If you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments

[bugkiller]

"The law" means the law of Moses altogether, not just the ten commandments. Here you can see the terms law of the LORD and law of Moses used interchangeably.
Luke 2:22-24 And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord; (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.

You can also see it here, with James using "law" and "Moses" interchangeably:
Acts 21:20-21 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

The law of Moses is also "the word of God" and the "commandment of God" as shown here:
Mark 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
Mark 7:10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
Mark 7:11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
Mark 7:12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Thanks. Wonder if BobRyan will agree.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

No its actually not... but then not a surprise that you would take this position.

Yes it is. Just read the entire verse. There is this neat 4 letter word "also" those who usually quote only the last half of the verse fuse to accept. Besides Rom 5:13 says that sin was before the law and Gal 3:19 says the law was added because of transgression (sin). Sin is not only and always transgression of the law. the law did not invents sin.

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

Hello Bob.

How do you understand the following verse, the one you quoted?

"Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4

In this verse there is the phrase 'the law', do you understand this phrase
to mean the whole law, or do you read this as the ten commandments?

The Ten Commandments are included in the LAW of God - included in the LAW of Jer 31:31-33 "This is the NEW Covenant ...I will write My LAWs on their heart and on their mind" . Jeremiah knew of that Law - so also did his readers.

hence Ephesians 6:2 as I am sure you would agree.

Which brings us back to the post you just quoted ..

================================
this one.

Binding used as a verb. It is a legal obligation to observe Sabbath.
.

"Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4
Through the LAW comes the knowledge of Sin - Romans 3... it defines what sin is.

"Legal obligation" as in "Do not take God's name in vain" - and if you do -- well that is "sin".

James 2
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not commit murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.

Those at war against God's Law are at war with the idea that God's law defines what sin is -

Romans 2
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

And yet without this fundamental principle - there is no point to the Gospel

 

[Bob S]

Sabbath was a part of Creation itself. Secondly, if you read the OT you will discover that the Torah is called LIFE. It is called THE WAY and it is called TRUTH.

The WORD (TORAH) became Flesh and dwelt among us.... is what we are told... Yeshua verifies this when he declares: I am the WAY, the TRUTH, and the Life....

If one studies scripture you quickly see that the PHYSICAL often represents a type or shadow of the spiritual.... Adultery can and DID occur in heaven it was spiritual Adultery and were told in Rev 12 that as a result of this action, a third part of heaven was cast out of heaven and to the earth....

Just as I wrote, people are programed to believe other than the real truth. At least you know that I know you are wrong. There is no use discussing the point any further. Live by the law and see if you do any better than Israel did.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Just as I wrote, people are programed to believe other than the real truth. At least you know that I know you are wrong. There is no use discussing the point any further. Live by the law and see if you do any better than Israel did.

If you refuse to acknowledge the truth,
because you were programmed that way,
what do you expect ? How could Jesus Himself help ? His hands are tied,right?

 

[bugkiller]

Sabbath was a part of Creation itself.

There is no passage of Scripture to back this up.

Secondly, if you read the OT you will discover that the Torah is called LIFE. It is called THE WAY and it is called TRUTH.

No because Jesus claims - 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. JN 14.

The WORD (TORAH) became Flesh and dwelt among us.... is what we are told... Yeshua verifies this when he declares: I am the WAY, the TRUTH, and the Life....

Sadly for you the use of the word Logos dies not indicate the law.

If one studies scripture you quickly see that the PHYSICAL often represents a type or shadow of the spiritual.... Adultery can and DID occur in heaven it was spiritual Adultery and were told in Rev 12 that as a result of this action, a third part of heaven was cast out of heaven and to the earth....

why are you trying to get others to commit spiritual adultery? We are espoused to Jesus and not the law or god the Father. Please read Rom 7 and Rev 21:9.

bugkiller

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

We do not know whether Adam and Eve practiced the Sabbath rest day.

Really now?
Their Heavenly Father, Almighty Sovereign Creator did.
And they talked directly to Him.....

Think Dad would keep that a secret from His first children/creation ?
and then tell His grand kids and future descendants (so to speak)...

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

We are espoused to Jesus

Not exactly , probably, the way you mean it,
but at least do as Jesus did.

Or does the head of the body NOT direct the body !?

 

[bugkiller]

We do know that.
God rested on the seventh day of creation. The word "rested" here comes from the Hebrew word shabath (Strong's 7673), which can mean "to keep or to observe the Sabbath." This word is the root for the word shabbath (Strong's 7676), which is translated as "Sabbath" throughout the Old Testament.

No it doesn't. Here is the first definition of the word from Strong's -

1. to cease, desist, rest
   1. (Qal)
   2. to cease
      
      
   3. to rest, desist (from labour)
      
2. (Niphal) to cease
   
   
3. (Hiphil)
   1. to cause to cease, put an end to
      
      
   2. to exterminate, destroy
      
      
   3. to cause to desist from
      
      
   4. to remove
      
      
   5. to cause to fail
      
   • (Qal) to keep or observe the Sabbath

As you can see the word is not defined as keeping or observing the Sabbath. The word is translated 47 times as cease. It is never translated as keeping the Sabbath. Rest is something one does or may do at anytime not exclusively on the 7th day of the week.

God rested upon, or kept, the Sabbath on this first seventh day, not because He physically tired after all His creation work, but to set an example for Adam, Eve, and all humanity after them to do the same.

God does not keep the Sabbath. Gen 2 is not about a repeating weekly event.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Hello Rob.

We do not know whether Adam and Eve practiced the Sabbath rest day.

We do know that the first mention of a Sabbath rest day, that Israel observed
occurs in the book of Exodus. In fact Rob, Israel was commanded to observe
the Sabbath at Mt Sinai. There is an earlier mention of Israel enforcing the
Sabbath day before the law was given at Mt Sinai, though this occurrence
is very close to the Mt Sinai event.

The law is essentially the written commandments of God to Israel. There is
no evidence that any other nation on earth, other than Israel, practiced the
Sabbath rest day. If you know of the mention of a Sabbath day in the laws
of any other nation, feel free to correct me.

You made this point.

To cease labor (Shabbat), does not mean 'to observe the sabbath', if I cease labor on
a given day of the week, say Sunday, that does not mean that I am observing
Sunday each week, as a day of rest. There is a subtle difference between Shabbat
and Sabbath, shabbat does not mean Sabbath.

Correct. shabath is a verb and shabbath is a noun .

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Really now?
Their Heavenly Father, Almighty Sovereign Creator did.
And they talked directly to Him.....

Think Dad would keep that a secret from His first children/creation ?
and then tell His grand kids and future descendants (so to speak)...

So where's your proof Adam kept the Sabbath especially the day after he was created?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Not exactly , probably, the way you mean it,
but at least do as Jesus did.

Or does the head of the body NOT direct the body !?

Christians are the Church (bride of the Lamb {Jesus}) in Rev 21.

bugkiller

 

[klutedavid]

The Ten Commandments are included in the LAW of God - included in the LAW of Jer 31:31-33 "This is the NEW Covenant ...I will write My LAWs on their heart and on their mind" . Jeremiah knew of that Law - so also did his readers.

Hello Bob.

God wrote the law of the Lord on the hearts of the believers, through the
gifts of the Holy Spirit. Love is the law etched into every Christian heart,
love is the goal of all Christian instruction. Not the command to not steal.
Someone who loves people would not take something from them, they give
everything.

What is it Bob that you do not understand about love?

If you don't have love then you have nothing. If you do not steal and your
heart is stone cold, what use is the law? The Gospel is about loving others,
Bob, the Gospel is all about others and not about ourselves. You seriously
need to crucify your flesh and start walking in the Spirit.

Walking in the Spirit is not about not stealing, walking in the Spirit is the
complete opposite, giving Bob, giving everything to others. Generosity,
caring, empathy, Bob you should have a life overflowing with love. Not
a life of boasting that you have never stolen anything.

Paul boasted about his legal observance, but Paul regarded that as rubbish
compared to knowing Jesus Christ.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Love is the law etched into every Christian heart

In Scripture, Old Testament and New Testament
Torah means Torah, Yhwh's Commandments/Words, not "love" that most all the world hasn't got a clue about anyway(they neither obey Yhwh, follow Jesus, honor Torah, NOR love).

All through history and the last 30 years especially in the united states,
"love" oooy goooy icky feelings and emotions
has ruined what were once good assemblies (since 1991 this has been observed world wide).....

It is better to have law abiding citizens INSTEAD of lawlessness.

LOVE obeys the LAW, sin doesn't . Sin is lawlessness.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
The Ten Commandments are included in the LAW of God - included in the LAW of Jer 31:31-33 "This is the NEW Covenant ...I will write My LAWs on their heart and on their mind" . Jeremiah knew of that Law - so also did his readers.

Hello Bob.

God wrote the law of the Lord on the hearts of the believers, through the
gifts of the Holy Spirit. Love is the law etched into every Christian heart,
love is the goal of all Christian instruction. Not the command to not steal. .

In actual Bible study there is eisegesis "just making up whatever story you like" and there is "exegesis" looking at the details in the text and the intent of the author - for his readers.

Try quoting "you" less - and looking at the Bible more.

In this case the question of exegesis was mentioned - which is how Jeremiah and his readers would have understood the term "My LAW". would they imagine to themselves that the LAW that God spoke on Sinai and wrote on stone and "Added no more" according to scripture -- was "excluded"?? if so you have not come up with the creative "story" for how to imagine such a thing. So you merely "quote you".

Your argument that they would take Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself" and Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart" as Laws to be used to delete God's spoken Word in Ex 20 where it then says in Deut 5 "And He added no more" -- is pure fiction. So you merely 'quote you'.

And we both know it.

Most impressively - so also do your own pro-sunday scholars know it. They know that the Ten Commandments were not deleted by Lev 19:18 or Deut 6:5 in either the OT or the NT.

Nor is there a NT text saying 'these two laws delete the OT, delete scripture, delete the commandments of God.."

Eph 6:2 the text you keep religiously avoiding "Honor your father and Mother - which is the FIRST commandment with a promise" -- FIRST commandment WHERE??/ in Lev 19:18???? No!! how about in Deut 6:5??/ No !!

Incredibly obvious.

All of us can see it.

And you keep ignoring this detail while "quoting you" to come up with a story that is pleasing to some - though not the Bible??

hint: Even your own pro-sunday scholars know enough not to do such things.

(Instead of opposing the teaching of Christ in Mark 7:6-13 -- try a few days of embracing it)

 

[Travis93]

Psalms 119:1 Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the Lord.
Psalms 119:142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.
Proverbs 13:14 The law of the wise is a fountain of life, to depart from the snares of death.

 

[BobRyan]

Hello Bob.

How do you understand the following verse, the one you quoted?

"Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4

In this verse there is the phrase 'the law', do you understand this phrase
to mean the whole law, or do you read this as the ten commandments?

The Ten Commandments are included in the LAW of God - included in the LAW of Jer 31:31-33 "This is the NEW Covenant ...I will write My LAWs on their heart and on their mind" . Jeremiah knew of that Law - so also did his readers.

hence Ephesians 6:2 as I am sure you would agree.

Which brings us back to the post you just quoted ..

================================
this one.

Binding used as a verb. It is a legal obligation to observe Sabbath.
.

"Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4
Through the LAW comes the knowledge of Sin - Romans 3... it defines what sin is.

"Legal obligation" as in "Do not take God's name in vain" - and if you do -- well that is "sin".

James 2
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not commit murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.

Those at war against God's Law are at war with the idea that God's law defines what sin is -

Romans 2
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

And yet without this fundamental principle - there is no point to the Gospel

Hello Bob.

God wrote the law of the Lord on the hearts of the believers, through the
gifts of the Holy Spirit. Love is the law etched into every Christian heart,
love is the goal of all Christian instruction. Not the command to not steal.

Until you read the Bible and observe the rules of exegesis - and no longer insert mere preference under the model of eisegesis.

First rule - to admit to the the intent of the author as he states it and gives the instruction to his readers.

The Ten Commandments are included in the LAW of God - included in the LAW of Jer 31:31-33 "This is the NEW Covenant ...I will write My LAWs on their heart and on their mind" . Jeremiah knew of that Law - so also did his readers.

This is irrefutable.

Jeremiah did not declare that the Lev 19:18 law to love your neighbor as yourself had deleted the Law of God.

Jeremiah did not declare that the Deut 6:5 law to love God with all your heart had deleted the Law of God.

And we both know it.

Someone who loves people would not take something from them, they give
everything.

Indeed and someone who Loves God will choose obedience over rebellion against the Word of God "Love Me AND KEEP My Commandments" Ex 20:6, John 14:15.

Both OT and NT.

What is it that you do not understand about love?
If you don't have love then you have nothing.

John says we show that we love God by keeping His Commandments "THIS IS the Love of God - that we KEEP His Commanmdnets" 1 John 5:2-4

Thus Paul can write Ephesians 6:2 though you cannot bring yourself to discuss this oft repeated point in the posts so far.

 

[BukiRob]

Just as I wrote, people are programed to believe other than the real truth. At least you know that I know you are wrong. There is no use discussing the point any further. Live by the law and see if you do any better than Israel did.

You take the entire OT and throw it out the window and you chase after "doing right in your own eyes" We are CALLED to walk as Messiah walked. That is plainly stated no matter how hard you try and distort what 1 John is saying, that IS what he is saying. Modern Gentile Christians vainly attempt to make the Apostles anything but Jews....

 

[Travis93]

You take the entire OT and throw it out the window and you chase after "doing right in your own eyes" We are CALLED to walk as Messiah walked. That is plainly stated no matter how hard you try and distort what 1 John is saying, that IS what he is saying. Modern Gentile Christians vainly attempt to make the Apostles anything but Jews....

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

I guess they think Genesis-Malachi aren't scripture or words that come from the mouth of God. Actually, they are even forced to throw out the gospels because Jesus directly commands us to obey those who preach Moses.
Matthew 23:2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Matthew 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

 

[klutedavid]

BobRyan said: ↑
The Ten Commandments are included in the LAW of God - included in the LAW of Jer 31:31-33 "This is the NEW Covenant ...I will write My LAWs on their heart and on their mind" . Jeremiah knew of that Law - so also did his readers.



In actual Bible study there is eisegesis "just making up whatever story you like" and there is "exegesis" looking at the details in the text and the intent of the author - for his readers.

Try quoting "you" less - and looking at the Bible more.

In this case the question of exegesis was mentioned - which is how Jeremiah and his readers would have understood the term "My LAW". would they imagine to themselves that the LAW that God spoke on Sinai and wrote on stone and "Added no more" according to scripture -- was "excluded"?? if so you have not come up with the creative "story" for how to imagine such a thing. So you merely "quote you".

Your argument that they would take Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself" and Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart" as Laws to be used to delete God's spoken Word in Ex 20 where it then says in Deut 5 "And He added no more" -- is pure fiction. So you merely 'quote you'.

And we both know it.

Most impressively - so also do your own pro-sunday scholars know it. They know that the Ten Commandments were not deleted by Lev 19:18 or Deut 6:5 in either the OT or the NT.

Nor is there a NT text saying 'these two laws delete the OT, delete scripture, delete the commandments of God.."

Eph 6:2 the text you keep religiously avoiding "Honor your father and Mother - which is the FIRST commandment with a promise" -- FIRST commandment WHERE??/ in Lev 19:18???? No!! how about in Deut 6:5??/ No !!

Incredibly obvious.

All of us can see it.

And you keep ignoring this detail while "quoting you" to come up with a story that is pleasing to some - though not the Bible??

hint: Even your own pro-sunday scholars know enough not to do such things.

(Instead of opposing the teaching of Christ in Mark 7:6-13 -- try a few days of embracing it)

Hello Bob.

Sorry for the delay, I had a few other matters to attend to. Sometime I cannot respond the same day.

In actual Bible study there is eisegesis "just making up whatever story you like" and there is "exegesis"
looking at the details in the text and the intent of the author - for his readers.

Nice comment Bob, I don't advocate creative writing when discussing the scripture either. Exegesis
raises one of the most important considerations when reading any text. Who is the intended audience?
Jew or Gentile, if you ignore the audience that the letter was written to, then your reading of the
scripture will be erroneous.

In this case the question of exegesis was mentioned - which is how Jeremiah and his readers would
have understood the term "My LAW"...Your argument that they would take Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor
as yourself" and Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart" as Laws to be used to delete God's spoken Word
in Ex 20 where it then says in Deut 5 "And He added no more" -- is pure fiction.

We cannot know whether Jeremiah understood what he wrote. We cannot assume that he did,
the text is silent about this point Bob.

Actually that is not what I am saying Bob, I have never said to delete any of these commandments.
I could never be accused of saying 'love your neighbor as yourself' (Deut 6:5) either, that is the law.

John 13
34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you.

You have the NEW commandment right there Bob, this is not an old commandment and I will explain why.
The NEW commandment tells us to love others as Jesus loved us, not as we love ourselves. Anyone who
quotes the Leviticus commandment to love your neighbor, misunderstands the NEW Commandment.
There is an astronomical difference between the love of Christ for us and self love, never equate these.

I repeat Bob, I never said to delete any commandments, I have said that we are under a New Covenant.
You need to admit that God does indeed change, God annulled hundreds of laws, i.e., commandments.
You do not need to be circumcised and there is no doubt that circumcision was a very important commandment.
The law is established as a guideline for understanding what sin is, we most certainly do not ignore the law.
But we are not under the law, otherwise, we would be circumcised and still in fact be under the whole law.

Most impressively - so also do your own pro-sunday scholars know it. They know that the Ten Commandments
were not deleted by Lev 19:18 or Deut 6:5 in either the OT or the NT.

I am not a follower of the Reformation movement, nor am I 'pro-sunday' advocate. I am not even a protestant Bob.

Nor is there a NT text saying 'these two laws delete the OT, delete scripture, delete the commandments of God.."

Once again I have never said to delete any text, if we deleted the commandments, then we would fail to
understand that we must be circumcised in order to be under the law.

Eph 6:2 the text you keep religiously avoiding "Honor your father and Mother - which is the
FIRST commandment with a promise" -- FIRST commandment WHERE??/ in Lev 19:18???? No!!
how about in Deut 6:5??/ No !!

I fully endorse this commandment, though I would exceed this commandment and suggest you love your parents.
You cannot claim to just honor your parents and love everyone else. Love your parents Bob.

Incredibly obvious.

Yes Bob, it is incredible and obvious that circumcision is now void, you cannot be under the law without circumcision.
You fully agree then that God has annulled the commandment concerning circumcision.

All of us can see it.

I disagree Bob, no one reads the text and understands the text, everyone massages the text and chooses
certain verses to support their theology. A never ending tradition of distorting the text, Paul warned us that
this would happen. Bob, do not delete the commandment to be circumcised.

And you keep ignoring this detail while "quoting you" to come up with a story that is pleasing to some -
though not the Bible??

You cannot be under the law because you are not circumcised, Bob, you have deleted the commandment
to be circumcised. Do you believe that you have the authority to delete this commandment, Bob?

hint: Even your own pro-sunday scholars know enough not to do such things.

I do not support Reformation theology or any other tradition of men.

(Instead of opposing the teaching of Christ in Mark 7:6-13 -- try a few days of embracing it)

I am not circumcised Bob,hence, I cannot be under the law.