If you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments

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Poster0

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D. Philip Schaff rejects all of Ignatius' letters as spurious:

Philip Schaff acknowledges that there has been a broad and long standing view that all the Ignatian letters are forgeries, and leaves the matter for the reader to decide for himself. Schaff does clearly reject all the letters as forgeries, as can be seen in his comments:

  1. "The whole story of Ignatius is more legendary than real, and his writings are subject to grave suspicion of fraudulent interpolation." (History of the Christian Church, Philip Shaff, Vol 2, ch 4)
  2. "But I am content to leave the whole matter, without comment, to the minds of Christians of whatever school and to their independent conclusions." Introductory Note To The Epistle Of Ignatius To The Ephesians.
  3. "The reader may judge, by comparison for himself, which of these is to be accepted as genuine" Introductory Note To The Epistle Of Ignatius To The Ephesians.
..

Before this date, however, there had not been wanting some who refused to acknowledge the authenticity of these Epistles in either of the recensions in which they were then known to exist. By far the most learned and elaborate work maintaining this position was that of Daillé (or Dallaeus), published in 1666. This drew forth in reply the celebrated Vindiciae of Bishop Pearson, which appeared in 1672. It was generally supposed that this latter work had established on an immoveable foundation the genuineness of the shorter form of the Ignatian Epistles; and, as we have stated above, this was the conclusion almost universally accepted down to our own day. The only considerable exception to this concurrence was presented by Whiston, who laboured to maintain in his Primitive Christianity Revived (1711) the superior claims of the longer recension of the Epistles, apparently influenced in doing so by the support which he thought they furnished to the kind of Arianism which he had adopted.

But although the shorter form of the Ignatian letters had been generally accepted in preference to the longer, there was still a pretty prevalent opinion among scholars, that even it could not be regarded as absolutely free from interpolations, or as of undoubted authenticity. Thus said Lardner, in his Credibility of the Gospel History (1743): "have carefully compared the two editions, and am very well satisfied, upon that comparison, that the larger are an interpolation of the smaller, and not the smaller an epitome or abridgment of the larger.... But whether the smaller themselves are the genuine writings of Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, is a question that has been much disputed, and has employed the pens of the ablest critics. And whatever positiveness some may have shown on either side, I must own I have found it a very difficult question."

This expression of uncertainty was repeated in substance by Jortin (1751), Mosheim (1755), Griesbach (1768), Rosenmüller (1795), Neander (1826), and many others; some going so far as to deny that we have any authentic remains of Ignatius at all, while others, though admitting the seven shorter letters as being probably his, yet strongly suspected that they were not free from interpolation. Upon the whole, however, the shorter recension was, until recently, accepted without much opposition, and chiefly in dependence on the work of Bishop Pearson above mentioned, as exhibiting the genuine form of the Epistles of Ignatius.




No - I might as well accept "sola scriptura" testing of all doctrine and tradition - rather then settle for a virtual minefield of spurious documents, and others loaded with interpolation when not entirely forged.

in Christ,

Bob


For me personally, the Ignatius quotes I have read in this thread don't seem to be in agreement with how I understand Paul's letters. I personally don't concern myself with holy days. I know you believe in sabbath keeping however, and others believe that Sunday is a new holy day, and we'll just need to agree to dissagree. Have a nice day everyone.
 
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BobRyan

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Let's make it super easy ...

All efforts to oppose the Commandments of God can be resolved by answering this simple question

===========================


If you oppose the Commandments of God in NT times - then answer this question -

In Eph 6:2 - "honor your father and mother for this is the first commandment with a promise" -- what Law - what unit of Law is it to be found that 'honor your father and mother" is the FIRST commandment with a promise??

First commandment where?

========================= next

having provided the obvious answer to that question - the next point is addressed by Mark 7 telling us whether God's law can be edited/changed by church tradition.

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.


so then is Christ approving of church tradition editing/tweaking the Law of God in that scripture ?? simple question -- easy answer.

======================= hence the answer to the OP

Ex 20:8-11 says the 7th day is a day of rest.
Lev 23:1-4 says it is reserved as a day of worship and is kept from sunset Friday to sundown Saturday evening.
Is 66:23 says it is to be a day of worship for "All mankind to come before Me and worship".
Mark 2:27 says it was 'made for mankind'
Rev 14:7 says to "WORSHIP Him who MADE the heavens and the earth the seas and all that is in them"
Rev 14:12 says the saints "keep the Commandments of God and their faith in Jesus"

So it is possible that you want to keep Sabbath because you know you are part of "mankind"
 
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BobRyan

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Yep and then you go ahead and ignore the part that says "from new moon to new moon". LOL. And the part that YHWH will gather and choose Levites to offer sacrifices. You also ignore Ezekiel 40-48 Millennial Kingdom details. You also ignore that all nations will be required to keep Tabernacles when Christ comes back (Zechariah 14). and there is so much you do not consider.

Not true - I am happy to have the New Moon (monthly) observance at the point that the New heavens and New Earth (Rev 21) have been created and so then we will have TWO creation events to memorialize.

In the mean time - while we have only ONE creation event for earth ... this is the easy part.

Is 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" is pretty easy to read and understand -- for all of us.

Rev 14:7 "Worship Him who MADE the heavens the earth the seas and the springs of water"
 
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Open Heart

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I reject much of what so-called "science" says. Everyone should. Like their cosmology and the age of the earth.
Why??????? It's based on EVIDENCE!!!! Do you think God would LIE when he created the world and plant false evidence to fool us?
 
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BobRyan

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Why??????? It's based on EVIDENCE!!!! Do you think God would LIE when he created the world and plant false evidence to fool us?

God said He created all life on planet earth in 6 days and rested the 7th day - and that we too should work those same six days and rest on that same 7th day each week.

I for one, believe Him. He was there for that.

Blind faith evolutionism was not there for that.
 
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BobRyan

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Why??????? It's based on EVIDENCE!!!! Do you think God would LIE when he created the world and plant false evidence to fool us?

The "convincing evidence" is that everyone agrees that "at least" more than half of what was foisted upon mankind as the works of Ignatius was forged, fraud etc.

And "the convincing evidence" is that of the remaining few letters that "might" be valid they are rife with interpolation.

Yet all of that sort - is much to be preferred to the actual Bible for "some" - and that is sad.
 
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Open Heart

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The "convincing evidence" is that everyone agrees that "at least" more than half of what was foisted upon mankind as the works of Ignatius was forged, fraud etc.

And "the convincing evidence" is that of the remaining few letters that "might" be valid they are rife with interpolation.

Yet all of that sort - is much to be preferred to the actual Bible for "some" - and that is sad.
This has nothing to do with the quote you were supposed to be replying to. Try to stay on subject.
 
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BABerean2

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having provided the obvious answer to that question - the next point is addressed by Mark 7 declaring that God's law cannot be edited/changed by church tradition.

Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

.
 
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BobRyan

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The law of the priesthood changed because as Heb 7 points out Christ could not be a priest under the Sinai covenant unless he was of the tribe of Levi. But the command to "honor your parents" does not change for the Ten Commandments are the LAW of God under BOTH covenants. Different Covenants - same moral law of God.

Those who are carefully avoiding the simple question asked in Today at 11:08 AM #165
please note that this Eph 6:2 statement is a case of Paul affirming that same unit of Law - long after the cross. Long after the Heb 7 change.

Or - we can use this one as the example -- carefully avoided.
Today at 11:09 AM #383
 
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...I hold to ... Chiliasm...
1000 Years Here Or 1000 Years There?

The scripture speaks about 1000 years that will come:

And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, (Revelation 20:2)

And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. (Revelation 20:3)

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (Revelation 20:4)

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection. (Revelation 20:5)

Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Revelation 20:6)

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, (Revelation 20:7)

Those passages speak about a "1000 years" "reign", a "millenium" [latin: "mille":1000 and "annum":years] that shall be with CHRIST JESUS and HIS Saints.

Where will this "1000 years" "reign" with CHRIST JESUS be? Shall it be here upon this Earth? or shall it be elsewhere instead [and if elsewhere, where then, and what of the Earth at that time, and where will Satan and the wicked be during this same period, and what then after the 1000 years]? Let us look to the scriptures for these answers:

There are two "reigns" ["1000 years" and "forever and ever"], one leading into the other:

[1] The "1000 years" reign "in Heaven" [Psalms 50:5; Matthew 5:3,8,10,12, 6:20, 13:30, 24:31; Mark 10:21, 13:27; Luke 6:23, 18:22, 23:43; John 14:2-3, 17:24; Colossians 1:5; Hebrews 10:34; 1 Peter 1:4; Revelation 7:9, 14:3, 19:1; "Paradise", Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 12:4; Revelation 2:7] with CHRIST JESUS [1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; Revelation 20:6] and...

[2] The "reign on earth" ["made new", not this sin polluted Earth; 2 Peter 3:13; Isaiah 65:17, 66:22; Revelation 21:1] that lasts "forever and ever" [Revelation 5:10; "meek inherit earth" ["made new", not this sin polluted Earth], Psalms 37:9,11,34; Proverbs 11:31; Isaiah 25:8, 65:21; Daniel 7:27; Matthew 5:5; Revelation 5:10].

The passages which speak about the "1000 years" "reign" of the Saints with CHRIST JESUS [Revelation 20:1-7] make absolutely no mention of being "on the earth". The passages which speak about the "reign on the earth" [Revelation 5:10] does not end after a "1000 years", for it is even "forever and ever" [Revelation 11:15, 22:5]. In fact, the passages declare that those Saints reigning with CHRIST JESUS in the "1000 years" are "in Heaven" before the throne of GOD on the "sea of glass mingled with fire" [Revelation 4:6, 15:2].

What then begins the "1000 years"? The First Resurrection and the 2nd Advent of CHRIST JESUS [which there is no longer any possibility to change sides in the Great Controversy]:

He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. (Revelation 22:11)

HE [JESUS] will come with "clouds" to reap the earth:

And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud [one] sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. (Revelation 14:14)

In scripture these "clouds" are HIS Angels, the very "reapers" [see Article "The Day Of The LORD"; Psalms 68:17, 104:3; Isaiah 66:15; Matthew 13:39,49, 16:27, 24:30, 25:31,51, 26:64; Mark 8:38, 13:27; Luke 9:26, 21:27; Acts 1:9-11; 1 Thessalonians 3:13, 4:16-17; Hebrews 1:7; Revelation 1:7, 12:7, etc] and every Angel in Heaven [all of them] is coming back with HIM in the most glorious triumphant return...and there will be silence in Heaven "about the space" of "half an hour" [Revelation 8:1]...

Just as there was a resurrection of "many" [not all] Saints that "slept" around Jerusalem [locally] at the time of JESUS' own resurrection [Matthew 27:52], the very "firstfruits" of that Great "Harvest" of the Earth [Revelation 14:15] which is coming to begin the "1000 years" [see Exodus 23:16,19, 34:22,26; 1 Corinthians 15:20,23; Ephesians 4:8]:

And just as those who were resurrected then as "Firstfruits" came out of their graves and were later then taken into Heaven with CHRIST JESUS, so likewise all of the righteous saints still on the earth at the 2nd Advent will likewise rise and be "caught up" "into the air" "to meet the LORD" and be taken back with HIM into Heaven, to "the place" HE has gone to "prepare for" us [compare Revelation 20:4-6], just as the Bridegroom comes for HIS Bride and takes her back to the room that was built onto the FATHER's House [Psalms 19:5-6; Matthew 25:1-13]:

In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. (John 14:2)

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also. (John 14:3)

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (1 Thessalonians 4:15)

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (1 Thessalonains 4:16)

Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1 Thessalonians 4:17)

Looking closely at Revelation 20:4-6 [which is directly linked to 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; the "first resurrection"] reveals together then that the Saints [who were all "caught up" "into the air" to meet their LORD] then live and reign with CHRIST JESUS for "1000 years" in "Heaven". Not a single text there in vs 4-6 say that the "1000 years" "reign" is to be on this earth. Not a single text reveal that all of the Saints then suddenly drop out of the sky after meeting their LORD in "the air" to then reign on the Earth, and we are about to see scriptures which reveal why the Saints cannot reign on the Earth during the "1000 years":

In the 2nd Advent, "every eye" [wicked and righteous living] "shall see HIM" [JESUS] and they "shall see HIM as HE is" [1 John 3:2], yea, even "they who pierced HIM" and "all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of HIM" [Revelation 1:7; see also Matthew 26:64; Mark 14:62]; "all the tribes of the earth" [Matthew 24:30].

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. (2 Peter 1:20)

...regarding the "power" and "coming" [in the Greek is "parousia" "παρουσία"; see end of Article "The Day Of The LORD"] of our "LORD JESUS CHRIST" that Peter and others have "made known"...

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. (2 Peter 1:16) [see Mount of Transfiguration, a miniature type of that which is to come.]

...here are some of those texts [see also Joel 2:32; Revelation 6:14-17]...

"...the Son of man in heaven ... they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." (Matthew 24:30;p)

[the "clouds" are the "reapers", the Angels, see Article "The Day Of The LORD"]

"...the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him..." (Matthew 25:31;p)

"...the Son of man … when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels." (Mark 8:38;p)

"...the Son of man … when he shall come in his own glory, and [in his] Father's, and of the holy angels." (Luke 9:26;p)

"...they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory." (Luke 21:27;p)

"...the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints." (1 Thessalonians 3:13;p)

"...the Lord himself shall descend from heaven..." (1 Thessalonians 4:16;p)

It is exactly during this monumentous event that every single "dead in CHRIST" [1 Thessalonians 4:16] will "awake" from their "sleep" and "slumber" in the "dust" of the earth [Isaiah 26:19; 1 Corinthians 15:55], "arise" from their first death, and "shout" and "sing" and be given immortality then, as will then the living righteous [1 Corinthians 15:52-54; 2 Timothy 4:8; clearly showing that they did not have it beforehand, they were mortal before].
 
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So, CHRIST JESUS will come in Great Glory, Majesty and Power, with all of the Holy Angels to reap the Great Harvest of the Earth [Mark 4:29; Revelation 14:14-15] and according to the passages which speak of these events, such as 1 Thesslonians 4:16-17, JESUS CHRIST never touches the earth at any single point during the 2nd Advent [which begins the 1000 years]. HE remains "up in the air", and the saints are "gathered" to HIM "in the clouds" [Matthew 24:31; Mark 13:27]. HE does not descend to touch the earth at any point during this time. New Jerusalem also does not come with CHRIST JESUS at this point, but rather the Saints are taken back to it in a glorious procession and triumphant return, surrounded by all the Holy Angels!

What is then taking place on the Earth while the Saints are reigning in Heaven for 1000 years?

During the 1000 years all of the wicked who ever lived are slain, left dead as refuse "upon the ground" [Jeremiah 25:33], a "great supper" for "all the fowls" [Matthew 24:28; Luke 17:37; Revelation 19:17], destroyed by the 7 last plagues [Revelation 16:1-21], great hail, earthquake [Revelation 16:18] and JESUS' Glory and Brightness of HIS 2nd Advent [2 Thessalonians 2:8]...this is why scripture can say, "that the rest of the dead [being all of the wicked], lived not again until the thousand years are finished". With all of the destruction and judgment laid heavy upon the earth, in its sin filled and polluted condition who will be able to live there, "reign" there or want to? All of the "rest of the dead" [all of the wicked who have ever been] are not alive during the 1000 years. Earth is left desolate, broken down, left in darkness, and only Satan and his angels remain there, "bound" in the barren "wilderness", unable to tempt anyone [for the Saints are with CHRIST JESUS in Heaven, and the wicked are dead; see also Article "The Day Of The LORD"]:

And they shall be gathered together, [as] prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited. (Isaiah 24:22) [All of the wicked are gathered into bundles, in death, and are "shut up" in their graves until the end of the 1000 years [the "after many days"] and the 3rd Advent of CHRIST JESUS takes place with the Saints and New Jerusalem coming down out of Heaven, and the second resurrection also taking place.]

As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. (Matthew 13:40)

For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. (Matthew 24:28)

And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body [is], thither will the eagles be gathered together. (Luke 17:37)

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: (2 Thessalonians 1:8)

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: (2 Thessalonians 2:8)

I will utterly consume all [things] from off the land, saith the LORD. (Zephaniah 1:2)

I will consume man and beast; I will consume the fowls of the heaven, and the fishes of the sea, and the stumblingblocks with the wicked; and I will cut off man from off the land, saith the LORD. (Zephaniah 1:3)

And the idols he shall utterly abolish. (Isaiah 2:18) [See also Daniel 2:34,45]

And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. (Isaiah 2:19)

To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. (Isaiah 2:21)

But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. (Isaiah 11:4)

Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof. (Isaiah 24:1)

The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word. (Isaiah 24:3)

The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly. (Isaiah 24:19)

The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again. (Isaiah 24:20)

Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it. (Isaiah 34:1)

For the indignation of the LORD [is] upon all nations, and [his] fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter. (Isaiah 34:2)

Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. (Isaiah 34:3)

And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling [fig] from the fig tree. (Isaiah 34:4)

And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. (Isaiah 34:9)

I beheld the earth, and, lo, [it was] without form, and void; and the heavens, and they [had] no light. (Jeremiah 4:23)

I beheld, and, lo, [there was] no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. (Jeremiah 4:25)

I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place [was] a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, [and] by his fierce anger. (Jeremiah 4:26)

For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. (Jeremiah 4:27) [The full end comes after the 3rd Advent [end of the 1000 years], New Jerusalem descends with the Saints from heaven, the 2nd resurrection [Resurrection of the wicked] after the 1,000 years takes place, Satan is loosed for he now has a massive group of resurrected [all of the wicked who ever lived] at his hands and they surround the camp of the saints, and then the final judgment and destruction of all the wicked and Satan with the Lake of Fire and Rain of Fire, and when they are finally "burnt up" into "smoke" and "ashes", never to be "any more", then shall CHRIST JESUS create the New Heaven and New Earth for the meek to inherit...]

For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken [it], I have purposed [it], and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it. (Jeremiah 4:28)

The whole city shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen; they shall go into thickets, and climb up upon the rocks: every city [shall be] forsaken, and not a man dwell therein. (Jeremiah 4:29)

And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from [one] end of the earth even unto the [other] end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground. (Jeremiah 25:33)
 
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For at the second Advent of CHRIST JESUS [which is the precursor to the beginning of the 1,000 years], a great and mighty earthquake rocks the world and the First Great Resurrection takes place [Revelation 20:4-6]:

And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, [and] so great. (Revelation 16:8)

And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. (Revelation 16:9)

And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. (Revelation 16:20)

And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, [every stone] about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great. (Revelation 16:21)

With these passages how can there be a "1000 years" "reign" of peace on the Earth by anyone? For scripture continues by clearly saying:

But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (Matthew 24:37)

For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, (Matthew 24:38)

And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (Matthew 24:39)

They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. (Luke 17:27)

Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; (Luke 17:28)

But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed [them] all. (Luke 17:29)

Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. (Luke 17:30)

For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. (1 Thessalonians 5:3)

Satan [represented by the scapegoat, `aza'zel, not a sacrifice for sin, but ultimately responsible for all sin] then, after the Saints are "caught up" "into the air" and the wicked are "brought low" and "slain" [to await their final sentencing in the Second resurrection after the 1000 years], is bound by his surrounding circumstance in the "1000 years" on the desolate Earth, the "wilderness" a "land not inhabited" [see Jeremiah 4:23-29, 25:33], where was once the "fruitful place", and he is bound and led away, just as Leviticus 16 and Revelation 20:1-3 reveal [for events beforehand compare also Leviticus 16:17 to Revelation 15:8, and also Leviticus 16:20 with JESUS coming out of Heaven to Hebrews 9:28]:

And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat. (Leviticus 16:8)

But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, [and] to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness. (Leviticus 16:10)

And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy [place], and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat: (Leviticus 16:20) [compare to...]

Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. (Revelation 20:1)

And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send [him] away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: (Leviticus 16:21)

And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness. (Leviticus 16:22) [compare to...]

And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, (Revelation 20:2)

And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. (Revelation 20:3)

Since the scriptures reveal that the Saints are not on the Earth during the "1000 years", and the unrighteous do "not inherit the Kingdom of GOD" [1 Corinthians 6:9-10], how then can it be taught that the Saints "reign" over the wicked as some assume? The scriptures never speak of the Saints reigning "over" the wicked, but rather the scriptures say that the Saints shall "reign with CHRIST JESUS". What does this mean? Let us look at some instances of how the scriptures use the word "reign" here:

For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) (Romans 5:17)

Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you. (1 Corinthians 4:8)

If we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]: if we deny [him], he also will deny us: (2 Timothy 2:12)

Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Revelation 20:6)

It is not a 'reign over the wicked' as some have judged. It is rather a "reign[ing] with CHRIST JESUS" in life and peace.

Scripture says that during the 1000 years, we will be able to look over the record books and see the judgments of GOD, and HE will be vindicated, for it is ultimately HE that has been on trial, HIS goodness, HIS Justice, HIS Love, Mercy, etc:

The fear of the LORD [is] clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD [are] true [and] righteous altogether. (Psalms 19:9)

Thy word [is] true [from] the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments [endureth] for ever. (Psalms 119:160)

The LORD [is] righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works. (Psalms 145:17)

God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. (Romans 3:4)

Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment. (John 7:24)

And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? (Romans 2:27)

Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in [his] brother's way. (Romans 14:13)

Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God. (1 Corinthians 4:5)

Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? (1 Corinthians 6:2)

Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? (1 Corinthians 6:3)

And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous [are] thy judgments. (Revelation 16:7)

For true and righteous [are] his judgments: for he hath judged the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand. (Revelation 19:2)

We will get to look at the righteous judgments of GOD, for GOD is JUDGE [Isaiah 3:13, 11:4, 33:22; John 12:48; Acts 10:42, 17:31; Romans 2:16, 3:6; 2 Timothy 4:1,8; Hebrews 10:30, 12:23, 13:4; James 5:9; 1 Peter 4:5; Revelation 6:10, 19:11], and realize that HE is fair, just, and love in all things.

CHRIST JESUS said it will not be like those who "excercise lordship":

And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. (Luke 22:25)

But ye [shall] not [be] so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve. (Luke 22:26)

It is interesting to see some additionally teach that there will even be marriages and births during the "1000 years", but let us see what scripture plainly says; for we know that the "First Resurrection" and the 2nd Advent begin the "1000 years" [1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; Revelation 20:4-6]:

For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. (Matthew 22:30)

For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven. (Mark 12:25)

But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage. (Luke 20:35)
 
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There are some who have suggested and/or taught that JESUS Kingdom will be upon this Earth during the "1000 years", ruling from an earthly Jerusalem, from and earthly temple, HE has said to them through the scriptures, "...My kingdom is not of this world ..." [John 18:36;p]. The "1000 years" "reign" will then not be upon this sin polluted Earth. CHRIST JESUS has said of the physical Jewish Israelite Temple, "...your house is left unto you desolate..." [Matthew 23:38; Luke 13:35;p], and it was destroyed in AD 70 by the Romans under Titus ["the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city"; see Daniel 9:26; Matthew 24:15; Mark 13:14] as prophesied by CHRIST JESUS, "There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." [see Matthew 24:2; Mark 13:2; Luke 19:44, 21:6]. For the Church itself, and its members, the Body of CHRIST, are the "Holy Temple" of the Living GOD, "lively stones", and "pillar" [1 Corinthians 3:16-17, 6:19; 2 Corinthians 6:16; Ephesians 2:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:4; 1 Peter 2:5; Revelation 3:12], JESUS is our "Temple" [John 2:19-20; see also Matthew 26:61, 27:40; Mark 14:58, 15:29] and the "Temple" in Heaven [Exodus 25:9,40; Hebrews 9:23; Revelation 7:15, 11:1-2,19, 14:15,17, 15:5-6,8, 16:1,17, 21:22] and we, as Abraham and the faithful, do not look for an earthly city, but rather an "Heavenly" City, "whose builder an Maker is GOD", "New Jerusalem" [Hebrews 11:10,13-14,16,39-40, 12:22; Revelation 3:12, 21:2]. There will indeed be a "reign" "forever and ever" upon Earth, but it shall be the Earth "made new", which the "meek shall inherit", after the "1000 years" and the destruction of Satan and all of the wicked.

For precept [must be] upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, [and] there a little: (Isaiah 28:10)

Let us ask directly of scripture: "Who shall not inherit and who shall not reign, and what then shall their portion and inheritance be?"

The heaven shall reveal his iniquity; and the earth shall rise up against him. (Job 20:27)

The increase of his house shall depart, [and his goods] shall flow away in the day of his wrath. (Job 20:28)

This [is] the portion of a wicked man from God, and the heritage appointed unto him by God. (Job 20:29)

For what portion of God [is there] from above? and [what] inheritance of the Almighty from on high? (Job 31:2)

[Is] not destruction to the wicked? and a strange [punishment] to the workers of iniquity? (Job 31:3)

The wicked shall be turned into hell, [and] all the nations that forget God. (Psalms 9:17)

Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: [this shall be] the portion of their cup. (Psalms 11:6)

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, (1 Corinthians 6:9)

Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (Galatians 5:21)

It is clear that the wicked shall not "reign", neither "inherit the Kingdom of GOD" but their "portion" and "inheritance" is "destruction", "fire and brimstone".

Let us next ask of scripture: "Who then shall inherit and reign?"

For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth. (Psalms 37:9)

But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace. (Psalms 37:11)

Wait on the LORD, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see [it]. (Psalms 37:34)

For the LORD taketh pleasure in his people: he will beautify the meek with salvation. (Psalms 149:4)

Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth: much more the wicked and the sinner. (Proverbs 11:31)

He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken [it]. (Isaiah 25:8)

Blessed [are] the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:3)

Blessed [are] the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. (Matthew 5:5)

Blessed [are] the pure in heart: for they shall see God. (Matthew 5:8)

Blessed [are] they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:10)

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: (Matthew 25:34)

Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. (2 Peter 3:13)

Let us ask of scripture, "Shall the Saints enter into Heaven?":

Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice. (Psalms 50:5)

Blessed [are] the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:3)

Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great [is] your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. (Matthew 5:12)

But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: (Matthew 6:20)

Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. (Matthew 13:30)

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Matthew 24:31)

Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. (Mark 10:21)

And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. (Mark 13:27)

Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward [is] great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets. (Luke 6:23)

Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. (Luke 18:22)

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. (Luke 23:43) [considering "today", there is no punctuation in the Greek Texts, compoare John 20:17. Especially compare this verse and the word "paradise" to the same in 2 Corinthians 12:4 and Revelation 2:7]

In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. (John 14:2)

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also. (John 14:3)

For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; (Colossians 1:5)

Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1 Thessalonians 4:17)

For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance. (Hebrews 10:34)

To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, (1 Peter 1:4)

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; (Revelation 7:9)

And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. (Revelation 14:3)

And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God: (Revelation 19:1)

Let us ask scripture "Shall the Saints then after being in Heaven for 1000 years also inherit the Earth?"

For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth. (Psalms 37:9)

But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace. (Psalms 37:11)

Wait on the LORD, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see [it]. (Psalms 37:34)

Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth: much more the wicked and the sinner. (Proverbs 11:31)

And they shall build houses, and inhabit [them]; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. (Isaiah 65:21)

And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom [is] an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. (Daniel 7:27)

Blessed [are] the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. (Matthew 5:5)

And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. (Revelation 5:10)
 
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Let us further ask of scripture, "Do the Saints await to inherit and reign on this sin polluted Earth, or do they rather wait to inherit the Earth made new after the "1000 years" and destruction of the wicked?”

For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. (Isaiah 65:17)

For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. (Isaiah 66:22)

Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. (2 Peter 3:13)

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. (Revelation 21:1)

There are many texts which have already revealed that this sin polluted Earth is to be "brought low", made desolate and the "trangression thereof shall be heavy upon it" during the 1000 years, but shall this sin polluted Earth also "pass away" afterwards? Yes, this sin polluted Earth is to "pass away" and be "made new":

Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. (Matthew 24:35)

Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. (Mark 13:31)

Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. (Luke 21:33)

But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. (2 Peter 3:7)

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. (Revelation 21:4)

Let us ask scripture, "How can we know for certain that the Saints will not reign on this sin polluted Earth, but will instead inherit the Earth "made new"?"

And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come. (Matthew 12:32)

But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom. (Matthew 26:29)

But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life. (Mark 10:30)

Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God. (Mark 14:25)

Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting. (Luke 18:30)

Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. (John 18:36)

Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: (Ephesians 1:21)

For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. (Hebrews 2:5)

And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, (Hebrews 6:5)

The passages which speak of things done during the "Reign on the Earth" [Revelation 5:10], wherein they shall "build houses", "plant vineyards", "calves of the stall" [Malachi 4:2], "wolf also shall dwell with the lamb" [Isaiah 11:6-10] and "feed together" [Isaiah 65:17-25], everyone enjoying the 7th Day "Sabbath" on Earth together and "all flesh" come to worship before HIM [Isaiah 66:23], and there will be "no more death...neither...any more pain" [Revelation 21:4] etc., take place after the "1000 years", after the 2nd Resurrection [resurrection of the wicked], after Satan, sin and sinners are ultimately dealt with in the "lake of fire" which burns upon the whole earth [Revelation 20:7-15] in the Great White Throne Judgment [Revelation 20:11], and then after the re-creation of the Heaven and Earth [being "made new"]. We shall have a City Dwelling [New Jerusalem] and our very own country dwellings in the New Earth.

Just as the week is 6 Days and the 7th of Rest [Genesis 2:2-3; Exodus 20:8-11, etc], so too is to be the 1000 years, a Sabbath of Rest in Heaven, for the Gospel has been preached in the world for 6000 years.

Just as the Land itself was to be worked for 6 years and the 7th year it was to be left alone, so too is to be the 1000 years, a Sabbath of Rest in Heavenly Canaan - The Promised Land. [Exodus 23:10-11]

Just as the slaves worked for 6 years, they were to be set free in the 7th year, so too is it to be in the 1000 years, a Sabbath of Rest in Heaven. [Exodus 21:2; Deuteronomy 15:12]

Just as Moses waited at the base of the Mountain 6 days, and on the 7th he was then called up into the Mount, into the clouds, so too shall we be called upwards. [Exodus 24:16; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17]

Just as Joash was hid in the Temple 6 years, while Athaliah [daughter of Jezebel] reigned, and in the 7th year he was crowned King and came out with an army to slay her, so too will CHRIST JESUS come as KING of Kings and LORD of Lords and HE shall reign, and slay the wicked. [2 Kings 1:3; 2 Chronicles 22:12]

Just as JESUS and the three Disciples [Peter, James and John] after 6 days went up the Mountain of Transfiguration, they saw JESUS transfigured before them standing with Moses and Elijah [the Law and the Prophets, the Resurrected Dead and the Translated Living, types of those to be on Earth at the 2nd Advent; Matthew 17, Mark 9; Luke 9; 2 Peter 1:16].

And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. (Daniel 12:3)
 
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Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Out of context, read one line earlier:

Hebrews 7:11 KJV - If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need [was there] that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

Hebrews 7:12 KJV - For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Which of the Ten Commandments makes men priests, or was given "under" the Levitical priesthood, rather than being spoken by God from Heaven above them all and before there ever was a Levitical priesthood [which was made for a transgressed law]. I know of a Levitical priestly "law" that was given to the order of Aaron, to make of men priests after Levi, but it is not found in the Ten Commandments.

Hebrews 7 reveals the transition from Levitical priesthood of order of Levi/Aaron to the previous Melchizedek which was greater and older.
 
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BABerean2

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Which of the Ten Commandments makes men priests, or was given "under" the Levitical priesthood, rather than being spoken by God from Heaven above them all and before there ever was a Levitical priesthood


Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

You keep trying to put the Sinai covenant in place of the Abrahamic Promise as a part of the New Covenant, in order to make you Sabbath doctrine work.
.
 
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BobRyan

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Gen 26:5 "5 because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.

Because the Gospel does not conflict with the LAW of God "written on the mind and heart"

Hence two simple easy questions that resolve the entire debate.

Today at 11:09 AM #383

(Which of course - must be avoided)
 
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