If you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments

[klutedavid]

In Scripture, Old Testament and New Testament
Torah means Torah, Yhwh's Commandments/Words, not "love" that most all the world hasn't got a clue about anyway(they neither obey Yhwh, follow Jesus, honor Torah, NOR love).

All through history and the last 30 years especially in the united states,
"love" oooy goooy icky feelings and emotions
has ruined what were once good assemblies (since 1991 this has been observed world wide).....

It is better to have law abiding citizens INSTEAD of lawlessness.

LOVE obeys the LAW, sin doesn't . Sin is lawlessness.

Hello Jeff.

Not sure that I would agree with what said Jeff.

ruined what were once good assemblies (since 1991 this has been observed world wide)

I seriously doubt whether any churches in history, correctly understood the scripture. I doubt whether
any assembly in history has been able to follow the text. If you do some research on what different
church movements believe, you would be horrified.

Nearly all of them follow some traditional teaching, errors handed down from one generation to the next.
Even Bible translators continue to make these same mistakes. In nearly all cases, conservative, traditional,
and usually incorrect.

I dare say your assemblies were already corrupted and way before 1991.

 

[Travis93]

Yes Bob, it is incredible and obvious that circumcision is now void, you cannot be under the law without circumcision.
You fully agree then that God has annulled the commandment concerning circumcision.

Genesis 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
1 Chronicles 16:16 Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac;
1 Chronicles 16:17 And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant,

Circumcision cannot be annulled, it would make God a liar.
Ezekiel 44:9 Thus saith the Lord God; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel.
Isaiah 52:1 Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

it is incredible and obvious that circumcision is now void, you cannot be under the law without circumcision.
You fully agree then that God has annulled the commandment concerning circumcision.

This isn't even good english.

A lot of people in the world are circumcised who don't even know Yhwh's Word nor are in any way under His Law.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I dare say your assemblies were already corrupted and way before 1991.

Not my assemblies. (quote me if I said otherwise)

For many, how could they be corrupt way before 1991 if they didn't even exist before 1991 ?

 

[klutedavid]

Genesis 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
1 Chronicles 16:16 Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac;
1 Chronicles 16:17 And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant,

Circumcision cannot be annulled, it would make God a liar.
Ezekiel 44:9 Thus saith the Lord God; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel.
Isaiah 52:1 Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.

Hello Travis.

The word 'everlasting' is a faulty translation, the Hebrew word 'olam' does not mean
everlasting. From memory the ancient Hebrew means to the horizon and beyond.

God made the covenant with Abraham and his descendants, that is what the text
states. God did not establish this covenant with any other Gentile, or even Gentile
nation. I agree that circumcision cannot be annulled, certainly not if you are under
the law. Circumcision is the law.

When God is addressing the descendants of Abraham, He is not talking to you
Travis.

 

[klutedavid]

This isn't even good english.

A lot of people in the world are circumcised who don't even know Yhwh's Word nor are in any way under His Law.

Hello Jeff.

You criticize my grammar, how about you correctly apply grammar yourself.

Correct Jeff, the tradition of circumcision is widespread. So is obedience to various
laws within the O.T, obedience to laws without believing in God. Circumcision is a
commandment, if you wish to be under the law, then you must be circumcised.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

You criticize my grammar, how about you correctly apply grammar yourself.

Because the point wasn't about bad grandma,
it was
that many people are circumcised without being condemned by the Law(not as regards circumcision anyway) preventing them from being saved by faith in Jesus.
Likewise,
there are many people who honor(obey) Torah, who are not being condemned by Torah. See? They are saved same as anyone else - by faith in Jesus.

 

[klutedavid]

Not my assemblies. (quote me if I said otherwise)

For many, how could they be corrupt way before 1991 if they didn't even exist before 1991 ?

Hello Jeff.

Nearly every church in the world has borrowed earlier dogma, from earlier church
movements. The entire reformation movement itself is a break away movement
from the Catholic church. There are many similarities between these two organizations.

Any church that came into existence after 1991, usually has a traceable pedigree.
The reformation movement was not free from error, hence, the continuous generation
over time, of new church movements.

 

[klutedavid]

Because the point wasn't about bad grandma,
it was
that many people are circumcised without being condemned by the Law(not as regards circumcision anyway) preventing them from being saved by faith in Jesus.
Likewise,
there are many people who honor(obey) Torah, who are not being condemned by Torah. See? They are saved same as anyone else - by faith in Jesus.

Hello Jeff.

I would disagree with you, under the law, and as the scripture declares, under the
condemnation of the law.

You can be circumcised at birth and not be under the law, that is a traditional
physical act your talking about. Though if you attempt to place yourself under the law,
then you must be circumcised. That is what the scripture tells us Jeff, that is not my
opinion.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Hello Jeff.

Nearly every church in the world has borrowed earlier dogma, from earlier church
movements. The entire reformation movement itself is a break away movement
from the Catholic church. There are many similarities between these two organizations.

Any church that came into existence after 1991, usually has a traceable pedigree.
The reformation movement was not free from error, hence, the continuous generation
over time, of new church movements.

I don't know all that.
In 1991 a spiritually defiled and demonically inspired(source and results) outpouring took place that was observed by believers around the world, with a lot of very recent or new assemblies just raised up(started)(with no known connection to older churches) and also ruining a lot of fellowships/assemblies that previously had looked "okay" to those who had been part of them or watched or visited them previously.

I don't remember how we got on this topic, btw.

 

[klutedavid]

I don't know all that.
In 1991 a spiritually defiled and demonically inspired(source and results) outpouring took place that was observed by believers around the world, with a lot of very recent or new assemblies just raised up(started)(with no known connection to older churches) and also ruining a lot of fellowships/assemblies that previously had looked "okay" to those who had been part of them or watched or visited them previously.

I don't remember how we got on this topic, btw.

Hello Jeff.

Anyone can start a church, where in the scripture does it forbade
starting a church?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Hello Jeff.

Anyone can start a church, where in the scripture does it forbade
starting a church?

? No idea. Why ? (not sure I agree, but so what?)

 

[klutedavid]

I don't know all that.
In 1991 a spiritually defiled and demonically inspired(source and results) outpouring took place that was observed by believers around the world, with a lot of very recent or new assemblies just raised up(started)(with no known connection to older churches) and also ruining a lot of fellowships/assemblies that previously had looked "okay" to those who had been part of them or watched or visited them previously.

I don't remember how we got on this topic, btw.

Hello Jeff.

If you believe that all church movements before 1991 were backed by
God, then your supporting the Mormans, Jehovah's witnesses, seventh
day adventists, puritans, christadelphians, e.t.c.

 

[klutedavid]

? No idea. Why ? (not sure I agree, but so what?)

Hello Jeff.

The Corinthian church that Paul wrote his letter to, had factions within it.
We also know that there were already alternate church organizations
in the second century. This problem developed at the very start of Christianity.

Our nature drives us into church groups of like minded people, that is why
and how churches develop. One or two verses may be sufficient to draw a line in
the sand. For example the 'Baptist' movement was really developed over
the idea of whether infants should be baptized.

 

[bugkiller]

Because the point wasn't about bad grandma,
it was
that many people are circumcised without being condemned by the Law(not as regards circumcision anyway) preventing them from being saved by faith in Jesus.
Likewise,
there are many people who honor(obey) Torah, who are not being condemned by Torah. See? They are saved same as anyone else - by faith in Jesus.

The reason for circumcision is the real issue. Circumcision by gentle parents for reasons other than religious have no bearing on one's ability to be saved (redeemed and possess eternal life).

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

BobRyan said: ↑
The Ten Commandments are included in the LAW of God - included in the LAW of Jer 31:31-33 "This is the NEW Covenant ...I will write My LAWs on their heart and on their mind" . Jeremiah knew of that Law - so also did his readers.



In actual Bible study there is eisegesis "just making up whatever story you like" and there is "exegesis" looking at the details in the text and the intent of the author - for his readers.

Try quoting "you" less - and looking at the Bible more.

In this case the question of exegesis was mentioned - which is how Jeremiah and his readers would have understood the term "My LAW". would they imagine to themselves that the LAW that God spoke on Sinai and wrote on stone and "Added no more" according to scripture -- was "excluded"?? if so you have not come up with the creative "story" for how to imagine such a thing. So you merely "quote you".

Your argument that they would take Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself" and Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart" as Laws to be used to delete God's spoken Word in Ex 20 where it then says in Deut 5 "And He added no more" -- is pure fiction. So you merely 'quote you'.

And we both know it.

Most impressively - so also do your own pro-sunday scholars know it. They know that the Ten Commandments were not deleted by Lev 19:18 or Deut 6:5 in either the OT or the NT.

Nor is there a NT text saying 'these two laws delete the OT, delete scripture, delete the commandments of God.."

Eph 6:2 the text you keep religiously avoiding "Honor your father and Mother - which is the FIRST commandment with a promise" -- FIRST commandment WHERE??/ in Lev 19:18???? No!! how about in Deut 6:5??/ No !!

Incredibly obvious.

All of us can see it.

And you keep ignoring this detail while "quoting you" to come up with a story that is pleasing to some - though not the Bible??

hint: Even your own pro-sunday scholars know enough not to do such things.

(Instead of opposing the teaching of Christ in Mark 7:6-13 -- try a few days of embracing it)

So since only you are permitted to use words other than Scripture, why don't you take your own advice and stop "quoting you"? Why can't you allow the SCripture speak for itself?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

The Ten Commandments are included in the LAW of God - included in the LAW of Jer 31:31-33 "This is the NEW Covenant ...I will write My LAWs on their heart and on their mind" . Jeremiah knew of that Law - so also did his readers.

The passage self define and disallows for your eisegesis.

hence Ephesians 6:2 as I am sure you would agree.

Which brings us back to the post you just quoted ..

================================
this one.



"Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4

Bob why won't you use the full sentence here from I JN 3:4? Is it because it changes your eisegesis?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

You take the entire OT and throw it out the window and you chase after "doing right in your own eyes" We are CALLED to walk as Messiah walked. That is plainly stated no matter how hard you try and distort what 1 John is saying, that IS what he is saying. Modern Gentile Christians vainly attempt to make the Apostles anything but Jews....

We are not called to observe the law.

bugkiller

 

[Bob S]

If you refuse to acknowledge the truth,
because you were programmed that way,
what do you expect ? How could Jesus Himself help ? His hands are tied,right?

Well not really, the Holy Spirit is there prodding. We plant the seeds and He does the rest. I never give up on people. God has a way.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
The Ten Commandments are included in the LAW of God - included in the LAW of Jer 31:31-33 "This is the NEW Covenant ...I will write My LAWs on their heart and on their mind" . Jeremiah knew of that Law - so also did his readers.

Hello Bob.

God wrote the law of the Lord on the hearts of the believers, through the
gifts of the Holy Spirit. Love is the law etched into every Christian heart,
love is the goal of all Christian instruction. Not the command to not steal. .

In actual Bible study there is eisegesis "just making up whatever story you like" and there is "exegesis" looking at the details in the text and the intent of the author - for his readers.

Try quoting "you" less - and looking at the Bible more.

In this case the question of exegesis was mentioned - which is how Jeremiah and his readers would have understood the term "My LAW". would they imagine to themselves that the LAW that God spoke on Sinai and wrote on stone and "Added no more" according to scripture -- was "excluded"?? if so you have not come up with the creative "story" for how to imagine such a thing. So you merely "quote you".

Your argument that they would take Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself" and Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart" as Laws to be used to delete God's spoken Word in Ex 20 where it then says in Deut 5 "And He added no more" -- is pure fiction. So you merely 'quote you'.

And we both know it.

Most impressively - so also do your own pro-sunday scholars know it. They know that the Ten Commandments were not deleted by Lev 19:18 or Deut 6:5 in either the OT or the NT.

Nor is there a NT text saying 'these two laws delete the OT, delete scripture, delete the commandments of God.."
...
hint: Even your own pro-sunday scholars know enough not to do such things.

(Instead of opposing the teaching of Christ in Mark 7:6-13 -- try a few days of embracing it)

Hello Bob.
Nice comment Bob, I don't advocate creative writing when discussing the scripture either. Exegesis
raises one of the most important considerations when reading any text. Who is the intended audience?
Jew or Gentile, if you ignore the audience that the letter was written to, then your reading of the
scripture will be erroneous.

True. And we can see that the New Covenant language in Jer 31:31-33 most certainly had to include Jews. This is irrefutable.

It is also irrefutable that just as your own pro-sunday scholars admit - those Jews would not have imagined that God's Ten Commandments had been deleted from that LAW which the NEW Covenant says is written on the heart and mind.

And as we see in Hebrews 8:6-10 that NEW Covenant language remains unchanged - asis - both NT and OT regarding the LAW of God. And it is hard to believe that the book of Hebrews is meant to "Exclude Jews".

So far we have irrefutable Bible facts that fully refute the wild speculation that the LAW of God written on the heart under the NEW Covenant must most certainly exclude God's TEN Commandments.

We cannot know whether Jeremiah understood what he wrote. We cannot assume that he did

Good eisegesis. Poor exegesis to simply "imagine" that Jeremiah and his readers did not know what the LAW of God was so they simply write "We have no clue what the LAW of God is - but whatever it is - it is written on heart and mind under the New Covenant".

That would be a wild-swing of eisegesis in directly violation of the text - that even your own pro-sunday scholars would not take seriously - let alone any other bible students on the planet that did not reject God's law.

the text is silent about this point Bob.

No text - not one single text in all of scripture - claims that "I know what I am talking about" has to be added to every statement in scripture or else the reader is to assume they can make up whatever they want because the author and primary readers were all clueless.

What we DO have is the "exceptions to the rule" that ARE noted. Instead of the rule being "we are all clueless unless we add to every sentence -- and we know what we are talking about" -- the Daniel 8 examples shows that when the are really baffled by simply say so in the text - that they have no one to explain it to them.

In actual scripture - it is the exact opposite of the wild assumption you make.

So in the first part of your response you go immediately to the most extreme form of eisegesis known to mankind right after affirming the point that this would be the worst thing one can do.

I find your logic 'illusive' at that point.