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If you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments

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Meowzltov

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Yes they are all saved who are in that tree just as in the vine of John 15 -- because they all "stand only by your faith" as stated in Romans 11-- and "we ar saved by grace through faith" Eph 2:8 AS even Heb 11 points out for the OT saints.
Bob you are reasoning in a circular fashion. You are starting with the PREMISE that ONLY those who believe the gospel are saved (when in fact Romans 11 states that unbelieving Jews are among the elect/saved) and then you READ INTO OTHER VERSES your idea when those verses don't say this.

For example, "we are saved by grace through faith...It does not specify that it must be faith in Christ. Abraham had faith, but not in the Messiah. He had no concept of a Messiah. The idea of a Messiah couldn't exist until Israel had a King. A messianic AGE yes. A Messiah, no. At any rate, Jews before Jesus and Jews to this day are still saved by grace through faith.

You still haven't tackled Romans 11:28. Want to give it a shot? I'm not going to drop this until you do.
 
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Berean777

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Your stated......

"we are saved by grace through faith...It does not specify that it must be faith in Christ."

If faith is not solely in Christ, then what faith is there outside of Christ that would put one under Grace?

There is no Grace outside of Christ and scripture states that we are saved by no other means, except through God's Grace. The Christ is God's Grace offered to all mankind, for it is not by works that one is saved, but through God's Grace. Christ is the conduit by which that Grace is poured, through the preaching of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

John 1:17-18
17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

Again I ask you OH why are you promoting an anti-gospel (in place of) to that of the gospel of Jesus Christ?

The Apostles of Jesus Christ preached the one and only gospel of Grace to Jews, Greeks and Gentiles, how is it that you are implying that the apostles are peddling in another gospel, an anti-gospel, in place of the one and only true gospel of Jesus Christ, it would be absurd! don't you think?

After the cross there is no anti-gospel alongside that of the one and only gospel of Jesus Christ, neither was there taught by the apostles an antithesis alongside the thesis of the one and only gospel of Jesus Christ.


It seems that the apostles condemned such teachings of another gospel outside that of the gospel of Jesus Christ and they declared such teaching an anethama and one that is anti-Christ, that is in place of Christ. To have a teaching of Grace that is outside of Christ is one that the apostles declared as anti-Christ and another gospel (anti-gospel, antithesis).

Their writings are emphatic about apostate thoughts and teachings of Grace outside of Christ, for the Apostles taught that there was no one saved by faith before the cross, because Grace had not come into the world. In this regard Abraham nor Moses were saved before the cross, because Grace was not yet offered to them. It was only, after the cross that the Christ poured out Grace as declared by the apostle....


God waited patiently from Noah all the way to the last Old Covenant faithful hanging on Christ's right hand. We see that all those fathers of faith were hanging around in their dead state, until Messiah came to raise them up (Matthew 27:52-53), in fulfilment to Ezekiel 37:11-14.

So here is another apostle.....


The apostles preached unity in Christ through the one and only gospel of Grace.

The many captives in the spirit world, from Abel to the last old covenant faithful were offered Grace through Christ, when he came and died on the cross and arose on the third day and took with him the many old covenant captives, in fulfilment to Psalm 68:18.

There is no Grace outside of the cross of Christ and if there were apostles who taught as such, these were the warnings from the Apostolic church in Jerusalem........


The other gospel outside of the one and only gospel of Jesus Christ was the gospel of the Mosaic Law, that Judaisers were peddling in the time of the apostles.

Further more, here are more warnings......


No apostle preached another gospel outside and/or alongside that of Christ and if they wee found doing so, the church in Jerusalem would kick them out and put an anethama on them and treat them as cursed.


One who abides in Judaism and in the absence of Jesus Christ has no salvation and is under the condemnation of the Mosaic Law, which states that all have fallen short of the law and are condemned to spiritually die. John declares that they will not see life, but have the condemnation of God upon their heads. (John 3:18)

You are a Catholic right?, so please kindly stop promoting Judaism on a Christian Forum. Thank you for your understanding.
 
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Meowzltov

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If faith is not solely in Christ, then what faith is there outside of Christ that would put one under Grace?
faith in God, as Abraham had.
 
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Berean777

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faith in God, as Abraham had.

Abraham''s faith alone before the cross did not put him under Grace. This was the case for all Israelites living during the old covenant age. That is why they waited in their graves for the Messiah to come and to put them under Grace.

In the New Covenant age, faith in God is counted as faith, only if it it faith in Christ. After God poured out his Grace after the cross, the faith in God mandates that it must be faith in his Son, otherwise it is no faith at all.

People who say we have faith in God but not in Christ are worshipping not the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, because truth and Grace came by Jesus Christ and he revealed who the Father is.

So today's Jews without Christ are no different to those pagan religions like Islam or Hindu or Buddhism, because they worship a different god. They do not know God and neither see him as scripture states in John 14:7. True worship that is approved by God is to worship God in the Spirit and this is only made possible if Christ lives in the minds and hearts of people, for the Holy Ghost to build the faithful on the foundation cornerstone.

Having faith in God without faith in Christ is no faith at all and since it rescinds God's offer of Grace through his only begotten Son, then it would be counted as pagan worship, at best it would be in vain.
 
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Berean777

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Had the Jews during the time of Jesus known God they would have accepted him also, because they rejected the Son they also rejected the Father. (1 John 2:23)

People of the world who have rejected Christ after he has been preached to them and continue in their pagan ways are identified as the synagogue of satan. Synagogue means temple of the body, because after the cross either one is of the temple of God and if Christ's body or he is the temple for the prince of this world aka Satan.

A person doesn't have faith in God without Christ, is the answer to the world who accepts not Christ.

John 8
55Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. 56Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Abraham longed to see Chrisr because Abraham knew that only then he would be afforded Grace.
 
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BobRyan

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Abraham''s faith alone before the cross did not put him under Grace. This was the case for all Israelites living during the old covenant age. That is why they waited in their graves for the Messiah to come and to put them under Grace.

That is not true.

Moses and Elijah stand WITH Christ in glorified form in Matt 17 - BEFORE the Cross - while it is Peter, James and John that were face-down in the dust.

It is Enoch, Seth, Noah, Moses and Abraham in Heb 11 - hold up before NT saints - as the models that we are to follow.

There is no such thing as Enoch, Moses, Elijah -- in heaven but "not through grace" -- that would be "another gospel".

"The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7

"Noah found GRACE in the eyes of the LORD" - Gen 6:8

OT - Righteousness by Faith.

Heb 11
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
 
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BobRyan

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Open Heart said:
It does not say that those grafted in are all the saved.

Yes they are all saved who are in that tree just as in the vine of John 15 -- because they all "stand only by your faith" as stated in Romans 11-- and "we ar saved by grace through faith" Eph 2:8 AS even Heb 11 points out for the OT saints.

Bob you are reasoning in a circular fashion. You are starting with the PREMISE that ONLY those who believe the gospel are saved (when in fact Romans 11 states that unbelieving Jews are among the elect/saved)

Romans 11 does not say that unbelieving Jews are saved - rather it says they were broken off - cast out - "for unbelief".

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again

They are "cut off" for unbelief -- not "they are saved no matter what - just by virtue of physical parentage"

There is NO GOSPEL of the form "saved by parentage".

Ezek 14:4
even if these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they would deliver but their own lives by their righteousness, declares the Lord GOD



and then you READ INTO OTHER VERSES your idea when those verses don't say this.

For example, "we are saved by grace through faith...It does not specify that it must be faith in Christ.

In Romans 2 the non-Bible aware gentiles follow the Holy Spirit - receive the New Covenant and are saved - while rebellious Jews are lost.

You are right that the gentile living in darkness without the Bible does not have full gospel details - yet some of them submit to the Holy Spirit's leading and are saved. God is all powerful and allknowing.

Abraham had faith, but not in the Messiah. He had no concept of a Messiah.

Not according to Christ.
"Abraham SAW My day and was glad" John 8

Not according to Paul
"The GOSPEL was preached to ABRAHAM" Gal 3:7
"Only ONE Gospel" Gal 1:6-9

Not according to Peter
10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Not according to Matthew -
Matt 17 -- Moses stands WITH Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration


Open Heart said:
You still haven't tackled Romans 11:28. Want to give it a shot? I'm not going to drop this until you do.

Romans 11:28 does NOT say "Saved in unbelief" even in the OT "TURN to Me and be saved says the LORD"
John 3:16 "God so LOVED the World that He gave" - LOVED the Lost world. Being loved does not mean - you are saved. It is those that NEED to be saved - the WORLD - that are "So Loved".

Romans 2 - Context for Romans 11

25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Romans 9 "they are NOT all Israel who are children of the flesh".
Rom 9
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed
 
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Berean777

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Are you saying that Abraham had a crossless Grace in the absence of the blood of the lamb of God?

In this regard did Abraham recieve his eternal inheritance solely on his faith?

If Old Covenant saints were saved by their own works, because that is what faith back then would have equated to, then why was Christ crucified for the sins of all, once and for all?

If Abraham's faith saved himself, because you said that he had Grace by his worked faith, then are you saying that Abraham was sinless?

Are you saying that the gospel of Grace (Jesus Christ), was available to the Old Covenant saints?

If so, then why does scripture state that Abraham was dead, awaiting the Christ to come and raise him and other of his kindred up from the grave, according to Matthew 27:52-53?

Since the question was related to Abraham who did die, then why do you deflect the issue by referring to two alleged people who have yet to die?

If Abraham was saved by Grace, then why did he go to the grave after physical death?

Why do you draw a conclusion that Moses, Enoch and Elijah went to heaven before physical death?

If they were allegedly saved by Grace as you implied and went to heaven, then why do they need to come back to face the sorrow of death?

Isn't it once someone goes to heaven, that there will be no more tears and that there is no more sorrow?

How could anyone recieve their eternal inheritance before they die? Because as it is written all men are destined to die once then judgement.

I think that scripture plainly states that before Christ was raised and went to sit on the right hand of the Father, no other human had gone up into heaven? So how did Moses, Enoch, and Elijah go there before Christ?


Since the author references Moses, why does he say that only the Christ has gone to heaven?

Did Moses, Enoch, Elijah and Abraham have eternal life before Christ?

If the answer is yes, then that would be another gospel and another grace that is in the absence of the cross of Christ.

If heaven was readily available to any old covenant saint before Christ and before the blood of the lamb of God on the cross that atoned for all sin, once and for all, then Moses was not only saved without Christ, but that Moses himself can save. This would be a gospel outside of Christ/Grace that is being preached, isn't it?

John 1:17
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Again why did Abraham die, if he was under the gospel of Grace before the cross of Christ?

What Grace was there or is there outside of the cross of Christ?

If one says there was or there is Grace outside of the cross of Christ, then that would be another gospel.

Beloved brother let us not forget Christ and his works, for they alone are imputed upon all of humanity as righteousness, for Grace is not a human action, rather Grace is the person of Christ himself.

Jesus Christ is Grace.



In Christ my appointment is to feed the flock, all to the glory of God the Father.

My title Stellar Son was given to me when God showed me all the man of renown of the Old Testament and the New Testament and I was shown a very small box when going from left to right in this generational time scroll dating back from the huge figures like Abraham and the prophets of old. As I was zoomed to a very miniscule box I saw the name Stellar Son, that is the son of the stars (angels). I hope that one day all the sons of Jacob come to faith in Christ as the 11th hour workmen, for this is my endevour with the angels in heaven, for our beloved and most precious Christ Jesus
 
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Berean777

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@BobRyan I love you brother in Christ and that love extends to all members (Catholic and the rest) of the body of Christ including Messianic's members who have also faithfully shared their thoughts. Let us all edify one another with the hope in Christ and his one and only gospel of Grace that justifies and saves all of us, through his finished works on the cross at calvary.
 
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bugkiller

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The short course in what is going on is found in Acts 15. The pro law group here are doing their best to convert and divert Christians from the free gift

offered by God the Father thru His only begotten Son, Jesus the Christ. Wages are paid only as death. Yet they claim they have the

right to eat from the tree of life because of their works (partial obedience to and) of the law. The only way they can support their

view is by divorcing single verses from the total context of the whole Bible. I find it no small wonder why the wicked detest what

is found being promoted by organized religion. The real truth is.... well on second thought, don't wish to be banned.

bugkiller
 
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bugkiller

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The grace you talk about isn't the same grace offered by God the Father thru His only begotten Son Jesus the Christ.

Your proof text of Mat 17 doesn't prove salvation nor that those were saved as in redeemed because no one was redeemed at that time.

bugkiller
 
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bugkiller

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The gospel as you say it wasn't preached to Abraham. Moses said so in Deut 5.

bugkiller
 
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BobRyan

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Abraham''s faith alone before the cross did not put him under Grace. This was the case for all Israelites living during the old covenant age. That is why they waited in their graves for the Messiah to come and to put them under Grace.

That is not true.

Moses and Elijah stand WITH Christ in glorified form in Matt 17 - BEFORE the Cross - while it is Peter, James and John that were face-down in the dust.

It is Enoch, Seth, Noah, Moses and Abraham in Heb 11 - hold up before NT saints - as the models that we are to follow.

There is no such thing as Enoch, Moses, Elijah -- in heaven but "not through grace" -- that would be "another gospel".

"The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7

"Noah found GRACE in the eyes of the LORD" - Gen 6:8

OT - Righteousness by Faith.

Heb 11
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.


"The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7

"Noah found GRACE in the eyes of the LORD" - Gen 6:8

Moses and Elijah - stand WITH Christ in Matt 17 - in glorified form - while the disciples are face down in the dust.

Your argument is "with the text"
 
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bugkiller

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No sir it isn't. You promote the law (is grace) and preached to Abraham contrary to Moses. The Gospel preached to Abraham was the promise of a Redeemer and he believed.

bugkiller
 
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Berean777

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It is sad that some are trying to redefine salvation outside of the cross of Christ. After all, did not all the prophets of old put all their hopes of being saved by the Messiah to come, how is it that some are saying that salvation came before the cross.


The apostle writings in Hebrews, writing to the Jewish converts to Christ is saying cleanse yourselves, meaning have nothing to do with acts (Mosaic Law keepers/observers) that lead to death.

How did the old covenant saints recieve the promise of being saved if Christ hadn't come yet?

When Jesus came Grace came and through this post calvary grace one is saved.

At least believe the apostles....

32And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson and Jephthah, about David and Samuel and the prophets, 33who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions.


No old covenant saint for their faith had received what had been promised to them, this included Abraham, Moses, Elijah and Enoch. At least believe the apostle when he says that they only recieved it together with the apostles and only after the cross at calvary.
 
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Meowzltov

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Romans 11 does not say that unbelieving Jews are saved
Tell me YOUR interpretation of Romans 11:28
As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs
 
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Meowzltov

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What faith did Abraham have? It can't possibly be related to the law which came 430 years after and Moses also declared Abraham didn't have the lawin Deut 5.

bugkiller
Faith in God. Obviously you haven't been following the conversation.
 
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