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Tell me YOUR interpretation of Romans 11:28
As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs
Abraham''s faith alone before the cross did not put him under Grace. This was the case for all Israelites living during the old covenant age. That is why they waited in their graves for the Messiah to come and to put them under Grace.
The grace you talk about isn't the same grace offered by God the Father thru His only begotten Son Jesus the Christ.
Your proof text of Mat 17 doesn't prove salvation nor that those were saved as in redeemed because no one was redeemed at that time.
bugkiller
No sir it isn't. You promote the law (is grace) and preached to Abraham contrary to Moses. The Gospel preached to Abraham was the promise of a Redeemer and he believed.
bugkiller
Get real dude.That is not true.
Moses and Elijah stand WITH Christ in glorified form in Matt 17 - BEFORE the Cross - while it is Peter, James and John that were face-down in the dust.
It is Enoch, Seth, Noah, Moses and Abraham in Heb 11 - hold up before NT saints - as the models that we are to follow.
There is no such thing as Enoch, Moses, Elijah -- in heaven but "not through grace" -- that would be "another gospel".
"The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7
"Noah found GRACE in the eyes of the LORD" - Gen 6:8
OT - Righteousness by Faith.
Heb 11
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
"The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7
"Noah found GRACE in the eyes of the LORD" - Gen 6:8
Moses and Elijah - stand WITH Christ in Matt 17 - in glorified form - while the disciples are face down in the dust.
Your argument is "with the text"
"I will write My LAW on their heart and mind" Heb 8:6-10
"The Saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
I want the Bible AND the Words IN the Bible.
That is not true.
Moses and Elijah stand WITH Christ in glorified form in Matt 17 - BEFORE the Cross - while it is Peter, James and John that were face-down in the dust.
It is Enoch, Seth, Noah, Moses and Abraham in Heb 11 - hold up before NT saints - as the models that we are to follow.
There is no such thing as Enoch, Moses, Elijah -- in heaven but "not through grace" -- that would be "another gospel".
"The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7
"Noah found GRACE in the eyes of the LORD" - Gen 6:8
OT - Righteousness by Faith.
Heb 11
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
"The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7
"Noah found GRACE in the eyes of the LORD" - Gen 6:8
Moses and Elijah - stand WITH Christ in Matt 17 - in glorified form - while the disciples are face down in the dust.
Your argument is "with the text"
"I will write My LAW on their heart and mind" Heb 8:6-10
"The Saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
I want the Bible AND the Words IN the Bible.
Matthew 17:9
9And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
Non sequitor. I didn't say that the entire world is saved. Please reply to what I actually said:"God so LOVED the World that He GAVE His only begotten Son" -- does not mean "the entire world is saved" though - the entire world is Loved by God so much that God gave his Son "to be the Savior of the WORLD" 1 John 4.
Tell me YOUR interpretation of Romans 11:28
As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs
Non sequitor.
I didn't say that the entire world is saved.
Abraham''s faith alone before the cross did not put him under Grace. This was the case for all Israelites living during the old covenant age. That is why they waited in their graves for the Messiah to come and to put them under Grace.
The grace you talk about isn't the same grace offered by God the Father thru His only begotten Son Jesus the Christ.
Your proof text of Mat 17 doesn't prove salvation nor that those were saved as in redeemed because no one was redeemed at that time.
bugkiller
No sir it isn't. You promote the law (is grace) and preached to Abraham contrary to Moses. The Gospel preached to Abraham was the promise of a Redeemer and he believed.
bugkiller
It was a future vision that showed the glorified Christ and with him Moses and Elijah who are symbols of the two anointed.
It doesn't compare. In your verse, it specifies that those who believe in him (although it doesn't say "only them") shall not perish but have everlasting life. In MY verse, it says that those who are enemies of the gospel are the elect (although again it doesn't say "only those people").I have just told you that "loved" means the same thing in both places (Where the two places in this example includes Romans 11:28) -- we call that "exegesis".
I wish you would really make up your mind what you want. You disregard way to much of the Bible to say you want it.That is not true.
Moses and Elijah stand WITH Christ in glorified form in Matt 17 - BEFORE the Cross - while it is Peter, James and John that were face-down in the dust.
It is Enoch, Seth, Noah, Moses and Abraham in Heb 11 - hold up before NT saints - as the models that we are to follow.
There is no such thing as Enoch, Moses, Elijah -- in heaven but "not through grace" -- that would be "another gospel".
"The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7
"Noah found GRACE in the eyes of the LORD" - Gen 6:8
OT - Righteousness by Faith.
Heb 11
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
"The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7
"Noah found GRACE in the eyes of the LORD" - Gen 6:8
Moses and Elijah - stand WITH Christ in Matt 17 - in glorified form - while the disciples are face down in the dust.
Your argument is "with the text"
"I will write My LAW on their heart and mind" Heb 8:6-10
"The Saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
I want the Bible AND the Words IN the Bible.
On the contrary - Moses and Elijah were there in person. Before the Cross. Nothing at all in it of "Future" mentioned. Christ was really there - so also Moses and Elijah.
There is no such thing in all of the Bible as a real person standing next to you and then 2 other people show up - but they are not really there.
That would be extreme eisegesis to insert such a novel idea into the text. Not exegesis at all.
Tell me YOUR interpretation of Romans 11:28
As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs
Non sequitor.
I didn't say that the entire world is saved.
It doesn't compare. In your verse, it specifies that those who believe in him (although it doesn't say "only them") shall not perish but have everlasting life.
In MY verse, it says that those who are enemies of the gospel are the elect (although again it doesn't say "only those people").
I wish you would really make up your mind what you want. You disregard way to much of the Bible to say you want it.
bugkiller
That is not true.
Moses and Elijah stand WITH Christ in glorified form in Matt 17 - BEFORE the Cross - while it is Peter, James and John that were face-down in the dust.
It is Enoch, Seth, Noah, Moses and Abraham in Heb 11 - hold up before NT saints - as the models that we are to follow.
There is no such thing as Enoch, Moses, Elijah -- in heaven but "not through grace" -- that would be "another gospel".
"The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7
"Noah found GRACE in the eyes of the LORD" - Gen 6:8
OT - Righteousness by Faith.
Heb 11
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
"The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7
"Noah found GRACE in the eyes of the LORD" - Gen 6:8
Moses and Elijah - stand WITH Christ in Matt 17 - in glorified form - while the disciples are face down in the dust.
John 1:17
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
Romans 1:2-6
Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3“Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”? 4And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
Hebrews 11:39
These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised,
John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man.
When you repeat on saying that Noah found Grace in the eyes of the Lord (Gen 6:8), you are confusing the definition of Grace.
Yes Noah found favour in the eyes of the Lord, but Noah was not offered Grace before the cross of Christ
Absolutely not! If Grace was poured upon those who were by faith obedient to God, then it would not be Grace
Moses was saved in the OT - and stands in glorified form with Christ in Matt 17 - fully saved... pre-cross.
Elijah was saved in the OT - and stands in glorified form with Christ in Matt 17 - fully saved... pre-cross.
Enoch was saved in the OT - was taken directly to heaven while still living - fully saved... pre-cross.
All the saints of Heb 11 - saved in the OT - fully saved... pre-cross.
But most of the saints then - and the saints after the cross... died and did not then experience the resurrection that will happen at the 2nd coming. So even though they were all saved during their own life times - they all wait for the 2nd coming.
1 Timothy 2:3-6
3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.
Daniel 12:13
But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.
OT - Righteousness by Faith.
Heb 11
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
"The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7
"Noah found GRACE in the eyes of the LORD" - Gen 6:8
Moses and Elijah - stand WITH Christ in Matt 17 - in glorified form - while the disciples are face down in the dust.
May we "quote you" on that --- because "you" are the only source for such a statement.
And that is the problem with your doctrine at that point.
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
Gal 1:6-9 -- there are not TWO Gospels -- but rather ... just one
Here "again" - you simply "quote you" -- and that sort of "source" for an infallible text does not go very far.
But Romans 2 does go a long way.
And so also Christ's words in Matt 7 "by their fruits you shall know them"
Romans 2
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my Gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
Grace given to ALL mankind because God "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" --- not just the saints.
By contrast to the TWO sinners - translated directly to heaven in the OT -- not even ONE such case in the NT.
Hebrews 11:13-16
13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
Ephesians 4:7-10
7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things
It really does you no good for anyone but those who agree with your deluded opinion to discuss the Bible. You've been presented and confronted with Bible for years. You continue to refuse to believe the Bible when it suits you.The depth of bible details included in your post could easily .... "exist"... were you to allow it.
That is unfound and unsupportable opinion.Moses was saved in the OT - and stands in glorified form with Christ in Matt 17 - fully saved... pre-cross.
Elijah was saved in the OT - and stands in glorified form with Christ in Matt 17 - fully saved... pre-cross.
Enoch was saved in the OT - was taken directly to heaven while still living - fully saved... pre-cross.
All the saints of Heb 11 - saved in the OT - fully saved... pre-cross.
But most of the saints then - and the saints after the cross... died and did not then experience the resurrection that will happen at the 2nd coming. So even though they were all saved during their own life times - they all wait for the 2nd coming.
OK, I'll let you have your salvation by works, if you wish. You can have my wages. I've accepted God's free gift. Guess what? You won't have the right to eat from the Tree of Life, causin' ya don't keep the whole law. The argument is based on your teaching.OT - Righteousness by Faith.
Heb 11
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
"The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7
"Noah found GRACE in the eyes of the LORD" - Gen 6:8
Moses and Elijah - stand WITH Christ in Matt 17 - in glorified form - while the disciples are face down in the dust.
May we "quote you" on that --- because "you" are the only source for such a statement.
And that is the problem with your doctrine at that point.
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
Gal 1:6-9 -- there are not TWO Gospels -- but rather ... just one
Here "again" - you simply "quote you" -- and that sort of "source" for an infallible text does not go very far.
But Romans 2 does go a long way.
And so also Christ's words in Matt 7 "by their fruits you shall know them"
Romans 2
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Its evident here you don't believe God convicts anyone, causin' yas continued effort to do so.11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my Gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
Grace given to ALL mankind because God "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" --- not just the saints.
By contrast to the TWO sinners - translated directly to heaven in the OT -- not even ONE such case in the NT.
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