings, Christians were commanded by Jesus to imitate His resurrection and rest on the First Day of the week.

The earliest authoritative Christian writing - is the NT and it does NOT say that. In fact I think we all know it.

I think most people who claim to be Christians know that the OT Sabbath is irrelevant for NT Christians.

According to Scripture, which few of the many OT laws other than the great commandment and the second which is like it must the Greek converts to Christianity keep?

Acts 15:23-29
They wrote this letter by them:
The apostles, the elders, and the brethren,
To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia:
Greetings.
24 Since we have heard that some [Jews] who went out from us have troubled you [Gentiles] with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law” —to whom we gave no such commandment— 25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell. nkjv​

Please note that the Sabbath laws are not commanded. What exactly is commanded?

1. Abstain from foods and other things offered to idols.
2. Abstain from drinking the blood of animals.
3. Abstain from eating things that have been strangled.
4. Abstain from participating in sexual immorality.

Galatians 5:1-3
Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. nkjv​

The Sabbath laws, dietary laws, circumcision laws, and many other OT Law of Moses' laws were a burden/yoke of bondage for the Israelites/Jews. These OT laws are definitely not commanded for NT Christians.

Why do you keep insisting that Christian non-Jews keep the Sabbath laws when Scripture does not state that they commanded them to keep the Sabbath laws? Instead, the apostles commanded the Christian non-Jews to:

1. Abstain from foods and other things offered to idols.
2. Abstain from drinking the blood of animals.
3. Abstain from eating things that have been strangled.
4. Abstain from participating in sexual immorality.

 

[Bob S]

I think most people who claim to be Christians know that the OT Sabbath is irrelevant for NT Christians.

According to Scripture, which few of the many OT laws other than the great commandment and the second which is like it must the Greek converts to Christianity keep?

Acts 15:23-29
They wrote this letter by them:
The apostles, the elders, and the brethren,
To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia:
Greetings.
24 Since we have heard that some [Jews] who went out from us have troubled you [Gentiles] with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law” —to whom we gave no such commandment— 25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell. nkjv​

Please note that the Sabbath laws are not commanded. What exactly is commanded?

1. Abstain from foods and other things offered to idols.
2. Abstain from drinking the blood of animals.
3. Abstain from eating things that have been strangled.
4. Abstain from participating in sexual immorality.

Galatians 5:1-3
Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. nkjv​

The Sabbath laws, dietary laws, circumcision laws, and many other OT Law of Moses' laws were a burden/yoke of bondage for the Israelites/Jews. These OT laws are definitely not commanded for NT Christians.

Why do you keep insisting that Christian non-Jews keep the Sabbath laws when Scripture does not state that they commanded them to keep the Sabbath laws? Instead, the apostles commanded the Christian non-Jews to:

1. Abstain from foods and other things offered to idols.
2. Abstain from drinking the blood of animals.
3. Abstain from eating things that have been strangled.
4. Abstain from participating in sexual immorality.

Great post Jan. Why would Jesus give up the throne in Heaven to come to Earth, endure all that He did, die for our sins and then put us right back into the same covenant that his special people couldn't overcome? OY!

SDAs' prophet tells the flock that they must stand before the throne in the last days without Jesus. In other words, they have to have attain a perfect character. This is ludicrous. If man can become perfect without the shed blood covering us, Jesus came for naught. Did you realize that Adventists are the ones that are holding up the second coming of the Lord. Yep, they have to attain perfection before Jesus will return. I guess it is our job to help them to attain this perfection thing because it has been 180 years since their launching and no one yet has come up to the plate.

 

[BobRyan]

I think most people who claim to be Christians know that the OT Sabbath is irrelevant for NT Christians.

until they read

In Eph 6:2 - "honor your father and mother for this is the first commandment with a promise" -- what Law - what unit of Law is it to be found that 'honor your father and mother" is the FIRST commandment with a promise??

And ask themselves "First commandment where??"


AND Then they read Acts 13, Acts 17, Acts 18 where even GENTILES are attending "Sabbath after Sabbath" Gospel sermons - such that in Acts 15 this "Everybody is in church on Sabbath" idea is mentioned by James as part of the "solution" to the problem of circumcision for gentiles.

Acts 15
21 For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

And they ask themselves "how does that attendance by all Christians every Sabbath - solve the Acts 15 question?"

 

[BobRyan]

God "rested" on the Sabbath. Technically, God does not need to rest. God does not get tired.

The Sabbath was not a law commanded for any people until the Israelites were commanded to keep it when they were wandering in the desert.
.

Not true at all -

Ex 20:11 points to it existing in Genesis 2:1-3 a point that D.L. Moody admits, and the Westminster Confession of Faith admits and the Baptist Confession of Faith admits - and even the Catholic church admits that the Sabbath Commandment is for mankind as one of the TEN Commandments - the unchangable LAW of God.

A point Christ also affirms about the LAW of God in Mark 7:6-13 when he condemns man-made traditions that try to edit/downsize/change that law..

 

[Bob S]

Not true at all -

Ex 20:11 points to it existing in Genesis 2:1-3 a point that D.L. Moody admits, and the Westminster Confession of Faith admits and the Baptist Confession of Faith admits - and even the Catholic church admits that the Sabbath Commandment is for mankind as one of the TEN Commandments - the unchangable LAW of God.

A point Christ also affirms about the LAW of God in Mark 7:6-13 when he condemns man-made traditions that try to edit/downsize/change that law..

Notice how Bob is always quoting us from Babylon to make his points. Oh yes, he uses Eph 6 and some other Adventist "proof texts". Eph 6:2 concerning how children relate to parents is supposed to be a key verse to convince Christians they have to observe the Sabbath. Why isn't Jesus statement in Matt 5 about an eye for an eye the key verse for Christians having to keep Torah law?
Morality is instilled into God's children at conception. Sabbath is a ritual law, a ritual law along with all the other ritual laws found in the Torah. It was given to the Israelite nation in remembrance of their release from Egyptian bondage and not given to any other nation. Deut 5 There is absolutely no historical record of any peoples observing the 7th day Sabbath before The Israelites were released from bondage. It took over seven weeks for the Israelites to escape to Sinai. If, as SDA claim, the Sabbath was instituted for all mankind the first week of creation, why didn't God stop the Israelites the first week of the journey out of Egypt and worship His supposedly established Holy day. It was four weeks out of Egypt before He finally instituted the day of remembrance. http://www.bible.ca/archeology/bible-archeology-exodus-route-travel-times-distances-days.htm

God had the Israelites to go in circles around Jericho for 8 days in a row even after Sabbath became a Holy day. David's guards guarded him 7 days a week. If the Sabbath was so important why would God allow them to break it?

In Christ, Bob

 

[bugkiller]

27 And he said unto them, The Sabbath was made for mankind, and not mankind (MADE) for the Sabbath:


The Sabbath was "MADE" in Gen 2:1-3 and mankind was "MADE" in Gen 1 -- both in the same 7 day creation week.

Mark 2:27 speaking of the "MAKING" of both mankind AND the Sabbath.

Unless you want to claim that gentiles are not part of mankind -- I think you have a problem. As a gentile myself -- I prefer to be included in the term "mankind"

"From Sabbath to Sabbath shall all MANKIND come before Me to worship" Is 66:23 -- a concept known EVEN in the OT

Gentiles aren't the part of mankind Jesus was talking about. Just read the law.

bugkiller

 

[Bob S]

Gentiles aren't the part of mankind Jesus was talking about. Just read the law.

bugkiller

Yep, if it were made for ALL mankind it surely was never enacted to ALL mankind. I wonder why? The only possible answer is your answer.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Yep, if it were made for ALL mankind it surely was never enacted to ALL mankind. I wonder why? The only possible answer is your answer.

I don't think Noah ever stopped working on the Sabbath day and God certainly didn't have it so Noah could stop working on the Sabbath with all the animals on board that he and his family had to keep track of.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
27 And he said unto them, The Sabbath was made for mankind, and not mankind (MADE) for the Sabbath:


The Sabbath was "MADE" in Gen 2:1-3 and mankind was "MADE" in Gen 1 -- both in the same 7 day creation week.

Mark 2:27 speaking of the "MAKING" of both mankind AND the Sabbath.

Unless you want to claim that gentiles are not part of mankind -- I think you have a problem. As a gentile myself -- I prefer to be included in the term "mankind"

"From Sabbath to Sabbath shall all MANKIND come before Me to worship" Is 66:23 -- a concept known EVEN in the OT

No matter what the Bible says - some people misread it as "The Sabbath was made for PART of mankind".
or perhaps "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall PART of mankind come before Me to worship"

[QUOTE="bugkiller, post: 68980158, member: 376777"]Gentiles aren't the part of mankind Jesus was talking about. Just read the law.
bugkiller[/QUOTE]

I prefer the actual text.

 

[BobRyan]

I don't think Noah ever stopped working on the Sabbath day

Can we quote you on that - as our authority on the point?

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
Not true at all -

Ex 20:11 points to it existing in Genesis 2:1-3 a point that D.L. Moody admits, and the Westminster Confession of Faith admits and the Baptist Confession of Faith admits - and even the Catholic church admits that the Sabbath Commandment is for mankind as one of the TEN Commandments - the unchangable LAW of God.

A point Christ also affirms about the LAW of God in Mark 7:6-13 when he condemns man-made traditions that try to edit/downsize/change that law..
==================================

And of course by "Mark 7:6-13" -- I mean


Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Notice how Bob is always quoting us from Babylon to make his points.

The Bible can be your friend - look at the texts referenced - respond to the points made.

 

[BobRyan]

Jan001 said: ↑
I think most people who claim to be Christians know that the OT Sabbath is irrelevant for NT Christians.

until they read Eph 6:2 - "honor your father and mother for this is the first commandment with a promise" -- what Law - what unit of Law is it to be found that 'honor your father and mother" is the FIRST commandment with a promise??

And ask themselves "First commandment where??"


AND Then they read Acts 13, Acts 17, Acts 18 where even GENTILES are attending "Sabbath after Sabbath" Gospel sermons - such that in Acts 15 this "Everybody is in church on Sabbath" idea is mentioned by James as part of the "solution" to the problem of circumcision for gentiles.

Acts 15
21 For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

And they ask themselves "how does that attendance by all Christians every Sabbath - solve the Acts 15 question?"

=====================================

Not everyone will allow themselves to ask or answer those two questions -- of course.

Oh yes, he uses Eph 6 and some other Adventist "proof texts". Eph 6:2 concerning how children relate to parents is supposed to be a key verse to convince Christians

still can't answer those two questions??
or wont answer them - ?

Well in the mean time, the unbiased objective readers are free to read the two questions above -- and answer them.