If you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments

[BABerean2]

crucial context - that you skipped.

Act 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

Act 15:2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

Act 15:3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.

Act 15:4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.

Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

Act 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.

Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Act 15:12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

Act 15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:

Act 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

Act 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

Act 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

Act 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

Act 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Act 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
(Since times of old, there were Jews who read the law of Moses in the synagogues every Sabbath Day. You ignore the verse above this verse which shows the recommendation of the early Church leaders and instead focus on what the Jews had done for many years instead.)

Act 15:22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:

Act 15:23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:

Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

Act 15:25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,

Act 15:26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Act 15:27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.

Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Anyone who takes the focus off of what the Church leaders are saying and instead highlights what the Jews are doing instead, must be desperate to prove his Sabbath doctrine.
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[Poster0]

Are they any Bible verses that SAY they had communion every day? The only record we have for breaking bread is on Sunday.

That tradition of breaking bread could easily refer to communion. They broke bread every day in the book of acts, not just on Sunday. Where is this record of them breaking bread only on Sunday? It doesn't exist. Besides that, we don't actually know how they took communion back then, and all we have is what our specific church does, but that's not evidence of how the first Church did things. Listen, believe it or not, Sunday is a man made tradition that came much later, after the apostles died. We have been given liberty from the law which includes the necessity to observe holy days, and I don't see why the apostle paul would go through all he did in order to teach the gentiles liberty, only to establish Sunday as a holy day. This notion that Sunday is the Lords special holy day just doesn't add up with scripture and actually seems to contradict what Paul was trying to teach the gentile churches. I think this Sunday tradition was something that carnal men added much later, after the true apostles all died.

WE have been given liberty, not new holy days.

 

[Poster0]

Nothing wrong with Sunday service, but we should not forsake Pauls teaching on liberty. We should not treat Sunday as anything special because then we only forsake the liberty that Paul teaches us.

 

[Meowzltov]

They broke bread every day in the book of acts

Please be so kind as to provide a verse or two. Thanks!

 

[Poster0]

One more thing. I don't think we should treat "sacraments" with legalistic standards either. Truth is that we have no idea how communion was actually done in the beginning. All we have is tradition of our individual churches. The Lord wanted his disciples to remember him, his death, and eventually his resurrection, but he surely didn't want us to treat it with legalistic standards, or to be divided over how to practice it, not in my opinion. Paul teaches us to examine ourselves, and I assume he means that we should examine ourselves to see if we are truly living by faith by following love and following holiness which is the act of sowing spiritual things rather than carnal things. That is the only requirement that is taught in scripture. I myself don't even believe that sacraments are necessary, I believe that if we remember the Lord, and examine our self, then we do well. Many people take communion legalistically, they think they are damned if they don't take bread and wine, but i don't believe that, and that's not what Christ is teaching in John 6, or any other scripture. They also believe that communion will cleanse them of sin, yet that is not the purpose the Lords supper.

 

[Poster0]

Please be so kind as to provide a verse or two. Thanks!

You first, please show your scripture.

 

[Meowzltov]

Nothing wrong with Sunday service, but we should not forsake Pauls teaching on liberty. We should not treat Sunday as anything special because then we only forsake the liberty that Paul teaches us.

That's not what Paul taught.

 

[Meowzltov]

You first, please show your scripture.

That they received communion on Sunday? Acts 20:7. This is, I believe, the ONLY verse that tells us which day they actually broke bread. Your turn. Please show scripture to support your claim that they broke bread every day of the week.

 

[Poster0]

That they received communion on Sunday? Acts 20:7. This is, I believe, the ONLY verse that tells us which day they actually broke bread. Your turn. Please show scripture to support your claim that they broke bread every day of the week.

Is this really necessary? I'm sure you're aware of this scripture. You have a biased opinion because you hold onto Catholic teaching. Truth is however that your evidence is not evidence at all.


ACts 2:42 They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43 Everyone was filled with awe at the many wonders and signs performed by the apostles. 44 All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45 They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need. 46 Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

 

[Poster0]

That's not what Paul taught.

Yes it is. Paul said we have liberty, and he instructs us not to use it to indulge in flesh, but to love and serve each other instead. Obviously Paul is referring to liberty from the law, which includes holy days.

 

[True Science]

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[BABerean2]

That said they clearly kept Holy Days.

How does the keeping of Holy Days relate to what Paul said in Galatians chapter 4 ?


Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Gal 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.

Gal 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

 

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[True Science]

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[BobRyan]

NO, you have that wrong. The consensus is that 8 of the letters are fraudulent, and seven of them are AUTHENTIC.

so them MORE than 50% are frauds - that everyone agrees with.

As for doubting the "remainder" --


D. Philip Schaff rejects all of Ignatius' letters as spurious:

Philip Schaff acknowledges that there has been a broad and long standing view that all the Ignatian letters are forgeries, and leaves the matter for the reader to decide for himself. Schaff does clearly reject all the letters as forgeries, as can be seen in his comments:

1. "The whole story of Ignatius is more legendary than real, and his writings are subject to grave suspicion of fraudulent interpolation." (History of the Christian Church, Philip Shaff, Vol 2, ch 4)
2. "But I am content to leave the whole matter, without comment, to the minds of Christians of whatever school and to their independent conclusions." Introductory Note To The Epistle Of Ignatius To The Ephesians.
3. "The reader may judge, by comparison for himself, which of these is to be accepted as genuine" Introductory Note To The Epistle Of Ignatius To The Ephesians.

..

Before this date, however, there had not been wanting some who refused to acknowledge the authenticity of these Epistles in either of the recensions in which they were then known to exist. By far the most learned and elaborate work maintaining this position was that of Daillé (or Dallaeus), published in 1666. This drew forth in reply the celebrated Vindiciae of Bishop Pearson, which appeared in 1672. It was generally supposed that this latter work had established on an immoveable foundation the genuineness of the shorter form of the Ignatian Epistles; and, as we have stated above, this was the conclusion almost universally accepted down to our own day. The only considerable exception to this concurrence was presented by Whiston, who laboured to maintain in his Primitive Christianity Revived (1711) the superior claims of the longer recension of the Epistles, apparently influenced in doing so by the support which he thought they furnished to the kind of Arianism which he had adopted.

But although the shorter form of the Ignatian letters had been generally accepted in preference to the longer, there was still a pretty prevalent opinion among scholars, that even it could not be regarded as absolutely free from interpolations, or as of undoubted authenticity. Thus said Lardner, in his Credibility of the Gospel History (1743): "have carefully compared the two editions, and am very well satisfied, upon that comparison, that the larger are an interpolation of the smaller, and not the smaller an epitome or abridgment of the larger.... But whether the smaller themselves are the genuine writings of Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, is a question that has been much disputed, and has employed the pens of the ablest critics. And whatever positiveness some may have shown on either side, I must own I have found it a very difficult question."

This expression of uncertainty was repeated in substance by Jortin (1751), Mosheim (1755), Griesbach (1768), Rosenmüller (1795), Neander (1826), and many others; some going so far as to deny that we have any authentic remains of Ignatius at all, while others, though admitting the seven shorter letters as being probably his, yet strongly suspected that they were not free from interpolation. Upon the whole, however, the shorter recension was, until recently, accepted without much opposition, and chiefly in dependence on the work of Bishop Pearson above mentioned, as exhibiting the genuine form of the Epistles of Ignatius.

But a totally different aspect was given to the question by the discovery of a Syriac version of three of these Epistles among the mss. procured from the monastery of St. Mary Deipara, in the desert of Nitria, in Egypt. In the years 1838, 1839, and again in 1842, Archdeacon Tattam visited that monastery, and succeeded in obtaining for the English Government a vast number of ancient Syriac manuscripts. On these being deposited in the British Museum, the late Dr. Cureton, who then had charge of the Syriac department, discovered among them, first, the Epistle to Polycarp, and then again, the same Epistle, with those to the Ephesians and to the Romans, in two other volumes of manuscripts.

 

[BobRyan]

Peter already warned us about Paul's letters. I don't know why people don't listen to it. Well I guess I'm pretty sure I know why a lot of people don't.

Paul warned about forgeries in 2 Thess 2:1-2

 

[BABerean2]

Peter already warned us about Paul's letters. I don't know why people don't listen to it. Well I guess I'm pretty sure I know why a lot of people don't.

In Galatians chapter 4 Paul compares the Sinai covenant to one of bondage, that should be cast out.
Gal. 4:24-31

Was he was trying to keep the focus on Christ as the fulfillment of the Abrahamic Promise found in Gal. chapter 3?


Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
(The Sinai covenant added 430 years later, could not disannul the Abrahamic Promise.)

Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

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[True Science]

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