If you lost your faith.. do you think you would become depressed?

[MehGuy]

I'm certainly not trying to "throw it your faces". I'm trying to do two things: 1. Show that it is not "rational" to hold the beliefs a majority of atheists hold- namely, that we can get something meaningful out of this life absent God. 2. Show that atheism is not "courageous". There's a "woe is me, I would like to believe but alas and alack my intellect will not allow it, and therefore I must brave the wilds of existence and prove that man can get by without God" attitude among a certain class of atheists.

Alright lol, I won't argue about it, just thought it was something humorous to bring up. And not in a way to make you feel bad or anything. Just something to laugh about as a group lol.

1. Well there is no objective meaningfulness, so I guess I would have to agree with you there. But we can still feel meaningfulness in our lives in a subjective sense. Sure it's pointless but it works, and like I said before we have fickle minds.

2. Not really sure what you mean by courageous? As in someone stepping from the objective meaningful world to one that isn't, I'd say yeah there was some courage there.

Not sure what you mean by "get by without God' I see plenty of Atheists doing just fine in life, content with what they have. Is that not getting by? Like I said even if its meaningless, the emotions still come regardless and people get content.


We are probably not going to see Nihilism's potential being taken seriously and met until future mind technologies arise.

 

[Themistocles]

Alright lol, I won't argue about it, just thought it was something humorous to bring up. And not in a way to make you feel bad or anything. Just something to laugh about as a group lol.

1. Well there is no objective meaningfulness, so I guess I would have to agree with you there. But we can still feel meaningfulness in our lives in a subjective sense. Sure it's pointless but it works, and like I said before we have fickle minds.

I would contend that it doesn't work and that it only occasionally appears to work because objective value is so embedded into our culture and our essence that we have a very hard time shucking it off. The modern atheist "gets by", in so far as he gets by, on a remnant he's scarcely aware of.

2. Not really sure what you mean by courageous? As in someone stepping from the objective meaningful world to one that isn't, I'd say yeah there was some courage there.

No. Courage is a term of value. The moment someone thinks to themselves, "I've stepped into this lonely and lonesome breach, with only my own powers to guide me and without any of the easy comforts of dogma" they are falling back on the old categories of value they've abolished. They are assuming, for instance, that truth is an objective good which they are right to have accepted, even at the possible cost to happiness. This is very silly since they are going to annihilated and can't possibly benefit from anything, even truth, which makes their life less happy. The fulfilled nihlist says "there's no value and, really, I'm very valuable for having realized this". To be sure, this is somewhat more honest than the run-of-the-mill atheist who thinks he can get objective value out of rocks and cells, but it's painfully obvious that both views are internally contradictory and no better than ANY theism from a rational standpoint. The perfectly honest atheist says "There is no God. This is neither good nor bad. I am neither miserable nor praiseworthy for accepting this fact. I exist and must do something- it doesn't much matter what- until I expire. And so I will".

Not sure what you mean by "get by without God' I see plenty of Atheists doing just fine in life, content with what they have. Is that not getting by? Like I said even if its meaningless, the emotions still come regardless and people get content.


We are probably not going to see Nihilism's potential being taken seriously and met until future mind technologies arise.

Well, the Christian knows that no one is "doing just fine". Leave aside questions of whether man is "totally depraved"- at the very least, he's separated from his good and his God. And if the Christian is better off, in this world, than the atheist it's because he realizes this and makes the small movements his imperfect faith in God's perfect grace will allow. This is the Christian position at any rate. It is true the atheist isn't jumping off buildings but this does not satisfy the Christian- it's enough that he isn't loving his neighbor.

This is all very serious stuff which is why I didn't respond to your attempt to liven things up but I'd like to say that, despite my tone, I don't disdain atheists. I did once but I don't think you can stay a Christian for very long without feeling, at least for an instant, like Tertullian when he wrote, "I believe, because it is absurd". And then there's the agape love to which we are commanded- which is meant to conquer all and which on some very fine mornings actually seems to. So I wish my atheists brothers and sisters the very best and beg them to excuse my clinical and detached tone as a kind of literary conceit designed to show what a godless man in a godless universe would really sound like.

 

[MehGuy]

I would contend that it doesn't work and that it only occasionally appears to work because objective value is so embedded into our culture and our essence that we have a very hard time shucking it off. The modern atheist "gets by", in so far as he gets by, on a remnant he's scarcely aware of.

Well it's been working for me, even when I was in a period of flashing lethal dosages of Nihilism at my sense of purposefulness.

I'm not sure how much is cultural rather than built in, but even so, if its hard to shuck off it'll most likely stay with them for life, and I think there are plenty of examples of that. But I can agree that we have truly fully acknowledging the extent Nihilism entails. I've just been unable to break it thus far.

If we do start getting better at fully acknowledging Nihilism we'll at least get to the point soon where we'll be able to wire the brain to feel various senses at will. But sadly I don't think that will quite be in our lifetime, though maybe in some extent. For now it's more organic emotional control.

No. Courage is a term of value. The moment someone thinks to themselves, "I've stepped into this lonely and lonesome breach, with only my own powers to guide me and without any of the easy comforts of dogma" they are falling back on the old categories of value they've abolished. They are assuming, for instance, that truth is an objective good which they are right to have accepted, even at the possible cost to happiness. This is very silly since they are going to annihilated and can't possibly benefit from anything, even truth, which makes their life less happy. The fulfilled nihlist says "there's no value and, really, I'm very valuable for having realized this". To be sure, this is somewhat more honest than the run-of-the-mill atheist who thinks he can get objective value out of rocks and cells, but it's painfully obvious that both views are internally contradictory and no better than ANY theism from a rational standpoint. The perfectly honest atheist says "There is no God. This is neither good nor bad. I am neither miserable nor praiseworthy for accepting this fact. I exist and must do something- it doesn't much matter what- until I expire. And so I will".

I agree with this, very well put too. I've wanted to say this to a few Atheists as well. If they are going to knock Christians down, I'll do the same thing when the time is appropriate. Probably old feeling from Atheists I've been burned from in the past lol. But it's fun regardless.


Well when I was using courageous I was speaking in the term of them doing what can be hard for a person, even if it was done in a false pretense, as in it didn't have to be that way. Do I need to feel this way? No? But currently I am able too, and will take it for the enjoyment value.

Well, the Christian knows that no one is "doing just fine". Leave aside questions of whether man is "totally depraved"- at the very least, he's separated from his good and his God. And if the Christian is better off, in this world, than the atheist it's because he realizes this and makes the small movements his imperfect faith in God's perfect grace will allow. This is the Christian position at any rate. It is true the atheist isn't jumping off buildings but this does not satisfy the Christian- it's enough that he isn't loving his neighbor.

Fine, in the Christian perspective it isn't enough. Eh...

This is all very serious stuff which is why I didn't respond to your attempt to liven things up but I'd like to say that, despite my tone, I don't disdain atheists. I did once but I don't think you can stay a Christian for very long without feeling, at least for an instant, like Tertullian when he wrote, "I believe, because it is absurd". And then there's the agape love to which we are commanded- which is meant to conquer all and which on some very fine mornings actually seems to. So I wish my atheists brothers and sisters the very best and beg them to excuse my clinical and detached tone as a kind of literary conceit designed to show what a godless man in a godless universe would really sound like.

Eh I guess it's serious stuff. Which is why I'm currently trying to focus more on art and the like, because I find so many debate topics pointless. I won't declare what I do inherently right, but I'm still able to enjoy it and I guess I can just spend that time until my ultimate death. Maybe I'm at an advantage because I can enjoy sorrow and depression, so maybe my optimism can't or won't be very well received by others.

But I'm not angry at you, you just say it like you see it.

 

[Im_A]

I agree with the fact that God isn't (or at least shouldn't be--another one of those "ideals" I mentioned in my prior post) an alternative to science. However, Science is a system of testing the physical world empirically and measuring that what can be physically observed in some fashion and using logic and rational systems to develop theories of behavior about things in the universe. By definition, Science is not allowed to delve into the area of theology or metaphysics which is where many Atheists fall short of understanding.

The interesting part of your response though is how "cience is a system of testing the physical world empirically and measuring that what can be physically observed in some fashion and using logic and rational systems to develop theories of behavior about things in the universe." when if the attributes of say any theistic god, then by your admission, science can technically be used to figure out theological questions.

 

[FaithPrevails]

I was just asking if the reason they started talking heavily about Nihilism was to get on the nerves of some Atheists and Non-Believers of any other kind that would care I guess lol. I don't mind myself if that was a partial intent, I see Atheists do the same from time to time, and eh hope you have fun.

I like the idea of Christians using things to make other Atheists upset *though not sure if any Atheist here really cares though*


No I don't mind this direction the thread is taking, go deeper and deeper if you want, that's what I do in my free time. Say all you can.

The part I bolded has always intrigued me. Maybe you can shed some light... Atheists will question what a Christian believes and then, when a Christian answers honestly, the Christian will be "accused" (saying that lightly b/c I don't think you're accusing anyone of anything here) of trying to upset the non-believers.

Why is what we believe so troublesome to non-believers? Why is so much offense taken to our position? Is it the "exclusivity" of what we believe that troubles atheists (that I can swallow) or is there truly a tone (judgment??) in how it is said (written, here) - or both?

 

[MehGuy]

The part I bolded has always intrigued me. Maybe you can shed some light... Atheists will question what a Christian believes and then, when a Christian answers honestly, the Christian will be "accused" (saying that lightly b/c I don't think you're accusing anyone of anything here) of trying to upset the non-believers.

Why is what we believe so troublesome to non-believers? Why is so much offense taken to our position? Is it the "exclusivity" of what we believe that troubles atheists (that I can swallow) or is there truly a tone (judgment??) in how it is said (written, here) - or both?

What are you talking about? Are you talking about what you say regarding Nihilism and Atheists? Or what you believe regarding God?

Because all I suggested was that some of the Christians here were using Nihilism as a tool in the hopes of maybe scaring potential converts away *not that we are trying to convert anyone, but people will do what they want with the information they read*, and/or to upset a few Atheists here, who they may have felt they were wronged in whatever way.

If you are asking if we are offended when we hear your testimonials and reasons for believing in God, I'd say for myself at least... it's because I don't really care for the other sides line of reasoning and unable to answer simple questions. I guess it could also be like wearing a hat with stick tied to it pointing forward above your eyes with a Twinkie tied to the end of it. Now matter how much you run you are never going to catch it, even if its just an inch away. If you want my honest answer, not saying it's justified but its how I feel for the most part.


Though I do have a question for you guys... do you think Nihilism can creep into your everyday life? I know you believe in an objective purpose and objective morals, but what about things that you do that are outside of God? Do you deal with them just fine? Do you try to tie God into everything in an attempt to shield proof things from subjective meaningfulness? I'm sure you still face a lot of choices that are not inherently objective, how do you deal with them? How many things do you think you could throw into the Nihilist pile?

 

[FaithPrevails]

What are you talking about? Are you talking about what you say regarding Nihilism and Atheists? Or what you believe regarding God?

I, personally, have not even approached the topics of nihilism and atheism. When asked about my faith, I speak from an *I* standpoint and share what my faith means to me or how I interpret things. I never (yes, I used an absolute) discuss the inconsistencies or fallacies that I see with opposing views.

Because all I suggested was that some of the Christians here were using Nihilism as a tool in the hopes of maybe scaring potential converts away *not that we are trying to convert anyone, but people will do what they want with the information they read*, and/or to upset a few Atheists here, who they may have felt they were wronged in whatever way.

It would seem more to me like the non-believers are the ones that are pushing the nihilism POV. I daresay that anyone here is worried that an atheist might "convert" someone. The fact that you suspect that anyone is and needed to include a disclaimer in your statement above is a bit concerning to me.

If you are asking if we are offended when we hear your testimonials and reasons for believing in God, I'd say for myself at least... it's because I don't really care for the other sides line of reasoning and unable to answer simple questions. I guess it could also be like wearing a hat with stick tied to it pointing forward above your eyes with a Twinkie tied to the end of it. Now matter how much you run you are never going to catch it, even if its just an inch away. If you want my honest answer, not saying it's justified but its how I feel for the most part.

I think it's sad that you see Christianity this way b/c a relationship with Christ doesn't even remotely resemble what you've described above.

Though I do have a question for you guys... do you think Nihilism can creep into your everyday life? I know you believe in an objective purpose and objective morals, but what about things that you do that are outside of God? Do you deal with them just fine? Do you try to tie God into everything in an attempt to shield proof things from subjective meaningfulness? I'm sure you still face a lot of choices that are not inherently objective, how do you deal with them? How many things do you think you could throw into the Nihilist pile?

As a Christian, Christ should be at the center of ALL that we do. So, I don't really know how to respond to the question about what we do "outside of God". If we are doing something outside of God, then we need to fix that.

IMO, subjective meaningfulness for a Christian comes in the form of aligning our will with God's will for our lives. So, instead of shielding ourselves from subjective meaningfulness, it actually becomes the goal. It's why we should/often do stand out from non-believers. We take a different path and aren't afraid to be seen as different b/c of that.

Maybe it's not always as easy or "fun", but it is more rewarding and enriching, IMO. It is my personal opinion that living for oneself and one's own desires solely/primarily is selfish and near-sighted. That doesn't mean I judge others for it, though, or think that they're doomed. I just don't agree with it as an approach to life. I'm not sure how that is a nihilist view - unless I've misunderstood something you've said.

 

[GQ Chris]

I used to believe that one could lose their Salvation, but now I no longer believe that.

However if I did, I wouldn't go into depression, I would just dive right into carnality with millions of other people. My life would be focused on the things of the Earth and this life, material things, casual relationships, which I never found any fulfillment in anyways. It is all chasing after the wind, pointless and empty.

 

[Zoness]

Having redemption does not somehow miraculously/spontaneously rid a person of their flaws or any corruption in their moral compass, though. It's not like we can accept what Christ did for us on the Cross and then simply keep living out a life that isn't Christ-like. To do so is, IMHO, fraudulent and poor witness to those around us.

Right, it seems counterproductive to accept the terms of Christianity but then to not obey its statutes. I am probably more annoyed at the number of people who claim to be Christians but then don't "walk the walk".

I can't and won't dispute your personal experiences. But, I can tell you from my own that very few of the Christians I know personally have ever considered non-believers inferior.

There could be endless debate on this because its subjective for the both of us. I think your initial position on the fence does set you up for failure or success, however.

Whoa, that's a major generalization! Not this Christian! Not even close to what the Christians I know believe!

Right, but I do know its a major and accepted theological position and this fact cannot be denied although I'll admit I am not aware of its penetration in churches. I have to generalize, I can't sit here and articulate responses because there are 40,000 Christian denominations and everyone believes differently. I can make generalizations based on the churches I was raised in and the people I knew personally and that's really all I can go on.

Same attitude I get from plenty of non-Christians. In my field of work, I'm one of the only Christians in town; all the materialists and humanists think they're "better" than me. It doesn't make material or humans inherently bad. It's just how idiots behave!

Well hell they treat me the same way, you are right, its how idiots behave.

 

[FaithPrevails]

Right, it seems counterproductive to accept the terms of Christianity but then to not obey its statutes. I am probably more annoyed at the number of people who claim to be Christians but then don't "walk the walk".

Join the club. lol I won't lie - I know Christianity has its batch of hypocrites. But, again, if becoming a Christian instantaneously made someone perfect/flawless, then I would probably be more frustrated with the hypocrites. I know how difficult it can be, though, to act in a Christ-like manner all the time. Sometimes, it is easier to just let emotions/selfishness take over and behave badly.

That said, my last comment there is why I *try* to do two things:

1. Practice the fruits of the Spirit regularly.
2. Behave as if all someone knows about Jesus/God is what they know about me. Would they want a relationship with Him based on what they observe?

*shrugs* I'm just me, though. I make mistakes and stumble just like the next person. Someone is either going to be understanding and forgive me or they are going to use it as ammunition against me somehow. I can't control others, so I just focus on controlling myself as best as possible.

 

[Zoness]

Join the club. lol I won't lie - I know Christianity has its batch of hypocrites. But, again, if becoming a Christian instantaneously made someone perfect/flawless, then I would probably be more frustrated with the hypocrites. I know how difficult it can be, though, to act in a Christ-like manner all the time. Sometimes, it is easier to just let emotions/selfishness take over and behave badly.

That said, my last comment there is why I *try* to do two things:

1. Practice the fruits of the Spirit regularly.
2. Behave as if all someone knows about Jesus/God is what they know about me. Would they want a relationship with Him based on what they observe?

*shrugs* I'm just me, though. I make mistakes and stumble just like the next person. Someone is either going to be understanding and forgive me or they are going to use it as ammunition against me somehow. I can't control others, so I just focus on controlling myself as best as possible.

The second point is usually the one I am looking at. I understand that everyone has flaws, I have them too. But I don't like being dictated about how I should live my life and edit my worldview to meet someone else's standards when they have their own problems. I guess that aspect just always bugged the crap out of me.

But I understand your goals and points. I just have different ones.